This is driving me nuts...

I have been improving quite a bit the past year with my singing. I can do it now, and it sounds like I'm actually... well, singing. And it's half way pleasing to hear. At least I can stand to listen back and show it to people.

The problem is I still have problems staying in tune as much as I'd like. I'd say on a good day, it's about 85-90% good to go. But there are still those bad days...

Now I've been doing my breathing exercises, and running scales past the point that I hate them, all that stuff, but it still needs to be better. Am I just being impatient and I just need to do more of the same, or are there any little (or big) things I can be improving?

I was taking vocal lessons so I know the foundation is there, but unfortunately I am now having to be a lot tighter with cash and had to stop lessons, so I'm coming here, and I don't want to wait until I can afford lessons again.

I feel I should add that I know I won't ever achieve, nor do I want, complete perfection. But hell, even my idols with "bad" voices like Bob Dylan, Neil Young or Tom Waits sang in tune, and seemingly consistently (using times I've seen them and others live, live recordings, bootlegs, etc.)

singing on tune is the trickiest part for me. and I have good relative pitch when I hear/identify two tones, but it's harder to reproduce it vocally.

a teacher won't help you much with your ear, because it's not technique related, it's your internal brain.

you can try GNU solfege - that's the program's name - to help with basic relative pitch. but for reproducing the {censored} vocally, you want to make a track of various root notes, and try to sing different intervals on top of that top as quickly and accurately as possible. Start with the 3rd and fifths above and below, since they're the most common. Then 2nds and fourths.

What songs are you singing? Are you trying to sing stuff that is beyond your range or do you just have trouble hitting easy notes?

What's your setup - do you use headphones or floor monitors? What are you doing for warm ups? What are you using for backup music?

We need more details and probably some sample MP3's or Youtubes.

Do you take the time to learn and practice the melodies the way you do the scales? I will sing through a melody many times--even very familiar melodies, as singing them yourself is much harder than singing along with a professionally recorded singer. When I find particular trouble spots I'll sing the melody using a single syllable--the word one works well for me but regular scale tones like la, ah, oo, etc., can also work. The point is to remove the pronunciation problems (which are often considerable) to focus strictly on the pitches and their relationships to one another. When you feel that you've nailed the pitches you add back the words.

Working hard on scales and other exercises does not translate immediately into intuitive singing. When it does, great, but more often than not you have to put conscious effort into the singing even after you've done your time in scaleland.

I have the same problem, which came to my attention when the band did a demo CD and I heard myself... mainly it was the passing tones that were off, sustained tones were *usually* masked with liberal doses of vibrato. I got really depressed, then I started taping myself, then I started taking lessons and reading books.

I have a good ear, but bad intonation can also be due to poor support and vowel shaping that affects pitch or perceived pitch. It sounds hokey, but doing that "inner smile" thing, ie lifting the cheeks and sorta doing a narrow smile, can lift a flat note up a little. It also brings the sound forward in the mask..

drugs brah

I can't really help you with the learning part, because all I have ever been needing to do is listen over and over to what I'm gonna sing - then the pitches are in my head.

But I think I can tell you how you know when you've practised enough, maybe - If you have practised enough, there will be no doubt in your mind whether you will hit the note or not. If you doubt your ability to hit the note and feel uncertain, it will probably be off pitch.

I work on pitch by using a microphone plugged into my guitar amplifier so that I can hear myself. I think it is important for me to hear myself if I want to sing in tune. I start with scales and exercises then sing a series of songs of increasing difficulty.

Some of my problem is related to posture. I notice if I stand in front of a mirror and watch myself sing unaccompanied using a microphone / amp, I stand up straight, breathe from my diaphragm, notes are more stable and words better formed.

If you're having trouble with singing higher notes in tune, then its most likely that those notes are being forced/strained. When your voice gets fatigued it gets harder to be consistently in tune.

If its extreme low notes then probably too low for your voice and you need to adjust the song.

However if its out of tune throughout your entire range then you're probably not hearing the notes properly. You have to first listen to the note, visualize the note in your head, then sing it. You can also try playing the note on the piano repeatedly, while singing that note repeatedly as well and try to match the same pitch as close as possible. Repetition is probably the best remedy. And if you're having trouble matching the change (or interval) in notes then you could try stringing all the notes together using glissando/slides. You can slowly and gradually do this, get use to it, and then take out the glissandos completely afterward.

Also another thing worth mentioning, you can try to assess your acoustic environment and see if its affecting your singing. You can try to switch locations and see how it affects your singing as well.

I have the same problem, which came to my attention when the band did a demo CD and I heard myself... mainly it was the passing tones that were off, sustained tones were *usually* masked with liberal doses of vibrato. I got really depressed, then I started taping myself, then I started taking lessons and reading books. I have a good ear, but bad intonation can also be due to poor support and vowel shaping that affects pitch or perceived pitch. It sounds hokey, but doing that "inner smile" thing, ie lifting the cheeks and sorta doing a narrow smile, can lift a flat note up a little. It also brings the sound forward in the mask..

Yes, the two biggest problems for me are passing tones and vowel shaping. A sustained note is no problem, but those quick-touch notes on the way to other notes are a nightmare--especially as they often occur on words like a or an or the or but that have little vowel support. These notes require a lot of attention, and they are always the most vulnerable during performance.

On vowel shaping, let me say only that I'm from Joisey, where mangling vowels is the official state pastime. Correcting into pure vowel sounds and making them habitual is always a work in progress.

I had/have the same problem on quick passing notes, especially on tunes where there are a lot of lyrics crammed into a verse that doesn't have very many sustained notes. If it was a song for a performance, I would take the melody line and practice the notes, but replace the lyrics with an "ah" or "oh" sound until I was comfortable enough to put the lyrics back in. My old voice coach was a stickler about this. I remember having to sing lines of songs over and over again until each little passing note was in tune.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

First off for an example of what I'm talking about go to: http://www.soundclick.com/practicesongs

Those are just songs I record to practice singing, recording etc. so not necessarily what I consider top notch.

The song Between the Bars is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I recorded that in one take, singing and playing, and I feel it is just awful. Out of tune at parts, especially the chorus, and I messed up the second verse because I blanked on some lyrics. This is what I would consider me at close to my worst. Definitely not to a point where I would perform this for someone.

Jersey Jack - I have slowed it down and started going over the melody over and over and over again with piano or guitar for songs to really get it down, and that is starting to help already. Before I would learn the melody by singing along to the recording, and then start putting it together while playing guitar along with it. I can see how that would make it harder to focus just on the vocals. Forgetting about adding lyrics to the notes is making it a bit easier too.

ido1957 - I am pretty sure all the songs I'm doing are within my range. If there are notes I struggle with I transpose the key so I can hit them. For some of the higher ones I might have to sing it a little louder to hit it, but I never feel I'm pushing or straining.

When I practice the song, as I said before, I tend to learn lyrics/melody, and the accompaniment, then put it together but perhaps I've been doing that too quickly. When I record I do the backing first, the do vocals, and I use headphones to record. For practicing it's just me in my room, no mics/monitors or anything.

Also, I've realized while I know good technique, I tend to not follow it sometimes to get the sounds I want. For example, Between the Bars, I'm not projecting much and singing more from the throat to get a more delicate sound which I'm sure doesn't help, but not every song calls for a full, powerful vocal sound, with perfectly shaped vowels and such. Though clearly it seems to not be helping any.

Anyways, sorry for the novel I just wrote, but hopefully the stuff I added might make it easier to zero in on what I need to work on.

- First takes are not the best indicator unless you have warmed up nicely.

- You have a great tone and nice high range, I think you're way too hard on yourself

- The highest few notes are flat, but I think you can reach them with a little more practice.

- If I had to rate the pitch I'd give you at least 90% the tone 110%

- From your post above it sounds like you're doing everything right, so I think it's just practice makes perfect

- Be nice to hear more from you in the future - hope you'll hang out here a bit.

- You gotta increase the volume on your mp3's they are really hard to hear :-) .

Thank you very much ido1957. Definitely helped to build my confidence a bit. I guess it's just more practice and such. And yes, always more practice and I plan on sticking around. Next on the list is possibly throwing up some original stuff.

I recorded another thing because I wanted to see how my voice would sit in a recording of heavier stuff.

http://www.soundclick.com/practicesongs for anyone who is interested. The song No Angel or Demon.

Again, a few pretty obvious mess ups but this wouldn't be a final take either. This was more practice and experimenting. The process was warming up, then one take to get everything adjusted (levels, compression, etc.) and then two or three takes until there was something I could live with so I could mix it down. I also only really learned the melody last night, so I KNOW I can do better with more time on this one, just wanted to throw something else up and threw this together quickly. Hence the not so great guitar solo as well. This time I also I recorded vocals and guitar separately. That felt a little weird.

(A little background...I'm a long time fretless bass player. I got the singing bug a couple years ago, lessons for x-Mas that helped a lot. Now I'm booking a solo guitar-singer thing.)

Concentration level:On bass, If I choose to, I can cruise through a tune, a set, a whole night without really thinking, yet it'll still sound good. At least so far, singing is the opposite of that. For my intonation-tone-groove to be spot on, I've got to really and totally have my head in the game. It's like playing good golf but without the opportunity to walk to the next ball. It's just "swing", "swing", "swing".

Yup. Totally exhausting. I sure hope it gets better.......