Voltan

yes, maybe the way to record/transmit what im hearing?

keetee? thank you! huge info in that link. the d;screte 4060 core as a pair look intriguing...

Why don't you just point an MD421 at it from a couple of feet back and see what it sounds like?

 

I wouldn't use a shotgun mic because I don't want a tight, focussed, pickup for the frequencies above ~2kHz, which is basically the definition of a shotgun mic. I want to hear the entire gong shimmer.

 

By the way, both the guys using the gong I work with like to get very subtle effects out of it, although this one is only about three feet across. Think trippy psychedelia. But it's loud enough that we can hear it anywhere on stage, which is why the drum overheads work. The gong sits centered behind the drum kits. Or maybe it's the snare mics.....I never really gave it much thought beyond making sure it sounded good. Maybe I should.

here is a major problem... sound guys that are micing for what THEY want... in numerous poasts i point out that im using a technique that apoears to be something new... something no one has done, or at least capitalized upon... and it doesnt get picked up micing the gong like you do for everybody else because a 421 set a few feet back that works just fine for john bonhams gong style will NOT work for the completely different approach im using... a mic set at 5 feet away picks up what you hear at 5 feet away... and is in a completely different universe than what i hear at 1 foot away... and again not what is heard 20 feet away... i need to be able to work inside those distances/sound fields... a suggestion to mic as one would for a classical string quartet has opened up different mic arrangements... i want to bring selections from the up close world where i sit, to the folks in the back row... i understand from the start that these instruments produce vibrations that no sound system or mic is capable of capturing or reproducing, but i would like to get as close as i can...

i would also like to thank each of you for your input... im not a sound tech, my perspective is from the instrument... im just getting started on this little adventure and youve all helped me understand my challenges so much more clearly. a contact made while playing the last festival has offered, among several things, full use of a symphonic recording studio in miami... it may be time to get busy?

no pressure... im on stage in less than three weeks with this...

lots of good info and everyone has given me much to consider... like making sound is a lot different mind set than capturing sound... i got a good deal on a lewitt 540 ldc and a shure sm89 shotgun that has critical (for my purposes) freq response... now to find s decent pair of ldc’s or three, and i at least have an idea of why im beginning where i am... onward through the fog...

thank you.

v.

common sense is deleting threads? theres a ton of info in those old threads, n00b...

thank you... indeed as most people use gongs for a “crash” effect, i play them a bit differently... now im wondering if its the stereo capsule picking up the low freqs or if its the mic proximity allowing the sound to blossom? time to set up again and check...

thank you for your responses... each of you helped and i appreciate your time and ideas.

B. yes, im contacting two studios in tallahassee, which is only an hour away... one owes me a favor or two for some tracks... i also understand that its their mics in a room thats familiar to them... part of my dilemma is that im looking for versatility, as in the multi patterned 414 and others, and the rabbit hole gets increasingly deep... sometimes the simplest, most obvious, is the hardest to see... i know i should just let it be, but i cant shake the thought of hearing “ hey man, i couldnt really pull up those highs so i just bumped up the bass and panned back and forth with a bunch of echo and some chorus... it sounded sick, bro...”.

Maybe you should get Mickey Hart to design a pickup for you. I'm fairly certain you will find flaws with the frequency response graph for every microphone. His "Beam" is flat from 20Hz to 20kHz. The only other alternative is to point mics at your drums and listen to the result.

technically, i guess they are drums... by classical definition... and if i had a box full of mics i would do just that... the graph on the crown pzm's is about as flat as one could expect... but the performance doesnt always match the graph... which is why im here asking silly questions,,, and by the way, 20 to 20K doesnt come close to capturing what frequencies these babies put out, plus putting anything on the gongs would change the way they resonate...... ( this is a major reason why i prefer small intimate groups as opposed to the large groups im being asked to play )

try experimenting with mics you own now?..

ive tried everything i have, which isnt much... ive a couple samson cl3's which might work to spot mic bowls, a couple crown pzm-6d's and an old mxl ldc thats way too bright and harsh... everything else is vocal live performance or drum kit mics which dont have the frequency response or sensitivity i need for this..

how/what do you set for a string quartet?

yes, understand that money isnt the cure, but improperly mic’ed is where i am without spending some... if i can mic this up properly for less money, im good with that.

this isnt my territory... i can tell you the difference between the sound of an accute or oblique arc with the same mallet on my gongs but choosing the mic to capture the subtle differences is out of my comfort zone. what im doing is a little different than what you may have been exposed to in the past... that said, my needs are a bit more exacting and defined... some are happy with a kick drum mic or hand held vocal mic for a gong and if it gets them where they are headed, im all for it! my dilemma is working with quiet instruments in an environment with a naturally high sound “floor”. extracting the target sound and placing that specific vibrating air bubble in the chest of the people in the back of the auditorium...

 

You question is interesting. First off, my experience mic'ing multi percussion instruments has been in theater (pit band) scenarios. The percussion instruments are in a fixed position and stay consistent for the run of the show. Usually three/four mics (sm57's) are used and are placed around the percussion area with one of the mics placed at "head height" adjacent to the percussionist that all of the "air percussion" ie; slide whistle, bird whistle, etc.

Your situation in an "improv setting" does bring up a different challenge however with all "improv" scenarios in the true sense there is some "artistic license" for latitude.

I have found it very easy to over-think mic choices as an improperly placed 'high-end" (expensive) mic will not get the job done...

 

I have another show/musical coming up in early February where the band/orchestra may be on-stage. If the accompanying group is indeed "on stage" I plan on mic'ing the percussionist(s) as I normally do but will also try suspending one or two Shure MX202B/C choral/condenser mics above the percussion area and toggle back and forth between both mic schemes to see what works best.

 

My mic'ing technique for a string quartet is different.

please pardon my sm57 remark, it was not directed at you, timing is everything... they work great on percussion, theyre a staole in my drum mic kits, but the gongs produce frequencies that the 57’s just cant reproduce, or maybe they would?... on both ends of the auditory spectrum ... id love to hear the feb contrasts in mic sounds!

Why don't you just point an MD421 at it from a couple of feet back and see what it sounds like?

 

I wouldn't use a shotgun mic because I don't want a tight, focussed, pickup for the frequencies above ~2kHz, which is basically the definition of a shotgun mic. I want to hear the entire gong shimmer.

 

understood... which is why i stipulated that the one im using has an a/b stereo capsule blended into the signal as well as the tight focused sound on the higher frequencies that i have to have to make what im doing audible above two or three feet away...

 

By the way, both the guys using the gong I work with like to get very subtle effects out of it, although this one is only about three feet across. Think trippy psychedelia. But it's loud enough that we can hear it anywhere on stage, which is why the drum overheads work. The gong sits centered behind the drum kits. Or maybe it's the snare mics.....I never really gave it much thought beyond making sure it sounded good. Maybe I should.

thank you!

this is the general direction... im wondering with the demand for such a wide dynamic range and frequencies, if it might be best to approach them like a string quartet? large d condensers set in a field with spot/area focused small d condensers for the elusive highs. part of my issue here is i have a rudimentary hands on experience with live sound gear from a working musicians perspective. my home recording mics, an old mxl ldc and samson cl3 sdc’s probably are a bit short... i cant go to a locker and pick up a md421 to try... (although i doubt id be happy with a 30 to 17k freq response to begin with even though im a senn fan...). everything ive read seems to lead in circles... part of which may stem from people not understanding because they “already know” what they think im doing and it just isnt so... my footprint is about 13 to 14 feet wide by about 7 to 8 feet deep, 82 inches from top of tallest gong stand to the bowls resting on the floor. mics set to the center of the outer gongs would place them at about 7 feet apart. a two day immersion in recent micing ideas leads me to a basic understanding that a low self noise mic is best for picking out the gentle nuances and subtleties, im unsure as to how important multiple pattern mics are but versatility is usually a plus. se electronics 4400a, rode nt2, or nt2000, akg c414xls st, lewitt lct 640 ts... im leaning towards the lewitt for lowest self noise and pattern control ability. possibly mxl v67n for sdc’s? (having omni and cardioid elements). looking at the offerings of mics at the venues and festivals made me understand that if im going to do this properly, ive got to supply my own mics... half a dozen sm57’s probably arent going to do it...

and no, simply because of the name? shotgun mic? or the ability to pick up high frequencies at a distance? i had a couple sound techs try to mic up a 48 inch chau with a pencil condenser about half an inch off the face about 3 inches from the outer edge...

Well, the reason *I* wouldn't choose a shotgun mic is because it's a shotgun mic. (Is that answer simple enough? LOL)

 

As for gongs, I think you're going to have a hard time finding anybody who regularly mics gongs.

 

One of my acts uses a gong, but I don't bother mic'ing it. The drum overheads pick it up just fine. PVM 480s, a small-diaphragm condenser.

the shotgun im using has an a/b stereo mic in the body as well... the front element does a great job picking up the highs that get lost two feet away from the face of the instrument and the stereo capsule picks up the resonance of the field... it has sensitivity adjustments on the mics separately so i can dial in a good mix... works great for recording.... this isnt easy, which is why im pretty quick to dismiss thoughts to the contrary... forget everything you think you know about gongs and playing them... it seriously isnt like that...

right, i understand that... i get that nobody needs to mic the bashing clanger of a gong smasher... that is not playing a gong. most peoples idea of a gong is two hundred seventy five measures of rest, a whole note at the end, pack it up and go home... i get it... but thats not me... i carry a 52 inch gong around not because it can be louder than a jet engine, but because a gong that large allows me to play with the nuances of sound that are so gentle and quiet, yet still move enough air to be heard... softly... the magic is in the ethereal decay of resonance... the timbre of the higher frequencies, the subtle differences in sound produced by different weights in mallets... the dynamics run from whisper to literally jet engine spls... frequencies go from below to above human hearing... i looked at the c414s and didnt like self noise levels compared to the lewitt 640 ts... actually i liked all the specs on the lewitt best so far, but specs dont tell all the story... i have a couple miktek sdc pencil type mics for spot micing the bowls, maybe a couple more or try the rode sdc? i need the punch of the lows, but what ive found live is that there isnt enough high freq to give the definition im seeking... what im doing with gongs is different... what i need reflects that...

i’ll remember to keep the questions simple in here... thanks...

actually the sound of the small diaphragm condensers on the q8 suck for gong recording... theyre pretty good for voice or acoustic guitar but they have no definition from any distance and are quickly over saturated at close range. i use the stereo shotgun mic that zoom has available... it is a stereo shotgun mic... why would you not choose a stereo shotgun? why not a ribbon? the active ribbons have super low self noise and have plenty of air... im not sure you have a good understanding of what im trying to capture here... i need full definition and complete dynamic range... the c214’s look good on the frequency specs... how do they compare on self noise to something like the se voodoo II? active ribbon... im micing 5 gongs, 13 singing bowls, 3 spinning kyeezees, various elephant claw bells, several flutes and a hang...

may i ask what experience you have micing gongs?

not trying to be argumentative, but your first two sentences tell me you are just guessing... i appreciate your wanting to help, but id rather not guess if im going to invest in decent gear... thank you.

upon occasion, the need for being mic'd is becoming an unfortunate necessity. rather than be at the mercy of a production crew that may or may not fully grasp the nature of the beast, what are my options in mics that are capable of capturing the nuance and air of these instruments in a live setting? one challenge is that recently ive been in improv situations with numerous musicians on everything from harmonica, didgeridoos, guitar, djembes and various percussionists... completely outside my comfort zone, yet proving to be insanely provocative and productive in breaking imaginary boundaries.

i stumbled upon a recording mic that works wonderfully well, in solo situations... a zoom q8 with a stereo shotgun mic, it captures the highs of the surface work, timbre etc, and the stereo mic seems to pic up the resonance and surrounding air... im happy with what that system captures ( to my tired ears ) so i know its possible... so, akg c214's? ribbon mics? kinda sorta looking at this thing like mic'ing up the air around a string quartet. much appreciated...

most awesome! I sit for hours playing gongs and singing bowls. ive found a good base is key... I use a moon meditation seat system that's pretty comfortable sitting lotus even for extended sessions. but not supporting an instrument either. definitely considering a single tumba.

#s 2 & 3 I'm figuring goes with the territory as well but then I'm not known for staying anywhere near inside the box for long.

​now, #4... everything is relative... ive been looking at one piece, no neck joint and they seem to run around 1800 to 2200 u.s.d. for what I'm assuming to be decent mid level instrument?

 

A set? No. But I did play drums in music class back in high school (a million years ago). Back then you started on the snare so I played that. You only progressed to more drums in subsequent semesters but I dropped music after taking the class in which I played snare.

cool, so you know the basics... playing a kit takes some limb separation/ independence... kinda like rubbing your belly and patting your head at the same time... no real biggie, just takes some longer than others like anything else in life... a factor to consider is which joints are affected... getting behind a kit for a few days or even better, a few weeks is going to tell you a lot more than any of us...

and keep playing that guitar ( as well as adding slide) too! just more tools in your workshop...

have you ever sat behind a set of drums?