Fender Silverface Champ

[Help!I'maRock!]

My ceramic speakers are noticeably louder (than alnico) at all volume settings.

 

that makes sense too.

[jerry_picker]

BTW the "Vibro Champ" is a different design entirely than the blackface or tweed Champ. They sound better at lower volumes and are probably a better practice amp that a true Champ.

 

However, the Vibrochamp is identical to the Silverface Champ in all ways save for the tremolo rider circuit. Both use the AA764 circuit, which incidentally is also the circuit in the Blackface Champ. While there may be subtle differences in the values of a few components between early Blackface Champs and later Silverface Champs, they are nevertheless essentially the same design, and certainly not "entirely different".

 

The 5E1 and 5F1 are indeed different from the AA764.

[Citizen_Insane]

My buddy has a 1969 SF Vibro Champ w/ original NOS tubes and I honestly like my Vox AC4 better. Maybe the 8" speaker is just too small for the Champ, but it always sounded a bit too harsh and never had any low end.

[jerry_picker]

My buddy has a 1969 SF Vibro Champ w/ original NOS tubes and I honestly like my Vox AC4 better. Maybe the 8" speaker is just too small for the Champ, but it always sounded a bit too harsh and never had any low end.

 

Maybe it needs new tubes, a cap job, and a speaker upgrade?

 

(If tubes are truly "NOS", they can't be original to the amp. NOS means "new old stock", as in never used.)

[Electric Blues]

Anyone have any tips for an amp kit that would be exactly like the Champ? I'm thinking building it as a head instead of a combo would be cool.

[thunder100]

 

As a practice amp played clean it sounds kind of muddy...especially when the guitar doesn't have single coils. BTW the "Vibro Champ" is a different design entirely than the blackface or tweed Champ. They sound better at lower volumes and are probably a better practice amp that a true Champ.

 

 

Sorry I disagree apart the single coil sentence.

Yes depending on speakers(and only them) even a decent Champ(orVC) may sound a bit muddy at volume 3-4(bedroom level) when played with a hot humbucker.

 

From sound apart the tremolo/vibrato(if one needs) they sound identical if the tubes,caps speakers are identical

 

tried out several times with a friend having a 72 Champ(mine is a 74 Vibro Champ)

 

But as they take pedals so well(my amp is in dirty love with the OCD) they are also very responsive on tubes

 

Roland

[jerry_picker]

tried out several times with a friend having a 72 Champ(mine is a 74 Vibro Champ) But as they take pedals so well(my amp is in dirty love with the OCD) they are also very responsive on tubes Roland

 

Yep.

Same amp...AA764.

See:http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showpost.php?p=36426732&postcount=27

[EllenGtrGrl]

Champs are a love/hate thing with me. Waaayyy back in 1982, I saw a local guitar hero doing a gig at the county fair. The amp was miced. He used a stock, black, mid 70s Strat, and a just a dirt box, and a chorus. The Champ's volume was all the way up. He had a HUGE, driving, hard rock tone. It was awesome!!

 

But, I have yet to play a Champ, that approaches the tone he got out of his. They've always sounded kind of flubbly and weak to me, Still, I wouldn't mind buying one, and giving it a try, if they didn't cost so much! I can see paying $150, or even $200 for a Champ, but NOT $300 or $400!!

[Mister Crow]

I remember going into a local music store in the early to mid 1980's, and against the wall he had about 7 or 8 silverface Champs all lined up with price tags of $75 to $85 dollars. Even though I'm not a huge fan of Champs, I'd love to take about 4 to 6 of them and build myself that cool Harrison wall o' Champs from the Bangladesh concert.

[jerry_picker]

I remember going into a local music store in the early to mid 1980's, and against the wall he had about 7 or 8 silverface Champs all lined up with price tags of $75 to $85 dollars. Even though I'm not a huge fan of Champs, I'd love to take about 4 to 6 of them and build myself that cool Harrison wall o' Champs from the Bangladesh concert.

 

[john_bircheson]

I've had one for many years. They're good amps. I tried out 1 or 2 more recently, and also abed them agains a tiny terror and an epi valve jr (I realize these amps aren't really meant to be compared). The champ actually had a little bit more complex (corksniffer term I know) tone, but there was a punchiness or roundness about the epi valve jr I preferred. With an eq in front of the VJ you can basically have the samp amp for much cheaper. For what it's worth I don't really crank either so I can't comment on that.

[ESchmidt]

I just bought a silverface champ. Sounds excellent clean and slightly broken up. I paid $179 at guitar center, but it could use a new speaker.

[stratfan7]

there's a '79 Champ with a Jensen Mod 8" speaker on ebay for $279. should I go for it, or wait for a lower priced one?

[Help!I'maRock!]

 

I just bought a silverface champ. Sounds excellent clean and slightly broken up. I paid $179 at guitar center, but it could use a new speaker.

 

 

a few years ago i saw a thrashed Vibro Champ at GC for $500, and they wouldn't budge on the price. nice score.

[guitarcapo]

However, the Vibrochamp is identical to the Silverface Champ in all ways save for the tremolo rider circuit. Both use the AA764 circuit, which incidentally is also the circuit in the Blackface Champ. While there may be subtle differences in the values of a few components between early Blackface Champs and later Silverface Champs, they are nevertheless essentially the same design, and certainly not "entirely different". The 5E1 and 5F1 are indeed different from the AA764 .

 

That was the distinction I was making. With later Champs you've got a separate bass and treble control in there...and the standard blackface tone stack. Those sound less muddy at low volumes than the earlier Champs. Still nothing to write home about in my opinion...

[stratfan7]

http://cgi.ebay.com/1979-Fender-Champ-Silverface-Excellent_W0QQitemZ320422145342QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a9aa5ed3e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

 

Does this look good to you guys?

[guitarcapo]

By now I might want to list all the mods I settled on in my quest for a better sounding tweed Champ design. I started with a basic 5E1 Champ circuit (with the choke)and through trial and error found new values that make for an amp that isn't muddy at low volume and has smoother drive tones when cranked.

 

Here's what I did:

 

1. Reduced the input resistor on input 1 from 68K to 20K, leave the 68K resistor on input 2 alone.

 

2. At the first gain stage of V1, the 5E1 and 5F1 designs differ. The 5E1 uses a 25uf/25v cap as a cathode bypass cap and the 5F1 doesn't use one at all.

I installed a 3.3 uF cap across the 1.5K cathode bypass resistor in series with a 100K pot in order to add or remove it from the circuit. This reduces gain a little from the 5E1 circuit but adds more than the 5F1 if opened up. Remember we reduced the input resistor value so we don't need all the gain that the 5E1 design gives...and there will be other mods to increase gain later in the circuit. I usually have this cap active in the circuit when I'm playing the amp. But sometimes if the amp sounds a little too bright or with some pedals I'll use the pot to disconnect it.

 

3. Add a treble bypass cap across the volume pot. You can play with different values here but something like a standard .022uF. I added a toggle switch here too to add or remove it...but I find that most of the time I leave it on. If your amp is maxed at "12" it does nothing, but at lower volumes I find that it is a must to have that sucker on.

 

4. Add a cathode bypass cap at the second gain stage of V1. I put another 3.3uF cap across the 1.5K resistor there...This increases gain a bit more. Both the 5F1 and 5E1 designs don't use one here

 

5. Remove the negative feedback loop coming off the speaker to the cathode of the second gain stage of V1 entirely. I played with different resistor values and maybe putting a variable resistor control (presence control) here...but it always sounded better totally removed....and I didn't want to add another knob on top.

 

6.With all of these mods we don't need a cathode bypass cap on the power tube! The gain increases obtained from step 1,3,4,and 5 now allow us to remove the cap from the cathode at the power tube entirely. I also increased the resistor value there from 470 to 660 which will reduce gain a little here. The power tube distortion is a lot smoother compressed fuller and complex with this mod at high volumes.

 

The speaker I use is a 10" Weber that's 3.2 ohm ceramic magnet and rated at 15 watts. I believe the model number is 10F100T. Ferromax Vintage Series.

I tried a lot of different speakers of different sizes, wattage and manufacture...but this one did the best job for me. The 3.2 ohm version made a lot of difference over the 4ohm. Mine has the ribbed cone...you can order it without the ribbed cone but I never tried that. (10F100...leave off the "T")

 

I own lots of amps. Most are in my music room but this one is in my bedroom and I use it for playing while watching t.v. It takes pedals great and I sometimes use it at open mic nights with a microphone on it to the PA. Nice and light with a great sound. It has more bass and a better overdriven sound than a Vibro Champ. I think the beauty is that the amp doesn't have that tone stack in the circuit like the AA764 circuit. By using things like the volume pot bypass cap mod and removing the negative feedback loop and smoothing out the increases in gain better, you avoid the insertion losses of the tone stack. The amp doesn't inhibit the natural tone of your guitar as much along the way of amplifying the signal. I love the amp now...I really should make a schematic of it. There was a lot of sweat and trial and error getting it here. It still roars with a great sound cranked...but has a beautiful clean tone too.

[guitarcapo]

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1979-Fender-Champ-Silverface-Excellent_W0QQitemZ320422145342QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a9aa5ed3e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 Does this look good to you guys?

 

 

 

Seems about right as far as price (if it doesn't jump up from bidding) But honestly I sometimes think that getting a new Super Champ XD on sale or used (there was one that was a new but demo model at GC for $225 I saw last week) might be a better option. It's 15 watts (instead of 6) and has tube preamp and power tube stages. 10" speaker instead of 8" (Italian made Jensen) Foot switchable between clean and overdrive channels...16 voicings...plus some modeling features you can use or not like reverb, vibrato, delay, flanger.

 

If you don't like the idea of using the digital stuff...just bypass it. You're still getting something close to a Princeton in terms of power and sound without that stuff.

 

O.k. so the rectifier is solid state and it isn't PTP wired and it doesn't have the vinatge mojo. But at the end of the day it's probably not going to have issues like filter caps needing replacement...and I'll take a real Jensen 10" over that 8" "Mod" speaker any day. It's the same price as a Silverface Champ roughly and you get lots more of features including a warranty.

Sometimes I think all this vintage worship gets in the way of some nice amps being made today.

 

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[stratfan7]

 

 

 

 

i'll have to consider that super champ. The $25 speaker in the ebay one doesnt seem too good.

[Wyatt]

 

Seems about right as far as price (if it doesn't jump up from bidding) But honestly I sometimes think that getting a new Super Champ XD on sale or used (there was one that was a new but demo model at GC for $225 I saw last week) might be a better option. It's 15 watts (instead of 6) and has tube preamp and power tube stages. 10" speaker instead of 8" (Italian made Jensen) Foot switchable between clean and overdrive channels...16 voicings...plus some modeling features you can use or not like reverb, vibrato, delay, flanger. If you don't like the idea of using the digital stuff...just bypass it. You're still getting something close to a Princeton in terms of power and sound without that stuff. O.k. so the rectifier is solid state and it isn't PTP wired and it doesn't have the vinatge mojo. But at the end of the day it's probably not going to have issues like filter caps needing replacement...and I'll take a real Jensen 10" over that 8" "Mod" speaker any day. It's the same price as a Silverface Champ roughly and you get lots more of features including a warranty. Sometimes I think all this vintage worship gets in the way of some nice amps being made today.

 

 

Totally incomparable. Apples to Oranges

 

A vintage, all-analog, handwired, 6-watt tube amp versus a modern 15-watt, SS/digital/tube hybrid amp with a tube power amp. The XD is a hybrid, the preamp is mostly solid-state analog with 26 digital voices. There isn't a single tube used until right before the power amp. For all purposes is a hybrid amp -- SS preamp, tube power amp -- with a twist, a digital modeling tone stack and DSP effects.

 

The rest of the argument is scare tactics.

 

There hasn't been a real Jensen speaker made in nearly 35 years, and the MOD series is easily as well respected as the so-called RI's they make.

 

And replacing filter caps and tubes in a tube amp aren't "issues" but maintenance. Just like replacing the oil or tires on a car. If maintained a SF Champ can last for a century, many have lasted at least half that long already. An XD? Not very user serviceable.

 

For the OP, I own two Champs a '68 and '78. The '68 was always a little dull sounding, it's now been heavily modded (which it is a great platform for), but the '78 is a great, full sounding amp for people looking for simple BF/SF "Fender Tone" at household levels. These days, unless I go out to jam or gig (which is rare), I do 90% of all my playing on my Champs, they just just the perfect household output.

 

Don't buy anything just because it's old, neat or tubes. Buy what fills your needs.

[stratfan7]

 

Totally incomparable. Apples to Oranges A vintage, all-analog, handwired, 6-watt tube amp versus a modern 15-watt, SS/digital/tube hybrid amp with a tube power amp. The XD is a hybrid, the preamp is mostly solid-state analog with 26 digital voices. There isn't a single tube used until right before the power amp. For all purposes is a hybrid amp -- SS preamp, tube power amp -- with a twist, a digital modeling tone stack and DSP effects. The rest of the argument is scare tactics. There hasn't been a real Jensen speaker made in nearly 35 years, and the MOD series is easily as well respected as the so-called RI's they make. And replacing filter caps and tubes in a tube amp aren't "issues" but maintenance. Just like replacing the oil or tires on a car. If maintained a SF Champ can last for a century, many have lasted at least half that long already. An XD? Not very user serviceable. For the OP, I own two Champs a '68 and '78. The '68 was always a little dull sounding, it's now been heavily modded (which it is a great platform for), but the '78 is a great, full sounding amp for people looking for simple BF/SF "Fender Tone" at household levels. These days, unless I go out to jam or gig (which is rare), I do 90% of all my playing on my Champs, they just just the perfect household output. Don't buy anything just because it's old, neat or tubes. Buy what fills your needs.

 

 

 

 

So do you think the one in the ebay link I posted is a good buy for $279?

[guitarboyled]

What does the Vibro stand for? Is it a vibrato effect or a reverb?

[Help!I'maRock!]

 

What does the Vibro stand for? Is it a vibrato effect or a reverb?

 

 

obvious answer is obvious.

[stratfan7]

The auction's counting down! do I go for it or not? (link posted earlier)

[Wyatt]

 

What does the Vibro stand for? Is it a vibrato effect or a reverb?

 

 

Tremolo.

 

Leo called in Vibrato to compete with Magnatone, which featured real pitch-shifting tube vibrato.