30th Anniversary of Disco Sucks

[halfnote]

I hate to see this debate continue but I'd be lapse if I didn't make the point that many people hate things not just for what they are/seem to be but for the people associated with them.

The relavent comparison here is rap/hip-hop.

One of the biggest markets for rap is white kids in the suburbs who have nothing to do with the original creators of hip-hop, so not all people of any color hate those of other colors but there are a lotta people who dislike rap because most of the artists are not their preferred color.

[Jotown]

 

As I say - I think any black person who hated disco wouldn't have been comfortable showing up at an event like that, particularly in a place like Chicago where racism IS rampant. Nevertheless, I knew plenty of black teens who hated disco, and didn't mind saying so in the environment where I grew up (where the races were in large part very secure with each other).

Well, I really doubt that there was a hord of angry black kids on the South Side of Chicago who really wanted to be there. In fact, those black kids were dancing to the music on the records that the white kids blew up.

 

This thread was particularly about the Disco Sucks riot and its anniversary. What was true in the southwest just wasn't true in the norheast; and it still isn't (red states blue states). The rally, the riot was in Chicago; a city much like Detroit. Lester Bangs was talking about NY and reporting on the attitude there.

 

Your perspective is valid, but you really should try to enlarge it to contain the perspectives of people who were actually there at that time.

[Lee Flier]

Maybe not the core reason, but a big part of it IMO.

 

We'll just have to disagree on that.

 

This thread was particularly about the Disco Sucks riot and its anniversary.

 

I thought it was about the movement in general. People around the country were wearing Disco Sucks buttons to school and protesting rock and jazz stations that turned disco. Posters in this thread were asking specifically "why disco was so hated."

 

If you consider this thread to be ONLY about the riot, then I have no further comment. I wasn't there. I was trying to answer a broader question and I think I've made my point. If others want to paint the hatred of disco as being all about race, they can keep on with that delusion - there are much better reasons to hate it.

[kurdy]

 

I hate to see this debate continue but I'd be lapse if I didn't make the point that many people hate things not just for what they are/seem to be but for the people associated with them. The relavent comparison here is rap/hip-hop. One of the biggest markets for rap is white kids in the suburbs who have nothing to do with the original creators of hip-hop, so not all people of any color hate those of other colors but there are a lotta people who dislike rap because most of the artists are not their preferred color.

 

 

It's tough to separate rap from the people associated with it, because a lot of the subject matter in rap/hip-hop is very specific to a particular group of inner-city african-americans, often glorifying a seedier side of their lifestyle. While this may be the main selling point for a lot of white suburban teens, I can see how it can also turn a good number of people off to the music as well. That isn't necessarily racism--it's just that it may be tougher for someone to understand rap who may not come from that same environment.

 

And I think that's the thing that seperates rap/hip-hop from disco, and why it's proven to be more than a passing fad. It's so deeply entrenched in the culture that surrounds it, that the two are basically one and the same. There's an entire generation now that was born into the culture. It's much more than just a "scene", like disco was, where you could simply step out of your polyester suit and go to back to work. I think that's a big reason why rap has endured while disco hasn't.

[Jotown]

If others want to paint the hatred of disco as being all about race, they can keep on with that delusion - there are much better reasons to hate it.

Again Lee; nobody has said it was all about race, so I am not sure why you keep repeating something that nobody has said (unless it is just a straw man thing that you are trying to do)

 

There are many reasons why people hate many kinds of music (like drum machines for instance) but to deny that race played a part in the "disco sucks" movement is in my opinion delusional. Especially in light of the Lester Bangs quote that you have chosen to not comment on at all. But carrry on if it makes you feel safer.

[Hard Truth]

To not get that there was a racial element in some of the hate for disco at that time borders on denial in my opinion.

 

I don't think that anyone in this thread said that the ant-disco movement was completely devoid of racism or heterosexism, the point is that there were/are plenty of other reasons to hate disco. My biggest complaint about disco is that it drove other types of African-American music underground during its dominance.

 

That famous event at the ball game seems a bit ugly to me and is not the kind of thing I would have ever particpated in.

 

When punk emerged there were things I liked about it, but I was initially very turned off by the people who wore swastikas. (Sid Vicious, Souxsie Souix *) Fortunately there was a Rock Against Racism movement that raised consciousness and pretty much ended the use of racist symbols and lyrics in most punk.

 

(*I think that they were probably just trying to be provocative and shocking, not racist, but it did send very mixed messages.)

 

In 1978, near the peak of the disco fad, I attended a dance in the basement of our local library that was attended by almost all young African-American kids. The music that they were playing was funk, not disco. That and the music played on the local black-oriented community radio station indicated to me that funk, electro and early hip-hop were the music for young blacks at that time, not disco., although there was some overlap between these styles.

[tremolounge]

 

*I think that they were probably just trying to be provocative and shocking, not racist, but it did send very mixed messages.

 

 

In Siouxsie's case, absolutely. She took great pains later on to disavow her swatiska-wearing episodes, offering the single "Israel" (with Star of David sleeve) perhaps as atonement.

[tremolounge]

 

And I think that's the thing that seperates rap/hip-hop from disco, and why it's proven to be more than a passing fad. It's so deeply entrenched in the culture that surrounds it, that the two are basically one and the same. There's an entire generation now that was born into the culture. It's much more than just a "scene", like disco was, where you could simply step out of your polyester suit and go to back to work. I think that's a big reason why rap has endured while disco hasn't.

 

 

As much as I love (and still listen to) disco, I have to say you are spot on here.

[Lee Flier]

Why was disco so vehemently hated? Could there possibly be racism and homophobia lurking not too deeply under the surface... hmmm...?

 

There are others, but I'm not gonna go digging through the whole thread for them. And there's been media coverage to that effect recently too.

 

There are many reasons why people hate many kinds of music (like drum machines for instance) but to deny that race played no part in the "disco sucks" movement is in my opinion delusional. Especially in light of the Lester Bangs quote that you have chosen to not comment on at all. But carrry on if it makes you feel safer.

 

I chose not to comment on the Lester Bangs article because there was nothing to comment on - I AGREE that some people who hated disco were racist, as I've already said twice. I didn't say in the first place that race played "no part" in the movement, only that there were plenty of other reasons. We're really arguing about nothing, except that we probably have a difference of opinion about the degree to which racism fueled the anti-disco movement. And that's something nobody's going to "prove" either way, so as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

I think this has gotten silly, so I'm out.

[Lee Flier]

 

I don't think that anyone in this thread said that the ant-disco movement was completely devoid of racism or heterosexism, the point is that there were/are plenty of other reasons to hate disco. My biggest complaint about disco is that it drove other types of African-American music underground during its dominance.

 

 

Exactly.

[Jotown]

 

When punk emerged there were things I liked about it, but I was initially very turned off by the people who wore swastikas. (Sid Vicious, Souxsie Souix *) Fortunately there was a Rock Against Racism movement that raised consciousness and pretty much ended the use of racist symbols and lyrics in most punk.

Your posts illuminates a very important point. There was a strong racist overtone in many of those who began the punk movement (Sid Vicious, Souxsie Souix *). The rock against racism movement was a response to that initial racist vibe. These things were all happening at the same time. The saturation of disco on the airwaves, the emergence of punk, the still lingering distrust in the inner cities beteen many parts of the white and black commuinities.

 

This social millieu had a lot to do with the anger and subsequent violence that was demonstrated that day in Chicago. These things don't happen in a vacum. I always try to get the cause and effect relationship between how people behave and why.

 

When someone chooses to ignore the racial component of that time they are just missing a very crucial element of the whole thing. Not the whole thing mind you, but surely one of the ingredients.

[tremolounge]

 

When someone chooses to ignore the racial component of that time they are just missing a very crucial element of the whole thing. Not the whole thing mind you, but surely one of the ingredients.

 

 

That right there, in a nutshell, is what the whole Lester Bangs article addresses. It's fairly long, but it's well worth reading. Again, the link:

 

http://timeghost.net/stuff/bangs/white-noise-supremacists.html

[Jotown]

Lee; I am sorry if you think I am being hard on you here, but the intensity of your need to believe that racism had nothing to do with the

[Jotown]

 

That right there, in a nutshell, is what the whole Lester Bangs article addresses. It's fairly long, but it's well worth reading. Again, the link: http://timeghost.net/stuff/bangs/white-noise-supremacists.html

Thank you for that link as it is a great article. I am not the writer that Lester Bangs is, but I completely agree with his take on that moment in time, and his article would really inform anyone who wasn't around then as to the kinds of social issues that led to the music, and the behavior of those who loved it or hated it.

 

 

Lester Bangs: Whereas you don

[Hard Truth]

Lester Bangs: "But would you say the same thing to the black disco artist who was refused admittance to Studio 54 even though he had a Top Ten crossover hit which they were probably playing inside the damn place at the time.......... "

 

Ah ha! Look, here's the proof-Disco is racist!

 

To end this circular argument, perhaps we can all agree that the anti-Disco movement was approximately 14% racist, 8% heterosexist, 5% anti-polyester and white clothing, 4% classist, 15% anti-materialist, and 54% musical.

[Jotown]

Lester Bangs: "But would you say the same thing to the black disco artist who was refused admittance to Studio 54 even though he had a Top Ten crossover hit which they were probably playing inside the damn place at the time.......... " Ah ha! Look, here's the proof-Disco is racist! To end this circular argument, perhaps we can all agree that the anti-Disco movement was approximately 14% racist, 8% heterosexist, 5% anti-polyester and white clothing, 4% classist, 15% anti-materialist, and 54% musical.

If that is all that you got from the Lester Bangs article you need a Soul tuneup. Nobody said that disco is racist (other than you). That is not the point of my post or the Bangs article, or even this thread. But I know it is easier to be silly than wise.

[Lee Flier]

Lee; I am sorry if you think I am being hard on you here, but the intensity of your need to believe that racism had nothing to do with the

[Jotown]

 

Nah, you're just baiting me now. And that's exactly why I gave up on the argument - not because you've offended me, but because you're totally misrepresenting what I said, ...... other than that you are intentionally trying to "call me out" and bait me into continuing the discussion. That doesn't "offend" me, it's just a waste of time.

Ok Lee. I will let your posts speak for themselves. And I am not "baiting" anyone. I truly have no desire to hurt your feelings or offend you. You don't have to accept my apology.

 

But you really should read the Lester Bangs article as it is an amazing glimpse at the state of things in 1979 beyond the confines of your own experience.

 

I would ask you what it is that you wrote that you feel I have "mis-represented" because I can count at least four posts in which you say that "race had nothing to do with it." And that is the only thing that I have taken exception to in your posts.

[Etienne Rambert]

I don't think racism had much to do with the Disco Sucks revolt.

 

A pretty famous African-American actor, Michael Clarke Duncan, was at the original riot.

 

 

I think the Disco Sucks movement involved people who listened to

music that was much worse than Disco -- who felt threatened by tight

vocals 4 on the floor beat and orchestration with string sections.

 

It was great music. And the tradition still continues today - especially

in Asia.

[Beck]

Lee; I am sorry if you think I am being hard on you here, but the intensity of your need to believe that racism had nothing to do with the

[MichaelSaulnier]

I was there. The riot was more about out of control drunks... than any kind of statement of racial hatred.

 

But, disco does suck...

 

In my opinion.

 

Mainly because of its overwhelming popularity. It pushed out lots of opportunity for musicians to play live... disco was RARELY performed live in club settings...

 

So to someone who was an active club "rock" musician... it really sucked.

 

M

[tremolounge]

 

It pushed out lots of opportunity for musicians to play live... disco was RARELY performed live in club settings... So to someone who was an active club "rock" musician... it really sucked. M

 

 

That's a valid sentiment, and I've heard it expressed by other working musicians from the seventies... But disco (the music itself) is sort of a guilty bystander here. The problem was that this kicked off the trend of DJs playing records in clubs where bands once played -- and that practice filtered into other events, especially weddings, where I would guess that DJs outnumber bands to this day. So yeah, lots of lost business for live musicians.

 

Punk and what followed was a good shot in the arm (no pun intended) for live bands, though (I was in an original music band at the time, and we and our friends in other bands could work as much as we wanted to).

 

My gut feeling is that things have kinda evened out since then -- now, if you want to hear dance music, you go to a DJ club; if you want to hear a band you go to a live music club -- they're both here to stay.

 

I'd be interested to hear others' thoughts and experiences on this "employment" aspect of the disco thing...

[halfnote]

I'm not advocating the view that racism, or as it should more properly be called since there's only one human race, "skin-color-based hatred", is/was the cause of disco's demise but my last comment was meant to support the idea that that is why some people didn'y like it.

Kurdy's comments above aside, this is based on the fact that many people who like music as limited in musical scope as much ---but hardly all-- of rap & with even greater devotion to what we might call negative social attitudes love certain genres such as Goth, death-metal, etc., but hate anything connected to what Curtis Mayfield called "the people darker than blue".

 

But as I also said before, this is, to me, a debate thread of stunning length for a subject where people's opinions seem largely pre-set.

 

Now back to that riviting argy-bargy on "did men actually walk on the moon"...

Just joshin' y'all carry on!

[Hard Truth]

This got overlooked, so I'll post it again:

 

To end this circular argument, perhaps we can all agree that the anti-Disco movement was approximately 14% racist, 8% heterosexist, 5% fashion (anti-polyester and white clothing), 4% classist, 15% anti-materialist, and 54% musical.

[halfnote]

That's a quite precise ratio there & one that I'm sure no one could dispute.

Scientific research always trumps the alternative.