What's for breakfast? Sacred cow

[Magpel]

Warning: if the expression of a negative opinion upsets you, if you believe "it's all good," or if you think I should just go make music, like you, rather than waste time and energy "hatin'," please turn around and go away... If however, you like to share judgments and their reasons and don't mind playin' with opinion and defense, understanding that no one is out to change any one else's mind or level personal judgments based on taste, let's get it on.

 

Van Morrison, Astral Weeks. I do "get it," the beauty of the album's essential folk-jazz sound and its organic structure, especially when I listen with historical context in mind, but for a lot of reasons, this album, for me, just doesn't deliver the load of immortal greatness that consensus five-star classics are supposed to carry.

 

The killer for me: I find the record melodically deficient, extremely deficient. In fact, after a recent listen to its blooming, swelling entirety, I concluded that the album really has only one melody, and that Van essentially noodles variants of it over a I - IV for 40+ minutes, but in a spiritual way... Amen.

 

I always joked about Van's approach to songwriting: OK, write a conventional song. Then fill the spaces with a lot of vocal ornaments, yelps, and ad libs. Now, remove the conventional song, and you've got a Van Morrison song.

 

No harm no foul. It's a nice record with a cool sound, but I for one do not recognize Astral Weeks as an all-time great record.

[blue2blue]

As Dorothy Parker once said about horticulture...

 

 

 

I don't think the albums that folks find deep personal resonance in are generally without flaw.

 

But, you know, I wouldn't expect everyone -- even folks with overlapping tastes -- to like the same thing. Or, for that matter, for their appreciation of any given work to be set in stone. Aesthetic appreciation is often an evolving thing.

 

 

IOW, there's still hope for you.

 

 

PS... I'll say one thing though, if you think the songs on Astral Weeks are conventional songs, you really haven't listened.

[tremolounge]

I usually argue for the importance of strong melodies (sorely lacking from pop music for so long now), but there are forms of music that succeed by sheer emotional intensity and inventiveness. For example, it would be silly to chide Howlin' Wolf for being "melodically deficient".

 

Astral Weeks immerses you in an utterly unique world for half an hour; that does it for me.

 

[edit] well, 3/4 of an hour -- minus the time it took to flip the record over.

[coyote-1]

No, it really wouldn't.

 

I seriously don't get how people can dig an entire night of blues.

 

Bu Bada ba bap

I'm a man

Bu Bada ba bap

I'm a maaaaan

Bu Bada ba bap

I'm a maan

Bu Bada ba bap

I'm a maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan

Bu Bada ba bap

I'm a man

 

There's so much more to the language of music. It's the difference between A Tale of Two Cities and.... today's installment of Mallard Fillmore.

 

For example, it would be silly to chide Howlin' Wolf for being "melodically deficient".

 

[Magpel]

 

I usually argue for the importance of strong melodies (sorely lacking from pop music for so long now), but there are forms of music that succeed by sheer emotional intensity and inventiveness.

 

 

This is a good point.

[Kendrix]

With that introduction I expected you'd be talking about something like capitalism, health care reform or the war- not a fourty plus year old album.

 

I've also struggled to "get" Astral Weeks.

I don't get why some folks are sooo very attached to it.

 

When I first encountered it I didnt like the sound. It seemed too open and airy- almost ethereal. There wasnt enough for me to grab onto. However, this is just the character that some folks treasure it for.

 

Subsequent rave reviews by influential folks ( including Elivis Costello) caused me to go back and give it another chance. I still didn't fall under its spell in a big way.

 

I think this is one that, if you feel in love with its unique vibe around the time it was released, you became a devout fan. It occupied a unique niche at a unique & special time.

I don't know anyone that fell that hard for it recently.

I tried. So, I'm with you.

 

However, there are other VM productions /songs that I am very attached to.

The good ones have a certain heart to them that comes across both musically and lyrically. They can get under your skin. Also, I like saxophones.

[blue2blue]

 

No, it really wouldn't. I seriously don't get how people can dig an entire night of blues. Bu Bada ba bap I'm a man Bu Bada ba bap I'm a maaaaan Bu Bada ba bap I'm a maan Bu Bada ba bap I'm a maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan Bu Bada ba bap I'm a man There's so much more to the language of music. It's the difference between A Tale of Two Cities and.... today's installment of Mallard Fillmore .

Um... here are the first few verses from "Beside You" on Astral Weeks

 

Little Jimmy's gone way out of the back streets Out of the window, into the falling rain And he's right on time, right on time That's why Broken Arrow waved his finger Down the road so dark and narrow In the evening just before the Sunday sixbells chime And way out on the highway All the dogs are barkin' way down below And you wander away from your hillside retreated view Went to wanderin' Nordhbridge way out on the railroad Together all the tipping trucks will unload All the scrapbooks built together stuck with glue And I'll stand beside you, beside you [...]

 

[cooterbrown]

Isn't Astral Weeks supposed to be like a tone poem, or something?

Hence the repeating musical themes?

Morrison had so many disjointed ideas, circling around a grand design, and the fact that he was essentially dictating ideas to other musicians as they came to him, was the main reason the album sounds so crazy. Not to mention some of those infathomable lyrics.

I think it's a fanatastic mess, myself.

[blue2blue]

A beautiful mess, at times.

 

 

I'll admit, it's one of my very favorite albums of all time. And I'll also admit: no subsequent Van Morrison album has moved me anywhere as much.

 

That said, I tend to view his ealier works as being important background material that helps inform my limited -- intentionally so -- understanding of what's literally behind AW. Songs like "Who Drove the Red Sprots Car" and the devastating "T.B. Sheets" as well as the earlier, loosely rocking version of "Madame George," help give flavor and depth to the effort... I'd suggest it's a little like Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man and Ulysses -- but I'm afraid Ulysses is still in the unfinished column of my reading list. (But I'll get there... I think I'll warm up by finally finishing Gravity's Rainbow, though. Sort of a warm up jog... )

[tremolounge]

Gravity's Rainbow is on my New Year's to read list, too -- I'm warming up by reading V. right now. This was sparked by Pynchon's latest, Inherent Vice, which is hilarious, and pretty much "light reading" in his catalog.

 

I've read Ulysses, but I was immersed in Joyce at the time (mid-70s), and had a couple of the "Guides to Ulysses" within reach. Have no plans to read Finnegans Wake...

[blue2blue]

I loved V but it's been decades since I read it. (I read it twice, actually.)

 

I got onto Pynchon because he was best pals with my gone-before-I-even-knew-him hero, Richard Farina. Since there wasn't going to be a follow up to his Been Down So Long It Looks Like Up to Me, I jumped both feet into V. I think I was supposed to be reading Ulysses for my folklore-mythology class (they assigned a major book a week, but were generous enough to allow two weeks for the Abrahamic Bible (aka, Old Testament)... still, we only got one week for Ulysses -- but he kept warning people, "You guys think, oh, it's just another 800 page novel -- but it's not a quick read." The legendary Peter Carr.) Me... I typically read around 100 to 150 wpm -- for me, the couple hundred pages (max) of Been Down So Long was a slow read. V... I lived with that book. I think I read it twice because it took me so long that I'd forgotten the beginning by the time I got to the end.

[tremolounge]

I loved V but it's been decades since I read it. (I read it twice, actually.) ... I think I read it twice because it took me so long that I'd forgotten the beginning by the time I got to the end.

 

I'm halfway through, and already I know what you're sayin' -- but yeah, V. is going to be a book to revisit a couple times.

 

I'm also about halfway through all the Lew Archer books of Ross Macdonald (and a great bio of him (Ken Millar) by Tom Nolan).

 

Is this OT yet?

[cooterbrown]

A beautiful mess, at times. I'll admit, it's one of my very favorite albums of all time. And I'll also admit: no subsequent Van Morrison album has moved me anywhere as much.

 

I can almost agree with that.

Although I think Moondance is as perfect as an album can get, it is more like an album of little vignettes...short stories if you will, where Astral Weeks works more as a whole...like a novel.

[tremolounge]

 

I can almost agree with that. Although I think Moondance is as perfect as an album can get, it is more like an album of little vignettes...short stories if you will, where Astral Weeks works more as a whole...like a novel.

 

 

We in New England have a little bit of "local pride" about those two albums. Van had moved to Cambridge (Mass.) to lay back and plot his post-Them direction; the band he put together to record those first two records had a lot of Boston guys, including members of the very popular Colwell-Winfield Blues Band (one great album, long out of print).

 

Fast forward to now, and Van's daughter Shana splits her life between the west coast and this area -- in fact, my studio partner and some of our friends are her band when she gigs around here; they rehearse in my studio.

 

And yes, though Shana does mostly originals, she has a few of Van's songs in her repertoire (last time I saw them, I think she did "Sweet Thing" from AW).

[Magpel]

Isn't Astral Weeks supposed to be like a tone poem, or something? Hence the repeating musical themes?

 

I am sure, but, back when I used to teach writing, I can't tell you how many times I head, "but that's the way the people talk" as a justification for bad writing. The point, of course, is not to just be something, but to be something and be good.

 

Still, I recognize heavy cats all around revere this record.

[Magpel]

I'm halfway through, and already I know what you're sayin' -- but yeah, V. is going to be a book to revisit a couple times. Is this OT yet?

 

OK, Pynchon...Yes, sacred cow too.

 

I have read The Crying of Lot 49 numerous times and love it as a condensation of all that is great about Pynchon with none of the excess. I've read V, a touch of Gravity's Rainbow, about 250 pages of Vineland and maybe 150 of Mason and Dixon. I think he's a great American burlesque writer from the generation of great post-modern American burlesque writers--John Barth would be another contemporary of his to check out if you haven't.

 

I've been on a literary novel reading kick lately--maybe it is time to revisit weird Tom.

[Magpel]

 

I've read Ulysses , but I was immersed in Joyce at the time (mid-70s), and had a couple of the "Guides to Ulysses" within reach. Have no plans to read Finnegans Wake ...

 

 

I once made a "true" joke about Finnegan's Wake that is all you need to know about the experience of reading that monster. It went a little something like this:

 

I haven't read Finnegan's Wake, but I have looked at every word of it, in order.

 

Ulysses, otoh, I have read and studied and written about and believe it to be very much worth the investment, though it helps to have help.

[tremolounge]

Didn't Joyce say something like, "It took me 17 years to write Finnegans Wake; I don't see why it shouldn't take you 17 years to read it."

 

I'll put Lot 49 on my list -- thanks!

[blue2blue]

OK, Pynchon...Yes, sacred cow too. I have read The Crying of Lot 49 numerous times and love it as a condensation of all that is great about Pynchon with none of the excess. I've read V , a touch of Gravity's Rainbow , about 250 pages of Vineland and maybe 150 of Mason and Dixon . I think he's a great American burlesque writer from the generation of great post-modern American burlesque writers--John Barth would be another contemporary of his to check out if you haven't. I've been on a literary novel reading kick lately--maybe it is time to revisit weird Tom.

Now, see... I read Crying after I finished V, because I was jonesing for more, but while I got some laughs out of it, for me, it lacked the emotional connect of V; there was a morose, cynical, brooding emotional quality to V that really talked to me in the early 70s. In those days I never saw any disconnect between patent absurdity and the darker emotions. Probably why Catch-22 was my favorite book in high school and I read it a at least once more in college. And, actually, going back around, those were (at least some of) the qualities I bonded with in the slim Been Down So Long. There's something about the intersection of absurdity and tragedy that strikes me as real in a way that cuts through the burlesquery of those books.

[Jotown]

I am sure, but, back when I used to teach writing, I can't tell you how many times I head, "but that's the way the people talk" as a justification for bad writing. The point, of course, is not to just be something , but to be something and be good.

Van Morrison has proven himself to be a great writer; one of the best songwriters of the golden ear a of rock. His songs have been covered - and have been hits - for many artists. When an artist has proven that he is great at his medium and has mastered a particular genre; they have a tendency to move onto more challenging forms. I think that that is what Mr. Morrison has done here. And I think due his track record he gets a bit of grace and patience in trying to get others to get this record.

 

Not my favorite Van Morrison record; but an artistic statement for sure.

[cooterbrown]

 

When an artist has proven that he is great at his medium and has mastered a particular genre; they have a tendency to move onto more challenging forms.

 

 

Except Astral Weeks was Van's debut album.

 

(...you can't count Blowin' Your Mind, on which he wrote most of the songs, but had no control over the production or arrangements or much of anything else. Van himself disowned the album.)

[blue2blue]

Solo debut.

 

I love Blowin' Your Mind and all the various bits and pieces that fell between the cracks of Them and his solo career.

[cooterbrown]

 

Solo debut. I love Blowin' Your Mind and all the various bits and pieces that fell between the cracks of Them and his solo career.

 

 

Yes, he did write quite a few good songs when he was with Them.

Hell, he wrote "Gloria" - the number of garage bands, on-stage jams, and cheeky covers he's reponsible for, just on that single alone, is immeasurable.

[blue2blue]

Let's not forget "Brown Eyed Girl," either. I thought it was pretty trivial back when I was a kid and it was new but over the years it really grew on me.

[samtrips]

 

I'll admit, it's one of my very favorite albums of all time.

 

 

Me too. I actually had it as my last thing to listen to before I go to sleep for over 2 years running, every night. I know and love every inch of it. Not many albums I trust to give me good dreams.

 

And I am reluctant to try and argue it's merits or problems without bias, so I'll refrain.

 

 

For anyone who wants more in the same Van vein can I recommend Veedon Fleece? Makes a good second side of a C90 for the car/walkman/insert other retro sound device...