Where should I start?

[BlueStrat]

 

Here, are you talking about the artists themselves? If you are, how can you avoid making a band with a rebel who may ruin your life?

 

 

No, I'm talking about the scumsucking parasites that come out of the woodwork when you start making decent money or they think you're about to. These include lawyers, A&R types, management companies, talent agencies, publishers, contract headhunters, promotion agencies, song placement people, producers, artist development folks, and anyone else who claims they can see where music is headed and get you out front of it. These sons of bitches can smell money from the next county, and all of them want some of it, or all of it, if they can get it.

 

 

There are of course good ones, but they are far and few between compared to the people who will try to get you to sell your soul and/or invest all your hopes and dreams into them just so they can make a Mercedes payment of put in the new hot tub.

 

 

That's part of life isn't it? Things are always changing.

 

 

Indeed they are. However, unlike the music business, there are trends that market analysts can foresee and prepare for in a reasonable manner. This is why economies are able to remain fairly stable. And, unlike the music business, the consumer can produce very little of the goods and services they use. Few people can make their own cars, build their own homes, raise their own food, sew their own clothes, etc etc. They can, however, download the music they want anytime they want. No leaving the house, no money involved. Just point, click, and viola! Instant CD.

 

In addition, anyone with a guitar, a computer, and rudimentary skills with both can produce and distribute recorded music. This helps creates a volatile market. Volatility in economic terms means (among other things) that the production is uncontrolled, either flooding the market of, in the case of a natural disaster or war, choking off production, leading to wild swings in pricing and profit. In the music business, since profit has all but been eliminated, and there's no shotrage of product, the volatility lies in what the public decides is hip that day. Where a band's shelf life used to be measured in years 20 years ago, today it's often measured in weeks. To some extent, it's been this way for 50 years, but in the past decade, the number of lasting bands has radically decreased as the number of 'flavor of the week' bands has increased. For this reason, no one can predict what's going to be hot next year or next month. But that doesn't stop industry people from trying to make their money off of naive young talent by trying to convince them they can be the Next Big Thing.

 

 

Why should it be a problem if the bad bands don't last,

 

 

I wish it were that simple. Good ones don't last, either, because there are just so many of them. But another larger consideration is this: for a lot of venues, 'good enough' is good enough.

 

Let's say you have Band A, a great band that could potentially go all the way, but they need decent money to get the things they need to tour and promote, and make decent recordings to pitch. And you have Band B, a mediocre band or even a weak one with lots of friends that has no chance of going anywhere. Band A it touring; band B is a local band. Band A can only draw 40 or so people, because they aren't known in the area. Band B can pack the club, because all their friends from work and relatives come out to party with them. Band A needs 400-500 dollars minimum to keep going. Band B needs enough to cover the bar tab.

 

Who do you think the club owner gives the gig to? Where I live, I see this all the time, but moreover, I lived it. I went to places like Portland and Seattle and lost my ass ( I paid my band out of pocket, and paid for motel rooms) because I was competing in that exact scenario. Venues would say "Man, you have a great band, it's a shame no one who you are. Come back when you get a following." And there it is, Catch-22: No gigs, no following. No following, no gigs. Meanwhile, Billy Biker and the Wannabes are playing for 200 bucks and free beer, and packing the place.

 

Back in the day, I was an agency band, which meant that I worked out of an agency that booked bands 6 nights a week full time. You had to be quite good to get hired on with an agency. My agent had about 15-20 bands on the road full time. Crappy local bands couldn't get into the decent places. But with the collapse of the 6 night a week gig (for various reasons mentioned here a jillion times) the plum gigs opened up to weekend hobbyists, all but eliminating the full time working band. A lot of the full timers settled down and became weekenders, but a lot of the crappy bands started getting the gigs, too, because they could get friends to come out. Suddenly, quality had nothing to do with it. And that's where we are now.

 

 

 

Bluestrat did not "give up" either, though I don't know him well enough to speak for him. But from reading his posts over the course of the last year or so, it seems that he left LA for a place where making a living in music didn't require him to sell his soul. I believe he plays often, and does make $$.

 

 

Correct on all counts!

[EVHoYEAH]

Great posts BlueStrat - anger and frustration definately brings out the best in ya. Keep em coming...

[BlueStrat]

 

Great posts BlueStrat - anger and frustration definately brings out the best in ya. Keep em coming...

 

 

Thanks...but I feel better now...

 

I actually play a lot now, and make decent money doing it...I do a lot of solo work, duo stuff, and a small 4 piece band. I never leave the house for undere 100 dollars, and quite often on my solo gig I'll make 150-200 dollars.

 

I just get saddened when I see what's happened to the music business over the last 20 years. I know things change, I need to get used to it, etc etc but damn, I wish some of the younger guys here could have had a taste of what it was like to play six nights a week and actually have someone pay for your motel rooms, feed you once a day and pay you 400-600 bucks a week per man in 1980 dollars.

[Opus Antics]

Field, nobody is telling you to give up. But you really really really need to just sit back and absorb the information being provided. The people on this site have experience you would be wise to try to learn from. Your posts show that you are young and enthusiastic, which is great, but you're also coming across as young and naive, and somewhat obstinate. Which isn't so great when you're trying to learn.

 

I can't tell you how much I've learned from these folks, and I have so very much more to learn.

 

Knowledge and information along with time and experience are your best weapons. Time and experience, you have to forge on your own. Knowledge and information, that you can get in abundance here.

 

Next steps for you. Find a method that works for you to record your song ideas. You should be able to find software that does the trick for you. Then just work on writing songs. Don't get hung up on one song. Let your mind open up. Follow different ideas, riffs, melodies, lyrics and see where they take you. Unless you're a prodigy, it takes time and practice to get better at songwriting. Also, find a way to play, either solo or with a group of friends. You learn a lot playing with other people.

 

Good luck, and in 5-10 years I hope you can start up a "told ya so" thread announcing that your first album just went platinum.

[bigdaddydave]

We keep having this conversation, but I think these things need to be said-you don't strike me as being the "starry eyed" type, Field, but the more experienced members of this forum are not just being negative because they didn't "make it" (ever say a word so much it begins to lose it's meaning?) they speak the truth. When I was 19, I moved to Austin, TX to be the next SRV. When I got there, I realized that thousands of very good guitar players had done the exact same thing. Open mic night at Joe's Generic Bar looked like some weird costume contest with the gaucho hats and beat-up Stratocasters. I was lucky that I realized early on that if I was going to make a living doing what I loved, I was going to have to be a lot more realistic about what I was going to accomplish with my music.

 

I come from a musical family-both my father and grandfather were fine amateur musicians. I look at my 6 mo. old son now and wonder if he has inherited my musical ability. I almost hope he hasn't-what am I going to say to him when he's packing his bags for LA to be the next big thing? Hopefully, he'll just be good with computers or something. Anyway, I'm beginning to ramble, but the point is there's nothing wrong with following your dreams-just be realistic about the nature of the business you're entering, and always, always have an exit strategy. I wish you nothing but the best.

[Field]

 

the point is there's nothing wrong with following your dreams-just be realistic about the nature of the business you're entering, and always, always have an exit strategy.

 

 

Exit strategy being a Plan B?

 

 

 

I'm not sure if this will change anything, but I think, to be more open, in future I would be playing in dance concerts/clubs as a small band or DJ. Same deal?

[BlueStrat]

 

You mean if you put your life in someone else's hands, it could be messed up?

 

 

You're kidding, right? You can't possibly be this naive.

 

"Industry people"? I thought record dealers won't even give you a deal if you have "naive young talent" and likewise money can't be made out of people who aren't even liked by the public in the first place.

 

 

No offense, but are you even reading what I'm telling you, or just skimming it so you can argue?

 

Industry people doesn't = record people. Record guys are industry people, but so are agents, publishers, promoters, bookers, headhunters, etc etc. You know, all the other guys I mentioned.

 

If they think there's a chance you'll make some money, they want to be in line to get some of it, or and this is key, keep you from getting any of it. I'll explain.

 

Success in music is a process. Once in awhile, you have a band that goes from the basement to Madison Square Garden in a year, but believe me, that is about as rare as Halley's Comet. Most success is made by playing, promoting, and marketing in ever-expanding rings. Some bands try to blanket the whole US to get known, but it's a bit like trying to sway flies with a shotgun. You may hit one, but it's a costly and inefficient way to go about it.

 

The thing about expanding rings, though, is that each one requires starting over at the bottom, only instead of playing the next town over for the door, you're playing the next state over, and your expenses go up. For some genres, and for some areas, the 'expanding rings' only expand slightly, but you still have to start over, and look, here's another ring after that, and another, and another...until you run into the ring of guys on their way down, or trying to make it back up--guys that had hit records once that are competing for the same gigs you are. And occasionally, you bump into their people who see you as a means to make money. Sometimes they see you as a threat. It happens. They promise you this, that and the other thing, and you buy in, finding out that they don't have much to offer. "Sign this publishing deal with me; I can get your songs in front of ______. Of course, I'll need 1000 dollars to cover expenses and promote you". "Sign with my record company; we can distribute you and get you on tour with _______". Then you find out they signed you so they could shelve you and not have you competing with their pet project. And on and on it goes. The ways they can scalp you are endless.

 

It even comes from other bands. I reached a level on the festival/concert venues where other bands' reps would start slinging {censored} about me and other bands, too, to reduce competition-things like "Oh, that guy? He's a decent player. Too bad about his heroin problem". "That guy? big time drunk." "Oh, you're looking at that band to play? I'd be careful if I were you...I'm just sayin'." Planting seeds of doubt in presenters' minds. This happened to me a couple of times right after 9-11 when nationals and semi-nationals started avoiding Europe and Asia and needed more gigs domestically. I know because I know some guys on booking committees who told me so-this was being done by managers and agents who had never heard of me. They did it to a lot of lower level guys like me so they could 'clear the stage' for their bands.

 

Nice, eh?

 

 

 

This sounds really simple, I mean you should be able to get fans the same way the wannabes do. Isn't that how is would work? Because we all have to start somewhere.

 

 

Let's recap:

 

How does a band on the road full time get the same following a local band with day jobs and roots in the community does?

 

Yes, you have to start somewhere. But since entry level booking agencies are all but gone, and virtually none of them are booking originals only bands anyway, you're left to booking yourself. So now instead of a reputable agent trying to sell an unknown band to a club for something, you're a nobody trying to sell an unknown band and you're giving it away, usually for the door, depending on total strangers who have never heard of you plunking down money to come see you. If you're lucky you'll get a small guarantee of maybe a hundred bucks for the whole band. Good luck living on that to buy gas, food, gear maintenance, laundry, showers, etc etc for an extended tour. You'd better hope your gigs are 20 miles apart. Oops, this leaves out most of the western US.

 

Simple, isn't it?

[bigdaddydave]

Unfortunately for yung'uns such as yourself, the dollars available in the record industry that can be used to "make it" (there's that word again) are becoming fewer and fewer. As the the record labels continue their free-fall, they become more and more desperate for a "sure thing". Just this week I've witnessed the "comebacks" of:

-The Spice Girls (Women?)

-The Backstreet Boys (Men?)

-Madonna, who just inked a $10 million(!) dollar deal.

-Britney Spears' latest pile of {censored}.

-The Villiage People (the Indian looks like he's pushing 70 and probably is)

 

Jeez, pretty soon Disco Duck is going to be putting out a double-live album.

The point is that for every dollar being sunk into this nonsense is a dollar that isn't going to promote new talent (ie you). Again, I know that some people on this forum (BS, I'm looking in your direction) seem like a bunch of cynical, jaded bastards, but unfortunately, they're right, and they're trying to get across to you what you're up against. It's OK to keep asking questions, but at some point you gotta start listening to the answers.

[daddymack]

 

Again, I know that some people on this forum (BS, I'm looking in your direction) seem like a bunch of cynical, jaded bastards, but unfortunately, they're right, and they're trying to get across to you what you're up against. It's OK to keep asking questions, but at some point you gotta start listening to the answers.

 

If some of us come off as jaded, been-there-done-that, its because...well, we have. I've spent over 30 years banging around the music, film television and radio scenes in L.A., with minor and brief successes, and mostly a bad taste in my mouth. I've also toured as a sideman with a national act. I have spent years playing in clubs, fairs, weddings, picnics, dinners and festivals...and have never received a negative review, yet...I know it will never amount to 'stardom', or even a steady comfortable living. Maybe if I were somewhere else, but...I'm not.

[BlueStrat]

If some of us come off as jaded, been-there-done-that, its because...well, we have. I've spent over 30 years banging around the music, film television and radio scenes in L.A., with minor and brief successes, and mostly a bad taste in my mouth. I've also toured as a sideman with a national act. I have spent years playing in clubs, fairs, weddings, picnics, dinners and festivals...and have never received a negative review, yet...I know it will never amount to 'stardom', or even a steady comfortable living. Maybe if I were somewhere else, but...I'm not.

 

 

You'll aways be a star to me, Mack...

 

 

[The*Ataris]

I'll give you the same advice I tell everyone else who's thinking about music trade school:

 

Go to a real college, study something worthwhile, and enjoy music in your free time.

 

I loved recording music and playing in bands in high school and was fortunate enough to receive the above advice. I went to a four year college, studied communications a whopping 15 credit hours a semester, played in bands the whole time, toured regionally over breaks, recorded bands on weekends for beer money, and interned at a great nationally recognized studio toward the end. All the while, I met thousands of beautiful girls, drank enough beer to kill most grown men, and experienced what a great thing college is.

 

So, now I'm 23, playing in the best band I've ever been in, still record music, etc, but I also have a real college degree and have a ton of great friends that I met over the years. I also have experience on studio equipment that you won't find in trade schools (SSL G-series consoles, B&W 802 monitors, etc.). Didn't cost me a dime and it was a blast!

 

Just think about it...

[bigdaddydave]

BTW, I was only using the term "cynical, jaded, bastards" for effect-you guys are a great, wonderful bunch of bastards!

[Field]

Good god, what am I supposed to do, read a whole lecture on the music world and simply reply "Ok. Bye." Seriously what is wrong - why does everyone think I am not listening? I am asking questions because I like to think of things in different ways so I can see around how it works. For a watered down example, this is what seems to be happening:

 

Person A "Tell me how/why..."

Person B "This happens"

Person A "Why?"

B "Because, of this..."

A "And how can that be, is there a way around that?"

B "You're not listening to me."

A "Yes I am, I am asking questions because it is important to me."

B "You're naive. Naive and Naive?"

 

you're a nobody trying to sell an unknown band and you're giving it away, usually for the door, depending on total strangers who have never heard of you plunking down money to come see you.

 

 

I thought that's how people start get to know you, so why is it such a bad thing when you're starting out?

[EVHoYEAH]

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."

 

Hunter S. Thompson

[BlueStrat]

Person A "Tell me how/why..." Person B "This happens" Person A "Why?" B "Because, of this..." A "And how can that be, is there a way around that?" B "You're not listening to me." A "Yes I am, I am asking questions because it is important to me." B "You're naive. Naive and Naive?"

 

 

Well, maybe it's the limitations of writing rather than speaking, but it seems more like this:

 

Person A "Tell me how/why..."

Person B "This happens"

Person A "Why?"

B "Because, of this..."

A "But I already do that, and that isn't my problem anyway."

B "You're not listening to me."

A "Yes I am, I just don't think what you're saying is necessarily true."

B "You're naive. Naive and Naive?"

(maybe it's because the idea that other people might take advantage of you is somehow a surprise to you? Just a thought)

 

 

It seems like you know-all too well, and are acting like you are better than everyone.

 

 

I've heard that from more than one person. Sorry, it isn't my intent. I'm old, jaded, and I tend to be very, very blunt. Not meant to come off as a horse's ass, it just happens sometimes.

 

"You mean..?" means I am trying to put what your saying in my own words, simplified, and relate it back to you so we have no misunderstanding. And any other questions are not for an argument, but for a discussion, that's what forums are for.

 

Fair enough.

 

And good for you for not giving up, and sticking it out with this thread to make sure you're undersrtood.

 

If I'm seeing this right, overall you're saying that what you should do is slowly move up that ladder in terms of promotion/playing, and don't try to cover too much ground when you're starting out, right? You have to be careful so that no con-artists stop you from doing this .

 

Pretty much that's it.

 

I've never signed anything like this. Shouldn't there be a contract which states all that can affect the terms of the agreement, without misconceptions? Any advice to how to avoid such problems?

 

I'm talking about record contracts here, and never, ever sign one without a lawyer.

 

I thought that's how people start get to know you, so why is it such a bad thing when you're starting out?

 

The context I mentioned was 1) road bands, and 2) how can road bands compete with locals who will play for free?

[daddymack]

You'll aways be a star to me, Mack...

 

and you to me....

 

Too bad we just can't seem to get together... When are you back in SoCal, bro?

[strathound]

Wow. I've had a lot of the old timers try and explain this to me. I think it's finally starting to settle in. Wow. I hadn't realized just how big an impact this was having. I've got some thinking to do about this.

[Field]

The context I mentioned was 1) road bands, and 2) how can road bands compete with locals who will play for free?

 

Ah ok.

 

 

*Expanding from my first paragraph, I should refine my problem. My problem actually should have been brought up in my first post, but the thing is, I didn't actually realize where my problem was originating from - I was unaware of what was really causing my frustration. Here's how I found out:

 

Lately, I've been posting stuff in forums, reading articles and information about the industry and composition. I've realized that I've been dedicated to my work, but let down due to how inexperienced I am. I knew enough about music theory to have started (E.g. song structure/melody/harmony/etc.), but I am still clearly impractical. It's quite amusing - if you want a good laugh or two, read on.

 

I've refined my problem as not having equipment to convert what I've written into sound, and while this is correct, I need to explain to all of you people why it is a problem. I have no good recording mic, I don't have monitors - I have narrow PC speakers. So I don't record aloud. I record audio through Line In. MIDI would be good, but my programs that transmit it are out of sync, limited, and my VST/i plug-ins are painfully edged because they're mostly low quality free McDonald's Happy Meal toys, or they're limited demos which make random noises and are programmed to die after a few weeks. So, how do I get around this - I have one real VA synth to use, and it's basically what I am relying on at the moment. It's where and how I make songs in the first place.

 

But let me get back to the recording. Line in gives me crystal clear recording, but the recording itself is not planned. Because of the way I do it, I cannot play along with a song, or other tracks as normal outloud. So, I put on my mad studio headphones and I am restricted to the point where I have to listen to a separate drum track, as a metronome, with small earphones cushioned underneath my chunky headphones. I.e my headphones, splitted through the Output for recording, are so I can hear the keyboard, while the earphones play drum tracks from my iPod. That is painfully uncomfortable and annoying, and also embarrassing to admit. But that's one of my limitations. What ends up happening most of the time is I get a nice string pad or effect and end up playing around with it spontaneously until I find some way this fits into the mix. It's agitating you know, it ruins the experience, even so knowing that I have decided to pitch-shift my entire song down three semitones because it was too high. I couldn't reproduce the main timbres because they too, was also unplanned and spontaneous - back then I didn't even know how the program worked. So I've got a muddy, anti-aliased-smooth tuned old mix which I have to reproduce.

 

So what you are reading is about me, learning how to mix my first song, while doing it, and constantly improving it as I go. I can't wait for my laptop, with pro-programs. Seriously, it just hurts my ears knowing how wrong my recordings are sometimes, or how out of time they are due to stupid MIDI programs which for some reason have no other option other than "Screw You" (I know how to use them, but I can't use them properly as demos). What I have ended up with is about fifty remixes clogging my hard drive.

 

I hope you understand this concept better now. It's the truth at the moment and I know I both want and need a change from it. I hope you have some insight to what I can be doing that's productive between now and when I buy my equipment, because now I won't have to wait much longer. Thanks.

[kurdy]

OK, I think I am beginning to see what the problem is. You aren't necessarily asking how to make your way in the music business, but what kind of equipment you need, right?

 

Although this forum can be quite helpful, and offer you some very valuable advice, I think for the types of issues you are describing, you should visit the Keys/Synth/Samplers forum, and the Recording forums. Maybe try the Software & Computers forums as well. Those will probably be able to give you more of the answers and advice you are looking for. Do a search first to see if there are already threads on the subject, and if not, ask your questions there.

[Field]

 

Although this forum can be quite helpful, and offer you some very valuable advice, I think for the types of issues you are describing, you should visit the Keys/Synth/Samplers forum, and the Recording forums. Maybe try the Software & Computers forums as well. Those will probably be able to give you more of the answers and advice you are looking for. Do a search first to see if there are already threads on the subject, and if not, ask your questions there.

 

 

Thanks. I will if it's exclusive to that area, but I think 'The Music Biz' should fit this for advice on music practice, keeping up good work and development through life's big changes. I do think the above post can be relevant toward that.

 

You know - in the music business you have to sustain production of good songs, Lurko mentioned that. If this is needed, so is the appropriate equipment to do so. That's another reason why I am here - not knowing where (more accurately: when) to start getting heard, or how to keep things flowing. I seem to be stumbling early (I'll fix it up eventually).

[EVHoYEAH]

A good song is one that can be stripped down to the bones, e.g. Vox and acoustic, nothing more, and still sound great. I've usually found that the people with the best gear are compensating for there songwriting/ performance. Not all the time but rather often it's been the case.

 

Who are your musical influences? Chose a song by a band you really like and follow their formula for that song, e.g. same structure ABABCB and same tempo and use this as a template to complete your song. I understand that it can be difficult to finish a musical composition, especially when you're not faced with any deadlines or directions and it's hard to know when to stop adding more to your song.

[bigdaddydave]

You are nothing if not persistent . That's a good thing. I understand your frustrations with limited equipment, but again, it's your talent and ability that really matter. When Timbaland first showed his music to Missy Elliot, it was on a cheap little Casio keyboard with a built-in sequencer-and she was blown away. The Keyboard forum is a good place to get ideas for technical solutions, but understand that they're gearheads (no offense, y'all-I love yas ) and will quickly get excited about the lastest and the fastest that is probably out of your price range. What you have now may not sound great, but it's probably good enough to get you to the next level where you really could afford a pro rig.

 

If you want to learn about songwriting, composition, etc. my advice is to listen, listen, listen. And not just to music that you like-check out "The Great American Songbook", Italian art songs, Dylan, Hank Williams Sr., Duke Ellington, Gangstarr, Woody Guthrie, Joseph Haydn, Cole Porter, etc. etc. etc. Again, Field, I admire your persistence-keep it up.

[kurdy]

 

The Keyboard forum is a good place to get ideas for technical solutions, but understand that they're gearheads (no offense, y'all-I love yas ) and will quickly get excited about the lastest and the fastest that is probably out of your price range. What you have now may not sound great, but it's probably good enough to get you to the next level where you really could afford a pro rig.

 

 

Well, the kind of questions he's asking, such as not being able to listen to the rest of the tracks while recording--that's a technical problem that he might be able to get more specific answers to over at those other forums than over here. I agree, you always have to be wary of advice from people who think one has to have the latest and greatest of everything. But what he's saying is that the setup he has now is very inconvenient and non-conducive to creating music. All he may need to get started is a decent DAW, (I personaly use Cakewalk Home Studio, which is far from "pro", but it does what I need it to do), and a good soundcard. And those aren't very expensive. Or he just may not need to purchase anything further at all, but simply learn how to get the most out of the setup he already has. Again, provided he explains he's on a budget and can't afford $3000+ pro-gear, those kinds of questions could probably be answered better over there.

 

And of course, if you still have questions about how to get your music heard, or promotion and marketing and all that business, this forum is definitely the place to be. Although most people here don't have all the answers, they will probably be able to provide better insight and perspective about the reality of the biz than most.

[Field]

And of course, if you still have questions about how to get your music heard, or promotion and marketing and all that business, this forum is definitely the place to be. Although most people here don't have all the answers, they will probably be able to provide better insight and perspective about the reality of the biz than most.

 

Sure, thanks.

 

Thanks a lot everyone, your information means a lot to me. And can someone please answer my Myspace question, above!? Everybody has myspace!

[EVHoYEAH]

What was the myspace Q again?