Click tracks, do you all hate them?

[killart]

Hey all,

 

I'm a singer/guitarist in a band and write most of the material. We do a lot of electronic stuff/sequencing in our live show and thus need to sync to sequencing so as to keep with the stuff we cannot play live. As such, our drummer has to wear an ear piece with the click/metronome going. He seems to be having trouble with this however and falls on and off the tempo. Is this normal? He says it makes him mess up, I maintain he has bad timing. Shouldn't it make his job easier? Shouldn't his time be rock solid as a result? As a note, I used to drum and to a click.

 

How do you all feel about click/s metronomes either live or in studio?

 

chava

[Thingfish]

 

He says it makes him mess up, I maintain he has bad timing. Shouldn't it make his job easier?

 

Of course it is not going to make his job easier. His job in a live situation is to lay a foundation that everyone else can ride over so that everyone is held together. Lots of times, the tempos of all the people playing is variable, and the drummer has to speed up and slow down in ways that make the band sound like they are playing together. When you throw in a click, then the drummer has to decide on which to play with, the band or the click.

 

Keep in mind that when the drummer follows the click, and the band doesn't follow the drummer, then the only one that sounds bad is the drummer.

 

Maybe he has bad timing, and that can be the case, but it has always been my experience that guitarists speed up in the easy strumming parts, and slow down during the intricate fret work... and if the guitarist isn't following the drummer, then the drummer either has to adapt or let the band fall apart.

 

Playing to a click in a non-live situation is a different animal.

[SudzDrummer]

I've just started learning how to play with a click. It's exponentially harder for me to play our stuff with the click on simply because the rest of my band listens to their own internal clock and not specifically to my drums. I agree with Fish in saying that the drummer could be on the click while the rest of the band is off of it, and the drummer is the one who gets nailed.

 

I'm learning how to use the click for some upcoming work in the studio, but I won't be using it live simply because I don't think it benefits our music in its current form. As for learning the click for the studio... I'm a bit nervous that I'll have a rough time mastering it... but that's what practice is for.

[Old Steve]

Thingfish nailed it...he's probably used to the band naturally pushing and pulling the tempo.

 

Sometimes a drummer can do everything in his power to try to rein in the rest of the band and keep them in time, and it turns out to be a futile effort, and makes the band sound bad. In most of those instances, it's better to let the tempo fluctuate a little so at least the band is playing tightly together.

 

Bottom line, it's not the drummer's job to keep everyone in time...it's everyone's job to keep time, and the drummer is just the reference point.

 

As for making his job easier...how can you even think for a minute that plugging headphones into something, having to run some kind of module, and then function with it would be "easier" for the drummer. It's not...it's extra work. Especially when the rest of the band isn't staying in time.

 

Here's the best solution: put the click in the monitors so that everyone can play along to it (works best with in-ears). If that's not possible, at least make sure that click is being delivered through quality in-ear headphones that block out exterior noise, and that the "click" itself is done with a sound that cuts through the clutter.

 

If the drummer can hear the click clearly (probably not the case) you at least have a fighting chance.

[vinniewannabe]

 

Of course it is not going to make his job easier. His job in a live situation is to lay a foundation that everyone else can ride over so that everyone is held together. Lots of times, the tempos of all the people playing is variable, and the drummer has to speed up and slow down in ways that make the band sound like they are playing together. When you throw in a click, then the drummer has to decide on which to play with, the band or the click. Keep in mind that when the drummer follows the click, and the band doesn't follow the drummer, then the only one that sounds bad is the drummer. Maybe he has bad timing, and that can be the case, but it has always been my experience that guitarists speed up in the easy strumming parts, and slow down during the intricate fret work... and if the guitarist isn't following the drummer, then the drummer either has to adapt or let the band fall apart. Playing to a click in a non-live situation is a different animal.

 

 

Bingo.

 

The dynamic totally changes from a group of musicians interplaying with each other and adjusting according to the music being played, to the drummer being a slave to the click, praying and hoping the other musicians will be a slave to the drummer. Very different and very challenging, but it can be done.

 

And your also right Thingfish, the poster seems to automatically blame the drummer for all the time problems. I am so tired of that crap. The truth is, the time of the keyboard player, guitarist, vocalist etc etc etc is not perfect, I almost garauntee it. THEY don't have to deal with the push and pull of each others time as much as drummers do. But it's so easy to blame the drummer!

[sidereal]

I would advise against putting the click through a monitor, in-ears or otherwise. Two problems: the audience might hear it, and the band will then have two reference points, the drummer and the click, and that's a trainwreck waiting to happen. Only the drummer should reference the click.

 

Here's what happens a lot: A non-drumming member of the band says "hey we should use a click live." If the drummer says, cool, I'm down with that, I'm very comfortable with a click, then you're all set. But if the drummer has that "aw {censored}" look on his face, you're going to have problems. The final decision of whether or not to use a click should reside with the drummer. Now, if he/she resists, you've got a decision to make. If a bandleader or anyone else feels the click is more important than the drummer, find a new drummer.

 

The problem is, the drummer's feel changes with a click, so both the drummer and the band have to adapt. If the drummer's openminded to it but not skilled with it, I would suggest putting in some serious practice time. The drummer should practice with the click on his own playing his drum kit. Just as important is that the whole band practice with the click more than usual in order for *everyone* to get used to the drummer's more rigid new feel.

 

As for whether I like it, it depends on the situation. I'm not a huge fan of it, but I've been in situations where it's helpful or necessary. (One in particular is when different members have different concepts of a song's tempo, you've got proof right in front of you.) The trick for me was to lay into the click and enjoy it rather than fight against it. This comes from practicing enough so that I made it invisible. After a while, the drummer should not hear it and not really be aware of it. The playing should become so fixed on the beat that you don't really hear it. It's only when you get off it that you become aware of it and you learn to get back on with minimal effort. Like anything else it all becomes second nature. So making the click invisible through personal practice and band practice is the big thing.

[BATCAT]

 

Hey all, I'm a singer/guitarist in a band and write most of the material. We do a lot of electronic stuff/sequencing in our live show and thus need to sync to sequencing so as to keep with the stuff we cannot play live. As such, our drummer has to wear an ear piece with the click/metronome going. He seems to be having trouble with this however and falls on and off the tempo. Is this normal? He says it makes him mess up, I maintain he has bad timing. Shouldn't it make his job easier? Shouldn't his time be rock solid as a result? As a note, I used to drum and to a click. How do you all feel about click/s metronomes either live or in studio? chava

 

 

Although of course there's genres or situations where a click would be silly, in the studio, I generally prefer a click... most of the time. It means

-once the BPM is agreed on, theres no arguments about the right tempo

-I don't have to "click through" pauses, intros, etc

-I can go back and redo drum takes!

-scratch tracks can be recorded without me even being there

 

Live, I'm not crazy about 'em, but I have played in situations with pre-recorded extra tracks where it was practical and necessary to use a click. I didn't find it so bad; maybe a little awkward the first couple times...

 

I agree with the points the other poster about being conscious that the problem might not just be the drummer's time. A lot of the time the drummer is responding to meter cues from other band members.

 

However, assuming you other guys are all locked in with the drums and have good timing, then if he can't play with the click, yes, he does have a timing issue!

[ulank]

 

The problem is, the drummer's feel changes with a click, so both the drummer and the band have to adapt. If the drummer's openminded to it but not skilled with it, I would suggest putting in some serious practice time. The drummer should practice with the click on his own playing his drum kit. Just as important is that the whole band practice with the click more than usual in order for *everyone* to get used to the drummer's more rigid new feel. As for whether I like it, it depends on the situation. I'm not a huge fan of it, but I've been in situations where it's helpful or necessary. (One in particular is when different members have different concepts of a song's tempo, you've got proof right in front of you.) The trick for me was to lay into the click and enjoy it rather than fight against it. This comes from practicing enough so that I made it invisible. After a while, the drummer should not hear it and not really be aware of it. The playing should become so fixed on the beat that you don't really hear it. It's only when you get off it that you become aware of it and you learn to get back on with minimal effort. Like anything else it all becomes second nature. So making the click invisible through personal practice and band practice is the big thing.

 

 

Good points. If a band hasn't played to a click before, one of the first things I think they'll realize is how much tempo change they've actually had in their songs. Once you start trying to play your songs to a click, you realize - geez, the verse feels good, but then the chorus feel slooow, and vice versa. The band as a whole has a tendency to gravitate to what feels right for each part...and it might sound just fine, for the most part, but there are certainly distinct tempo differences. So the first hurdle is getting used to everything being played at the same tempo. As a result, you may have to find a happy compromise so all the parts work at a given tempo. Of course, if you truly have drastic tempo changes, then the click will have to be tweaked accordingly. But more often then not, it's +/- 5BPM and at that point it's best to just settle on one tempo and get comfortable with that.

 

Also, right on about not even being aware/hearing the click once you've got it down. Once you get used to it enough, it will just kind of be there, and you may reference it during large gaps or something, but overall, you should be playing with/through the click rather than "to" the click. Subtle difference, but I guarantee you'll sound rigid as hell playing "to" a click, and will sound more natural playing "through" it.

[manoeuver]

adding a click is difficult.

 

Any drummer worth his salt should be able to play with a click. It takes practice, though.

 

Any other musician should be able to play with a drummer playing with a click. This is difficult, too.

 

Playing with robotic meter is not natural.

 

If your drummer is torn between the mechanical click and feeble-metered musicians, don't blame him; take the time to learn to play your material in time with a click.

 

Once you and your bandmates can all can do that, if your drummer continues to bugger up the meter, then you can point a finger.

 

Without a click, if you speed up or slow down, your drummer will follow you, or gently guide you back to the proper tempo, and it'll all be natural, and feel that way. Use tha machine, and all your failings are laid bare...

[FitchFY]

I'm honestly kind of shocked about the anti-clickism taking place here! I've trained my band to play with me, and I play to a click (well, during practice and in the studio). But they always play to me to get the true organic sound.

 

This isn't to say music doesn't slow up and speed down a little bit. One or two beats per minute can make a huge difference in feel, but that's where bands differ.

 

If you are using a sequencer or samples, it's imperative to use a click for the drummer. Otherwise... wow, that would be sad-sounding!

[manoeuver]

 

I'm honestly kind of shocked about the anti-clickism taking place here! I've trained my band to play with me, and I play to a click (well, during practice and in the studio). But they always play to me to get the true organic sound. This isn't to say music doesn't slow up and speed down a little bit. One or two beats per minute can make a huge difference in feel, but that's where bands differ. If you are using a sequencer or samples, it's imperative to use a click for the drummer. Otherwise... wow, that would be sad-sounding!

 

 

I think everybody here knows how valuable a click can be.

 

You've trained your band to follow your lead (which speaks volumes about your strength as a musician.) I think some bands foist a click on their drummer without being able to play with one themselves, and then accuse the drummer of sucking when things fall apart.

 

Sometimes I bring a click to rehearsal, and use it w/ headphones to see:

how I'm doing with my meter (always a struggle)

how the band's playing the songs.

 

when I pick a tempo and force the band to play it thru a whole tune (not really fair) sometimes it just sounds wrong. If they had asked me to play with the click, and then pointed a finger at me when it felt wrong, that would be a whole nuther story.

[JSimms]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or not, but it takes a hell of a lot of practice to be able to play seamlessly with a metronome. It's also not something that once you master it you can stop practicing--The ability will go away without regular practice. I suppose that what I am getting at is this: Don't be surprised if your drummer takes a while to get this playing-with-a-click-track thing down. Instant success just isn't going to happen. Be patient.

[ulank]

 

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or not, but it takes a hell of a lot of practice to be able to play seamlessly with a metronome. It's also not something that once you master it you can stop practicing--The ability will go away without regular practice. I suppose that what I am getting at is this: Don't be surprised if your drummer takes a while to get this playing-with-a-click-track thing down. Instant success just isn't going to happen. Be patient.

 

 

Definitely a good point that puts some perspective to it. I'd almost say that unless you're always playing with a click, to a degree, each time you try a new song with a click, you sort of have to learn it all over again. This goes back to discovering the existing tempo fluctuations the band was accustom to before playing with a click. Give the drummer some time, practice with it as a band and work on as many songs as possible with the click if you want to be comfortable with it.

 

If you can send the click to the whole band during a practice, then they might understand the challenges of doing it. Then maybe try it with only the drummer being fed the click and see if the rest of the band still hangs. If not, go back to step 1, rinse and repeat until the whole group is comfortable.

[killart]

My apologies for making it seem like it was all the drummer's fault. A few clarifications are in order. Yes, sometimes the band pulls the tempo up, and rather than look like a moron, the drummer must adjust a few BPM's. I noticed my guitar player rushing his ass off yesterday. I yelled at him several times, because it wasn't even natural, it was moronic, ahead of the beat playing.

 

As for the drummer, it was in recording, when playing alone that I began to notice he was speeding up. He was playing a break beat, which I understand can make the tempo vary, but the groove was off. As for changing the feel, without doubt. It's funny cos I costantly yell at him because when he plays with no click, he has gone as far as killing his bpm up to 20 bpm's!

 

 

 

You've all said great things. I keep telling him that in my drumming days, the way to do it was to be so used to the click, that it was an after thought. I thought perhaps he wasn't hearing it, but he claims it's most of what he hears. is it possible it's too much of what he's hearing?

 

As for the monitor idea, not possible, and I won't do it. We follow our drummer. Hence the reason we look to him as the foundation. When tempo subsides, I point to guitarists members first, because usually, they're off in la la land.

 

Some of you have come at me with aggression and have been incredibly defensive, however, I'm of the opinion that drummers are not a dime a dozen and essential to a great band. crappy drummer=crappy band. Always. thanks for your comments

[siberian]

Killart, I have direct experience with this very same issue and I completely understand your dilemma. My band had a lot of industrial elements in it. As a result, we had a lot of pre-recorded backing tracks with sequenced arpeggios, sound effects, and some backing vocals that we used for live performances. These tracks were played back from a multi-track digital recorder which I controlled on stage. In order to pull that off, you HAVE to play along to a click because there's no other way to ensure that those backing tracks would occur at precisely the right moment in the song. So from a different point of view than most of the other respondents to your question, I do understand why you need to use a click live in certain situations.

 

In my case, when I first joined with my band several years ago, I didn't feel very comfortable with a click either. It was a bit of a learning curve to get comfortable with the click. I ultimately had to take a short step backwards in order to take a giant leap forwards. When I first tried it I felt too mechanical, and I was concentrating too much on staying with the click and as a result I was playing very stiff, not loose. I felt like a fish out of water. But I stuck with it , determined to make it work. My playing temporarily suffered from it, but it had to be done.

 

And I'll tell you what... over time, as I naturally got used to the click, it became very easy to play along with it, and not be a slave to it. Eventually I got so comfortable with it that it felt more like I was *feeling* the click more than *hearing* it... if that makes any sense. I could now follow it but not feel like I had to concentrate on it so hard. I almost compare it to breathing. You do it but you don't actually have to actively think about doing it. In a similar way, I'd hear the click and know it's there, but I could now concentrate on my playing, with feel and groove. Granted it took several months to get to that level, but it was a necessity I had to overcome if this band was going to work live... and I eventually did. Just be patient with your drummer. If he really wants to do it, he will.

 

If I could make a few suggestions... First of all, you do not want to have the whole band hearing the click. Just the drummer. Let him control it and let the band follow him. If you try to put the click through the stage wedges, trust me, the band will not hear it very well unless the sound man turns it up louder... and if it is loud enough for the band to hear it through the wedges, then people in the crowd will pick up on it too... and you DEFINATELY don't want that. Besides, it would be a clusterf*ck.

 

Can I ask how you run your backing tracks live? I might have a few suggestions for ways to do this with a click...

[WillyRay]

 

You've all said great things. I keep telling him that in my drumming days, the way to do it was to be so used to the click, that it was an after thought.

 

 

This is exactly the thing. Sounds like he doesn't have much experience with the click. Playing with the click is a skill that must be practiced for many hours before it really works. It sounds to me like you're the band leader, and you've decided that the drummer will use a click. I'm fine with this, but the trick to making it work is going to be dedicated practice with the click, both for him, and for the band. It's not at all surprising that it's train-wrecking when you first try it. The click is hard. I'd say if he can get an hour's practice playing grooves with the click, he can be locked into it in a matter of a few weeks. His time will be better, and the group time will have to adjust to match. THEN he'll be in a position to say, "The guitars are rushing. Trust me, I've got the click." and that'll be great for everybody.

 

/w

 

ps. Stop yelling all the time! You'll give yourself high blood pressure.

[Old Steve]

Ok, so maybe live having everyone hear the click is a bad idea....but I'll tell you first hand, bringing a metronome to rehearsal and pumping it through the PA can be a HUGE eye opener for many non-drummers. I've done this several times where a song starts at one tempo and is 50% faster by the end. Often it's not the drummer who has problems with it, but it's everbody else. Bottom line, it's a pretty interesting little experiment to try.

 

In recording, if you're using any of the new technology, it's pretty essential. Unless you're totally into the organic "one take with the whole band straight through" thing, almost everything these days involves editing, punching in and out, and all kinds of other cutting and pastinig....often when the whole band isn't even there. Keeping the tempo locked down tight is very helpful in that regard.

 

Finally, the best advice I ever heard about playing with a click: pretend it's another musician who happens to a.) have perfect time, and b.) is playing a really boring quarter note beat. Often, when I've struggled with the click, if I just psychologicially start thinking of the click as "Fred on the cowbell" and just play with him...as I would normally lock in with the guitarist or bassist...it magically becomes much easier.

[killart]

In rehearsal, we just run mp3's off an ipod. Sequences panned hard left, clikc hard right. I forget which exactly, but its hard left or right. In any case. Live, we use a minidisc player with the actual audio files. I think we're using the minidisc deck in rehearsal nowadays though. In any case, we send him only the click and route the other channel to the pa. at times, we send him both, and let him mix them to his liking with a little mixer. We use the second output on minidisc player to go to PA etc etc. Is there a better way to do it? We'd use real hardware software live, but I just dont trust hard drives and such.

 

Can I ask how you run your backing tracks live? I might have a few suggestions for ways to do this with a click...

[danrothmusic]

Finally, the best advice I ever heard about playing with a click: pretend it's another musician who happens to a.) have perfect time, and b.) is playing a really boring quarter note beat. Often, when I've struggled with the click, if I just psychologicially start thinking of the click as "Fred on the cowbell" and just play with him...as I would normally lock in with the guitarist or bassist...it magically becomes much easier.

wow, thats darn good advice; it works like a charm!

[Kevin K Is A OK]

I usually have no problems with a click. HOWEVER, if I'm listening to a click while someone else is playing my brain tries to focus on both rather than just the click and it doesn't go well.

[1001gear]

Playing with a click is about chops. Dead stable, no drift, automatic chops. If you've bothered to develop those, the click just keeps it laid out for you.

 

Those of us on the failing side of that issue, we're dealing with mechanical cycles. The physical motions need to be precise, 'circular', and for all intents and purposes, identical from stroke to stroke. Without that, no amount of focus or experience will keep it locked in.

[Pearl Player]

I use a click most of the time. And when your trying to sync with stuff its pretty much the norm. What the click is showing is that the drummer drifts in the first place. When I lay down something in the studio, First thing I do is lay down the click.

 

When I am doing rudies, I use the click. The metronome has its own input on the board.

 

If your playing live material you may or may not need the click. I will use the metronome as a reference to get the tempo then use the sticks to tap it out the the band. We also use some pre-recorded tracks in some material.

 

Its a tool.

 

Mike

[scarecrowbob]

 

Ok, so maybe live having everyone hear the click is a bad idea....but I'll tell you first hand, bringing a metronome to rehearsal and pumping it through the PA can be a HUGE eye opener for many non-drummers. I've done this several times where a song starts at one tempo and is 50% faster by the end. Often it's not the drummer who has problems with it, but it's everbody else. Bottom line, it's a pretty interesting little experiment to try.

 

 

I would say that abgout 80% of my early music expereince (through high school) was playing with a metronome as a large group...

 

....so much so that when I am playing by myself I only consider it "practice" if I am playing with some kind of mechanical beat.

 

That goes for every instrument I play; I've just gotten back into regular clarinet practice, and I have a lot of fun messing around, but unitl I am in the method book playing along with a metronome, I don't really consider it practice.

 

So I am a grown up nerd, but to me a metronome is part of the foundations of musical practice, like understanding a major scale or a quarter note or a single stroke roll.

 

However (to show some of my inexpereince) I have a hard time imagining sending the metronome to just one player. How does that work? I can see how it would technically be acomplished, and I have heard of people doing it... but I can't see how that would work at all.

[BATCAT]

Something I meant to add:

 

It's just a small thing, but it helps... don't just use a quarter-note click. Add a shaker/hi-hat/whatever sound doing 8th notes. It makes a big difference, especially at slower tempos!

[BATCAT]

However (to show some of my inexpereince) I have a hard time imagining sending the metronome to just one player. How does that work? I can see how it would technically be acomplished, and I have heard of people doing it... but I can't see how that would work at all.

 

Assuming the "one player" in question is the drummer, I've done a fair bit of it. (I assume you're talking about live playing, not recording)

 

Basically, you click sticks, or hats- or whatever- through any silent parts or gaps... um, and everyone keep in mind that you're "chained" to the click!