This is how I buy cymbals...

[WillyRay]

I bought a whole new set of pies for the college today and I thought, in light of the various "What's your favorite brand" / "Paiste vs. Zildjian" threads I would chronicle the process I used to do so. This is what I consider the "Right Way".

 

Before I even walk in, here's the first question: What do I need?

I'm buying for a small college. They currently have a set of brilliant-finished A Customs that are way too bright for the concert hall. They just blast through everything. No good. I'll be the primary player of these instruments in performance, but they'll also be used extensively for jazz band rehearsals (which I may be teaching in the fall) and performances and various other things.

 

Ride: I'm looking for a very dry, low-volume ride that has buttloads of stick definition, a strong, beefy bell and a controllable wash. Something that will be clean enough that I can play it in the all-wood choral concert hall without eating up all the acoustic space and washing out the choir. I have a Sabian HH raw dry ride that I love to death and have used in that space before that will be a good template for what I'm searching for.

 

Left-Side: I need a B-section crash/ride that I can play as a crash against the main ride, and that I can ride on for choruses... a versatile cymbal that I can use for lots of different purposes. Again, need lots of stick definition and control, but not so much as the other ride.

 

Hats: I'm not sure what I need. I haven't shopped hats in years, and I don't have a bunch of ideas built up about what's right in terms of how the instrument's shape and weight and lathing effect the sound. I'll have to play this one by ear, because that's the only part of me that knows a good hi-hat.

 

Next question: Budget.

It's nearly the end of the fiscal year and the boss has some budget he needs to get out the door before July 1. I have roughly $800-$1000 to spend.

 

The Approach:

So, well-planned in advance with foreknowledge of what I'm looking for, I head down to my local drum shop. I'm in this place at least once a week, whether I'm buying something or not. They know me, know I mean business and treat me accordingly.

 

I went in at 10am Saturday morning. Essentially the split second that they open, so it's quiet and there's nobody there banging on the kits and hand drums yet.

 

The Process, phase I:

I explained what I needed, and we got to work. We started with the ride. They have lots of stock, but I told him specifically what I was looking for as described above, and we started pulling instruments down that seemed like good matches. Grabbed two cymbal stands out of the hardware section, set them up and started demoing the cymbals against each other.

 

Some were fantastic, other's didn't hit my ears just right and went straight back onto the rack. It's especially important for me to have two cymbals set up next to each other for comparison. I would play fast jazz patterns on one, and then instantly switch over to the other and play the same stuff. I'll also have the sales dude play the two cymbals while I walk around the store. I'll turn my back on him and have him play, so I don't even know which cymbal he's playing.

 

I've got a list of criteria I'm evaluating. Most I've already mentioned. Definition, wash, controllability, bell. One I haven't is complexity of tone. I like a cymbal that is dark and complex for my jazz work, but these cymbals need to be general purpose and not just mine, so I actually sent back a couple of pies I really liked because they were a little too complex.

 

In this back-and-forth, comparative round-robin style, I finally narrowed it down to less than a dozen, including:

 

There was no brand loyalty involved and as I left the guys who were helping me shook my hand and told me how much they enjoy it when a guy comes in and wants to get serious about cymbals. "If they don't sound right in the concert hall, you bring them right back, k?"

 

So, I'm happy, they're happy, and my boss is happy. It took lots of time and patience, but I'm far more certain that I've made the right choices because I spent the time, and really closed my eyes and LISTENED.

 

That is all.

 

/w

[cearleywine]

nice, seems like a set up I'd like.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

Goddamn i wish every customer was like you. I get sick of these passionless idiots that have no clue why they like something and want me to make decisions for them. Funny, i always offer to play the cymbal for them while they stand a few feet away, and they give a weird look every time. You {censored}ing rock.

[twosticks]

Thanks for sharing Willy. I've only been able to get a full set of used cymbals at one time. THe new ones I've gotten one at a time. I shop for cymbals about the same way. Sounds like you have great shop there as well. But then they do know you!

[WillyRay]

 

Goddamn i wish every customer was like you. I get sick of these passionless idiots that have no clue why they like something and want me to make decisions for them. Funny, i always offer to play the cymbal for them while they stand a few feet away, and they give a weird look every time. You {censored}ing rock.

 

 

I hear you. I've seen them do it at the shop. Kid comes in with his mom... zero confidence... asks the sales guy which is better, Zildjian or Sabian, then listens to the sales guy hit ONE cymbal, doesn't even hit it himself, and they walk out the door with it. Happy Birthday, kid.

 

CEM, does it seem like a confidence thing to you, sometimes? Customer doesn't trust his own ears so he just wants you to tell him what to get?

 

/w

[Cross Eyed Mary]

I hear you. I've seen them do it at the shop. Kid comes in with his mom... zero confidence... asks the sales guy which is better, Zildjian or Sabian, then listens to the sales guy hit ONE cymbal, doesn't even hit it himself, and they walk out the door with it. Happy Birthday, kid. CEM, does it seem like a confidence thing to you, sometimes? Customer doesn't trust his own ears so he just wants you to tell him what to get? /w

 

I think it's a hybrid of small(er) confidence and a lack of giving a {censored}. They're the same type of people who say "Nah bro, then i won't have enough for my surfboard" when i tell them they should at least get a DW 7000 over the $30 Pacific EZ Pedal. Then go hang out in the surfboard shop.

 

Another theory of mine is that they're new at it and haven't really developed a strong opinion, they figure they're new at it and don't know {censored} yet, so they rely on the drum shop guy to tell them what a decent cymbal for X amount of money is. The problem is, three years down the road they still act that way, and still would rather drop the big coin on a surfboard than a snazzy ride or kit. I guess it's similar to exploring new genres of music. When i tried to get into jazz, i asked my teacher what a good album is to get started on. He said Kind Of Blue, is a good place to start, and go figure the next day i went to my local record shop and bought it. Didn't even listen to it first. I figured "well {censored}, this guy can shred on Jazz, and has a frigging degree in music, he probably knows his {censored}".

[Carminemw]

Very cool Willy...you are truly a thinking man's drummer. Your dedication really shines through...

[l Baker l]

I've really steered myself away from the whole 'brand-loyalty' thing. For the longest time, if it wasn't a Zildjian, I wouldn't even look at it. Now I'm constantly trying everything and weeding out what styles and sounds I like and dislike. But now I'm weeding it out by sound first, as opposed to brand first.

 

Working at a music store helps in a way as well. I see new stuff come in all the time and being the only drummer in the store, I get first whack [literally ] at everything.

 

But as of late I've been very curious to the Sabian HHX line. Most of my cymbals are very bright and cutting, and I've been thinking of getting a darker crash or two to mix things up. Give my kit some contrast.

 

I'm beginning to ramble.

 

Excellent write-up Willy.

[mraia1]

What a great post!! Very, very interesting, and educational. As someone who is a bit tone deaf, I have a hard time discerning different cymbal sounds from one another, so I have to really put a lot of effort into picking one. Nice to see someone puts even more effort into it.

[Wellhungarian]

Comparing the shopping experience of newbie compared to a veteran is like oil and water. When you have experience, you already have an idea of what you like and dislike. Newbies often refer to drum company marketing, friends/teachers recommendations, drum forums:eek:, or whatever his or her favorite drummer plays. This is a perfect example of developing a relationship with your local drumshop. As you said, he even enjoyed himself. It's a two way street.

 

You chose as Indiana Jones chose the Holy Grail. Intelligently and wisely.

[slap happy drums]

I bought a whole new set of pies for the college today and I thought, in light of the various "What's your favorite brand" / "Paiste vs. Zildjian" threads I would chronicle the process I used to do so. This is what I consider the "Right Way".

 

Before I even walk in, here's the first question: What do I need?

I'm buying for a small college. They currently have a set of brilliant-finished A Customs that are way too bright for the concert hall. They just blast through everything. No good. I'll be the primary player of these instruments in performance, but they'll also be used extensively for jazz band rehearsals (which I may be teaching in the fall) and performances and various other things.

 

Ride: I'm looking for a very dry, low-volume ride that has buttloads of stick definition, a strong, beefy bell and a controllable wash. Something that will be clean enough that I can play it in the all-wood choral concert hall without eating up all the acoustic space and washing out the choir. I have a Sabian HH raw dry ride that I love to death and have used in that space before that will be a good template for what I'm searching for.

 

Left-Side: I need a B-section crash/ride that I can play as a crash against the main ride, and that I can ride on for choruses... a versatile cymbal that I can use for lots of different purposes. Again, need lots of stick definition and control, but not so much as the other ride.

 

Hats: I'm not sure what I need. I haven't shopped hats in years, and I don't have a bunch of ideas built up about what's right in terms of how the instrument's shape and weight and lathing effect the sound. I'll have to play this one by ear, because that's the only part of me that knows a good hi-hat.

 

Next question: Budget.

It's nearly the end of the fiscal year and the boss has some budget he needs to get out the door before July 1. I have roughly $800-$1000 to spend.

 

The Approach:

So, well-planned in advance with foreknowledge of what I'm looking for, I head down to my local drum shop. I'm in this place at least once a week, whether I'm buying something or not. They know me, know I mean business and treat me accordingly.

 

I went in at 10am Saturday morning. Essentially the split second that they open, so it's quiet and there's nobody there banging on the kits and hand drums yet.

 

The Process, phase I:

I explained what I needed, and we got to work. We started with the ride. They have lots of stock, but I told him specifically what I was looking for as described above, and we started pulling instruments down that seemed like good matches. Grabbed two cymbal stands out of the hardware section, set them up and started demoing the cymbals against each other.

 

Some were fantastic, other's didn't hit my ears just right and went straight back onto the rack. It's especially important for me to have two cymbals set up next to each other for comparison. I would play fast jazz patterns on one, and then instantly switch over to the other and play the same stuff. I'll also have the sales dude play the two cymbals while I walk around the store. I'll turn my back on him and have him play, so I don't even know which cymbal he's playing.

 

I've got a list of criteria I'm evaluating. Most I've already mentioned. Definition, wash, controllability, bell. One I haven't is complexity of tone. I like a cymbal that is dark and complex for my jazz work, but these cymbals need to be general purpose and not just mine, so I actually sent back a couple of pies I really liked because they were a little too complex.

 

In this back-and-forth, comparative round-robin style, I finally narrowed it down to less than a dozen, including:

 

 

Willy , you are my new hero, best post ever.

Your post should be printed up and made manditory reading for new cymbal buyers. Cheers

[qwertyMan]

Can we make this a sticky?

[D Carroll]

that sounds very much like the way i chose my ride, i narrowed it down to 2 contestants, Sabian 20'' aa dry bell, and a Zildjian a 21'' medium thin, the zildjian sounded perfect for what i needed, i think i made the right choice. Now, for my hats, i went with price, i ended up getting 13'' k/z's for 100 bucks, and i still am not sure if i love it or not, but it works...

[k7mto]

Great post and very well thought out process.

 

I see no mention of Paiste. Were they never considered (too pricey for the budget?) or did the shop just not stock any?

[Jarick]

I'm jealous, I'll admit! It's a great idea to spend a lot of time playing the cymbals together so you know how they work as a family.

 

Personally, I just send an e-mail to Saluda, explain as best I can, and get one in the mail, but I'm cheap. I don't necessarily get my dream cymbal sound, but I usually get something either very good or interesting enough to inspire me.

[WillyRay]

 

Great post and very well thought out process. I see no mention of Paiste. Were they never considered (too pricey for the budget?) or did the shop just not stock any?

 

 

They have quite a bit of Paiste, but I'm not really familiar with their product lines. So, while I knew that I was looking for K-ish or HH-ish sounds, I didn't even consider the Paistes... I was visually scanning the racks for things I thought might sound the way I wanted. If the sales mensch had said, "try this Paiste," I certainly would have.

 

/w

[Cross Eyed Mary]

 

They have quite a bit of Paiste, but I'm not really familiar with their product lines. So, while I knew that I was looking for K-ish or HH-ish sounds, I didn't even consider the Paistes... I was visually scanning the racks for things I thought might sound the way I wanted. If the sales mensch had said, "try this Paiste," I certainly would have. /w

 

 

 

Paiste Traditionals would be the line that would be your bag. Granted it makes no difference now, but for future reference, ya know?

The Dark energies have a good dark tone but they'd probably still have just a little too much volume for what you described.

[k7mto]

Paiste Traditionals would be the line that would be your bag. Granted it makes no difference now, but for future reference, ya know? The Dark energies have a good dark tone but they'd probably still have just a little too much volume for what you described.

 

And while nothing compares to hearing it live, the Paiste website has sound files of every cymbal style/size and a you can add them to your personal sound room which allows you to hear/compare the different types...

 

http://www.paiste.com/e/cymbalfam.php

 

It's a good way to narrow down to a few choices online, then go hear them live. Something to consider the next time they give you another grand to spend

[drumtechdad]

 

at everything.

 

 

If I worked in a drum shop I don't think I'd ever achieve a positive cash-flow.

[l Baker l]

If I worked in a drum shop I don't think I'd ever achieve a positive cash-flow.

 

Well being that I'm outta school for the summer... having two other jobs helps a bit

 

But it's hard. There's new and used {censored} comming in all the time, and I just want everything. I have some K Custom Hybrids coming in next Monday to try out. As well as a Sabain HHX I think. I pull so much stuff in, I can't keep track of it all.

 

It's also hard that I also play guitar and every nice acoustic I get my hands on, I want. I have a Japanese Alvarez Yairi on the way, which is costing me a pretty penny. And I'm looking to maybe get a Peavey Delta Blues for the cleaner/bluesy/jazzy guitar playing. My brother has the Line 6 which covers the heavy-heavy nicely, so I need some contrast.

 

Again... ranting.