Diameter VS depth. How does each affect the sound?

[willhaven]

I'm mostly a guitar player, but I'm looking to get a kit. I grew up in a house with a kit, so I can play, I just haven't had access to a kit for about 5 years.

 

I'm looking to get some DWs, and I'm wondering, in general, how does the diameter of the drum VS the depth of the drum affect the overall sound?

 

I want a low sounding kick drum that isn't loose. I'm not sure if I'd want to go with a 24" or 26" with a standard or thinner depth, or whether I'd want to go with a standard diameter (22") and get a deeper drum (~20").

 

I also like really responsive snares that cut through the mix. Fairly high pitched.

 

Any recommendations would be great.

 

I've had a hard-on for DWs ever since I played a tiny kit about 8 years ago. They were very small but they sounded better than any set of drums I had played up to that point.

[D Carroll]

If you can't answer that, then you don't need dw's.

[willhaven]

Gee, thanks for nothing.

 

Next?

[cearleywine]

The way I understand is depth is usually how much it will allow resonance, how long the note will hold. The diameter usually determines the range of pitch.

[D Carroll]

The shorter the tom, the more attack and punch you will get out of it, the taller the shell, the more boom you will get out of it.

[slap happy drums]

Width = range

Length = resonance

 

+ a little magic , and you got a drum

[willhaven]

So a piccolo snare is shallow because they don't want it to resonate as much as a regular snare? The basically want a harsher attack with a dramatic drop-off in resonance.

 

By the logic given here, a wide/shallow kick would sound both deeper and tighter than a narrower/deeper kick of the same construction? Generally speaking, that is.

 

What about those vented snares that OCDP has been making?

[D Carroll]

 

So a piccolo snare is shallow because they don't want it to resonate as much as a regular snare? The basically want a harsher attack with a dramatic drop-off in resonance. By the logic given here, a wide/shallow kick would sound both deeper and tighter than a narrower/deeper kick of the same construction? Generally speaking, that is. What about those vented snares that OCDP has been making?

 

 

Yes, and the vented snares are made to be cranked, think of the 311 snare sound...

[polarnewfie]

If you can't answer that, then you don't need dw's.

 

That response sounded like one I got a couple of months ago. I called an airline ticket counter to get quotes for air travel. I asked the lady nicely how much a ticket on business class cost as I was actually gonna try and not "slum it" for that trip, and get a nice comfortable seat for once.

The BEOTCH actually said to me " Listen Honey..... If you have to ask how much the tickets are, then you cant afford it." I almost went through the phone to her, I just couldn't believe what she said to me. I asked her what her name was, and she hung up on me. (I actually knew what it was , as I wrote it down when she answered the phone saying "hello, air canada, trudy speaking...."

I called back and asked for her again, and she hung up on me again. So I called back and talked to the manager, and he was aghast at her behaviour. I ended up getting a free one way flight anywhere they fly (or round trip short haul) So the moral of the story is just because he is asking about the drum types, doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to play them, If he can afford them, why should he get crapped on by us. I personally would have loved to get my feet wet on a set of DW's when I started , if I could have afforded them back then, Instead I had a crappy set of Baxter's that must have been made of pine plies. Lets be a little more constructive around here, and a little less of the negativity would go a long way to harbouring a nice community of drumming brothers. That is all.

[thelegacy]

That response sounded like one I got a couple of months ago. I called an airline ticket counter to get quotes for air travel. I asked the lady nicely how much a ticket on business class cost as I was actually gonna try and not "slum it" for that trip, and get a nice comfortable seat for once. The BEOTCH actually said to me " Listen Honey..... If you have to ask how much the tickets are, then you cant afford it." I almost went through the phone to her, I just couldn't believe what she said to me. I asked her what her name was, and she hung up on me. (I actually knew what it was , as I wrote it down when she answered the phone saying "hello, air canada, trudy speaking...." I called back and asked for her again, and she hung up on me again. So I called back and talked to the manager, and he was aghast at her behaviour. I ended up getting a free one way flight anywhere they fly (or round trip short haul) So the moral of the story is just because he is asking about the drum types, doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to play them, If he can afford them, why should he get crapped on by us. I personally would have loved to get my feet wet on a set of DW's when I started , if I could have afforded them back then, Instead I had a crappy set of Baxter's that must have been made of pine plies. Lets be a little more constructive around here, and a little less of the negativity would go a long way to harbouring a nice community of drumming brothers. That is all.

 

One thing I've learned from businesses... If you complain, they will do EVERYTHING to keep you as a customer. A free plane ticket definitely doesn't hurt.

[willhaven]

Well, I'm not really starting per se, I actually had a crappy kids Remo kit when I was a kid (8 or 9 maybe). I always played when I was in bands and had a kit available (from 15-20). My bands always played at my house, so there was always a kit there for me to bash on. Aside from the actual drummer in the band, I was always the other guy who could kinda hack it if the drummer were out and we were trying to jam out some riffs and write a song.

 

Were I weary of my ability to play and use the kit, I wouldn't be willing to invest so heavily in an expensive kit. I know I'll play them and I know I can end up being a fairly competent drummer. I just haven't had the luxury of sitting down to compare high end kits side-by-side before, which is why I'm looking for some really generalized advice. I'll probably end up going with fairly standard sizes. I don't plan to go too radical.

 

As for the vented snares... that sounds nice. The drummer I played with was always cranking the {censored} out of his snare head. I always liked the way it sounded. I didn't know the guy from 311 was an OCDP user. I always liked their sound but hated their music.

[cearleywine]

 

The BEOTCH actually said to me " Listen Honey..... If you have to ask how much the tickets are, then you cant afford it." I almost went through the phone to her, I just couldn't believe what she said to me. I asked her what her name was, and she hung up on me. :

 

 

Wow, that's f*cking bull{censored}. I would of been so pissed, good man.

[Kevin K Is A OK]

Q: how do you know a drummer is on the phone?

 

 

 

A: they can't afford business class!!!! lollollol

[Jarick]

Diameter affects the pitch mainly. Larger drums have lower pitches.

 

Depth affects how quickly the drum responds, sustain/bloom, and the amount of shell sound compared to heads/snares.

 

So for example, a 14" deep kick drum will respond quickly, have short sustain, and allow a prominent amount of head noise (punch and boom). An 18" deep kick drum will have a slightly slower response, have longer sustain, and the drum will sound more like a musical note.

 

A 4" deep snare will have a very quick response, little sustain, and will bright and have lots of snare wire sound. An 8" deep snare will have a slower response, more sustain, and will be darker with a much quieter snare wire sound. That's probably why snare drums are so much shallower than toms and kick drums, you want that snappy sound usually.

 

a 7x12 tom will have quick response, shorter sustain, and really take on the characteristic of the head (bright clear ply, warm coated, etc). A 10x12 tom will have slower response, longer sustain, and will be darker/woodier sounding regardless of head.

[willhaven]

Ah, so shorter drums will pick up the characteristics of the heads used a bit more? That's not something I had thought about before.

 

I typically like percussion to be really responsive and decay quickly. It sounds like going slightly smaller on depth would be a good idea to get what I'm after.

 

Thanks guys.

[rfdias]

Um...no. I have to disagree here.

 

The general statement of Diameter = pitch and depth = resonance (or some small symantic variation on that) is correct. But, the details are not wuite right. Diameter controling basic pitch, OK. But the latter...

 

Depth plays into 3 audible factors: Attack (the initial strike of stick to head), the "response" (sustain, or what ever we call it), ie, the sound wave bouncing off the bottom head, and the tone that is produced by the shell (ie, maple, birch, asch, cherry, whatever). All three contribute to the sound.

 

In general:

1) the shorter the tom/bass, the greater the response/sustain. The bottom head tone is more important than the shell tone. (the longer the note, in general).

2) the deeper the tom/bass, the bottom head response becomes muted, the shell tone becomes more pronounced (the shorter the note in general).

3) snares are a bit different. Yes, the shorter the depth, the quicker the response, the deeper, a slower response. However, piccolos were designed for hi-sestitivity at low volume situations (like an orchestra playing Bolero). They don't necessarily "ring" more...the short depth makes them very sensitive. Greater depth, less so.

 

Results: Again, in general, alot of metal guys play deep toms/basses. Why? Well, with the deeper shells, the attack is more prominent than the response/sustain (of either the shell or the bottom head). This allows you to play a lot of notes (eg, blasts) and they sound like machine gun fire as opposed to mush. Everything sounds like cannon fire...all attack, no sustain.

 

Everyone (blues, jazz, rock, fusion, metal, whatever) selects depths to suite their need for sustain in the note played.

 

All else being equal...Head selection, tuning, etc. There are some really good videos floating around, especially one or two by Billy Ward that better explain and demonstrate these principles. Given that he is playing a DW kit, you should check them (videos of his clinics) out.

 

Your mileage may vary...Bob

[rfdias]

Minimal words of wisdom...

 

Go play a short stack kit, then play a "square" kit. Listen to the difference.

Don't buy anything until you know exactly what sound you want and understand how it is achieved. Bob

[pinkpunkcaddy]

 

What about those vented snares that OCDP has been making?

 

 

I have one. Its great! Its 6x14 with four 2" vents. I can crank it and it is all pop. But I can also keep it a little less tight and get some good sounds there too.

[Jarick]

What I've noticed with floor toms:

 

13x16 sounds like a big tom, lots of sustain, not a lot of low end, quicker response, attack and bloom are unified.

 

14x16 had more sustain, more low end, a bit slower response, bloom was slightly delayed after attack making it seem bigger and "deeper".

 

16x16 had short sustain, most low end, slowest response, bloom was even more delayed after attack for that deep "cannon" sound.

 

For mounted toms:

 

8x12 had good sustain, not much low end, quick response, tom "sang" as the attack and bloom were unified.

 

9x12 had more sustain, a bit more low end "punch", a bit slower response, tom had more balance between "singing" and sounding "deep"

 

10x12 had shorter sustain, more low end "punch", slower response, and had a bit more of that "cannon" deep sound but higher pitched than the floor tom

 

For kick drums:

 

16x22 had short sustain, limited low end, quick response, lots of attack

 

17x22 had a bit more sustain, a bit more low end, a bit slower response, a balance of attack and bloom

 

18x22 had a bit more sustain as well (maybe due to low tuning?), lots of low end, a bit slower response, more pronounced bloom after the initial attack

 

And with snares:

 

5x14 had short sustain, some low end, quick response, and lots of snare sound compared to the shell

 

6x14 had more sustain, more low end, a bit slower response, and a bit less snare sound compared to the shell (warmer)

 

7x14 had a bit less sustain, lots of low end, slow response, and the snares and attack were drowned out quite a bit by the shell as it was very warm

 

-------

 

Maybe there's a maximization of depth versus sustain...FAST sizes are a good compromise, shallower gives you quicker response and more of a note quality, deeper gives you slower response and more of an attack-bloom "depth"?

[Jarick]

I'll also add that I kind of liked the 8x12 and will have another alongside a 7x10 for my mounted toms on my next kit. The thinner shells should give them a bit more sustain and lower pitches and the rounder edges will give a bit more low end.

 

I liked my 14x16 best so I'll have one of those plus a 12x14. Every 14" I've had was 11x14 and didn't seem deep or powerful enough to be a good floor tom.

 

I'm thinking either 16x24 or 17x24 on my kick. I really liked the power of an 18x22 but going an inch shallower would add more response to a larger diameter drum. 18x22 is my favorite 22" though.

 

With the snare, 5x14 I like for metal snares as the ring of the shell itself doesn't drown out the heads as much. My 7x14 was too deep and warm, so my 6x14 with a thicker shell should have a good balance between crack and body.