So what makes a good studio kit?

[FWAxeIbanez]

So I realize that with good mic choices and placement, any kit that sounds good in a room will sound good on tape, but what would you look for in a kit that was exclusively for tracking? I'm wanting to leave this kit set up in my recording space so I can really learn the ins and outs of it. It will probably never get disassembled, so "road worthiness" isn't a factor, and volume/projection isn't really a concern either since it just has to sound good on it's own in front of the mics.

 

I'm recording mainly faster paced "heavy" music with double bass, but I'm a bit reluctant to say "metal". I would think that a good all around "rock" kit should do the job. I'm looking for a big organic sound, which I'm sure is something you've heard before, I just don't really know how to explain it further. My problem is I'm a guitarist that bought an electric kit and got hooked I figured it's time to learn the finer points of drums, so it's time for an acoustic kit, plus I'm sick of recording all the garbage "pressed cardboard" kits that the local bands come in with. I wish I could narrow down what I want a bit better, I just don't have an ear for what different woods, sizes, or ply's bring to the table. I'd appreciate any help you can give, whether it's a specific kit, set of sizings, or a suggestion on woods used...

 

Recap:

$1500 (only have throne and double bass pedal)

Studio use only

5 or 6 pieces

for Heavy Music (think Isis, Neurosis, Mouth of the Architect, Zao, Breather Resist, Converge, Botch)

 

I don't mind skimping on cymbals, because I'm sure my technique is bad and I'll be busting them up pretty quickly. Main priority is the snare and the rest of the shells.

 

What's caught my eye so far: Mapex Pro M, Mapex Saturn Crossover (a stretch, maybe in bad condition?) Yamaha Oak Custom, Yamaha Recording Custom. The Taye Studio Maple kit looks great but I've never been in the same room with a Taye, so I don't know how they sound...

[Cross Eyed Mary]

It depends, for Isis style {censored}, i'd go with some old ludwig 3 plys. Big, fat, warm, ballsy. Fill in all that lovely space with some deep ass tone.

For faster post-hardcore {censored} like Zao, something with more attack, oak custom or recording custom.

 

 

Thinner shels have more low end and resonance, thicker shells have more slap and attack and a slightly higher pitch.

 

 

 

FWIW, the shells are what you should be skimping on, a good drummer will make them sound awesome, but {censored}ty cymbals are downright {censored}ing heresy around these parts.

 

What sound do YOU like from drums? Can you go used?

[Cross Eyed Mary]

Here, check this out.

 

http://www.musicgoround.com/gear/inventorydetails.asp?id=649900

 

Yeah, tacky finish, but you're gonna want bigger sizes for the {censored} you're playing, and this one's nice and big. And with some coated emperors, they'd sound great. And it leaves you almost a grand for high end cymbals. Big and washy works well for your stuff.

[joe97yo]

something with focused fundamental pitch, like birch, and well tuned/dampened heads(note that WELL dampened and HEAVILY dampened are two different things:cop:). bright cymbals could work for your music, but dark ones always record good IMO.

[FWAxeIbanez]

Well, I want to really skimp on cymbals so I can save up and get something great later... I am really hoping I'm at a price range where I won't have to ever replace the the shells unless I want a different more specialized sound... Once I've beaten my beginner cymbals to death I'll step up to something respectable.

 

Buying used is preferred honestly... I'm just hoping there are some options out there that I can find locally so I don't have to pay for shipping.

[manoeuver]

CEM nailed it.

 

what makes a good studio kit?

 

skulls.

 

{censored}ing brilliant.

[boxofrocks]

+1 If ya got 1500 spend 500 on the kit and 1000 on the cymbals. Maybe a used stage custom, with good heads, and some nice K's or A customs. Good heads an tuning can make cheaper drums sound great, but crap cymbals just sound like crap. Thin cymbals record nice, not as loud so they don't take over the overheads.

[Jarick]

Well obviously I think the closeout Pro M's are a good value, because I bought one. Comes with hardware. Still have $700-800 leftover for cymbals, which could buy a fair number of Saludas, or a handful of name brand cymbals.

 

I'd say a Studio kit should be resonant, lively, easy to tune, and versatile. Needs excellent build quality. Can use a variety of heads for a variety of sounds. Damn near any intermediate or better maple drum set should fit the bill, and use heads, tuning, and muffling to push in one direction or the other.

[manoeuver]

ok seriously, you could do much worse than these:

http://merced.craigslist.org/msg/961102872.html

[Cross Eyed Mary]

CEM nailed it. what makes a good studio kit? skulls . {censored}ing brilliant.

 

Yeah, i know, But it's cheap and big and nobody will have to see it.

[FWAxeIbanez]

What tonal differences can I expect on an Oak vs. the standard Maple shell pack? Maybe a tad brighter? Oak is a harder wood right? I dunno for sure...

 

 

+1 If ya got 1500 spend 500 on the kit and 1000 on the cymbals. Maybe a used stage custom, with good heads, and some nice K's or A customs. Good heads an tuning can make cheaper drums sound great, but crap cymbals just sound like crap. Thin cymbals record nice, not as loud so they don't take over the overheads.

 

 

Ok, noted. I'm getting the idea that I'm in a price range where the quality of the shells doesn't vary too much... It's sounding like maintenance/tuning and head choices will make more difference than a couple hundred extra bucks. Maybe it's time I get a bit edumacated on cymbal packs, and make sure I get a killer snare...

[Jarick]

If I could only buy nice drums or cymbals, it would be cymbals. They are much more obvious on tape.

[Jarick]

Oh yeah, PDP's are fantastic, at least those MX series.

 

For cymbals, you can probably find some used Zidljian New Beats for $150 or so, buy a couple A Customs if you like the shimmery crashes for $400, and then a heavy ride used for $150 or so.

 

For snare, if the stock snare is awful, pick up a Ludwig Acrolite for under $100 used.

[manoeuver]

What tonal differences can I expect on an Oak vs. the standard Maple shell pack? Maybe a tad brighter? Oak is a harder wood right? I dunno for sure...

honestly, unless you've been working at it for years you're going to have a very hard time telling the difference.

Hmmm, I'll have to look into those... To be honest I've kind of side stepped "pdp" and a lot of the "made by:" brands out there because I really don't want to pay for a brand name.

in the middle price range the brand names usually ensure decent quality. be more wary of no-name stuff.

I can't believe you looked in my local craigslist, cheers to you!

I'm a freaking craigs junkie. I also like helping people find kits!

So, what I'm hearing from the rest of you folks is that I have it a bit backwards, and I shouldn't focus so much on the shells? I understand that the idea is to have good quality in both, but I was kind of thinking I should make this a "two stage" purchase and I was thinking I'd be better off replacing cheap cymbals down the line than shells. I can use my drummer's AAX's until I get some good ones on my own, but if you think I'm really bass ackwards in my rationale, then please say so.

Your real investment in drums is the time it'll take to get them sounding good. get some well-built/ mid level drums and learn how to make them sound great. A skilled guy can tune a POS and make it sound great. A foolish person will spend $2K on drums and assume they'll do all the work. it doesn't work that way.

Ok, noted. I'm getting the idea that I'm in a price range where the quality of the shells doesn't vary too much... It's sounding like maintenance/tuning and head choices will make more difference than a couple hundred extra bucks. Maybe it's time I get a bit edumacated on cymbal packs, and make sure I get a killer snare...

Great idea.

[FWAxeIbanez]

 

honestly, unless you've been working at it for years you're going to have a very hard time telling the difference.

 

I can definitely respect that statement, but I'd still like to hear it described so I know what to listen for. I plan on keeping these a while, and since the drums will be going to tape, I'll have plenty of time to analyze what I'm hearing.

 

I think I'm going to focus on an Oak Custom or a Recording Custom from yamaha because I have had great experiences with their kits. Maybe since they are similar sets by the same manufacturer, it would be good to hear about the wood differences since construction techniques and sizes probably aren't blurring the tonal differences.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

I know what I hate and that's thin and "pokey" drums, especially on the snare. I want shells with a good weighty body, and I want a snare that is going to deliver a hearty and broad sounding "thwack" as opposed to what I can only describe as a "thip". You sound like you are familiar with the genre I'm talking about so I'll look into your recommendations. I'm doin my best here, I appreciate all the help with the absence of finger pointing and laughing Guess I'm just another noob asking for big and ominous drum sounds... I realize that a lot of that is technique too, but my drummer has the chops, he just has absolutely zero interest in gear. The guy will play any kit you put in front of him and make it sound as good as it ever did, so I can't wait to put something in front of him that is worthy of the time he's put into his technique. Wow, being a "wood" obsessed guitar guy, I didn't expect that... Glad I talked to you guys. Guess it makes sense tho since cymbals take a lot longer to decay than the shells, you happen to hear them a bit more. I can definitely respect that statement, but I'd still like to hear it described so I know what to listen for. I plan on keeping these a while, and since the drums will be going to tape, I'll have plenty of time to analyze what I'm hearing. I think I'm going to focus on an Oak Custom or a Recording Custom from yamaha because I have had great experiences with their kits. Maybe since they are similar sets by the same manufacturer, it would be good to hear about the wood differences since construction techniques and sizes probably aren't blurring the tonal differences.

 

Right, so it sounds like you need a thinner maple shell. Oak is heavy as {censored} and very loud and bright, birch can get plenty of low end but it's a tighter, more focused sound.

 

I'd have to reccomend some vintage ludwigs, the 3 ply shells just have stupid amounts of warm, dark, low end tone. When i saw Russian Circles a few months back, the drummer for Young Widows had some old B/O badge luddies and they were just perfect for that stuff. Sounded phenomenal.

 

And as for the cymbal thing, it's got nothing to do with decay. Drummers, for the most part, aren't responsible for melody and the lead sounds listeners hear. We make booms and thuds and dooooms, any well made kit can technically achieve this. The audience really isn't going to know any better, they just hear the afforementioned sounds, but cymbals have a much harder time faking it.

 

Example:

 

Here are some high end cymbals made by Bosphorous. They are hand cast, hand hammered, hand lathed, etc using pretty old techniques. No computer machines, just really grumpy looking Turkish men who do it ALL by hand. They're made in Turkey, i believe. As you're watching this video, notice how rich, complex, smooth, dark, etc these cymbals sound.

They're hand made from a B20 bronze alloy, an alloy that while difficult to work with, results in a very rich tone.

[YOUTUBE]mub9qV1asVU[/YOUTUBE]

 

These cymbals will run you about the same amount as a Zildjian K or K Custom, but they're harder to find used because teenage dip{censored}s without a clue don't waltz into GC and have mom by a whole set of Bosphorous cymbals.

 

 

 

Now lets visit the other end of the spectrum, the {censored} you planned on getting. Here's a Sabian B8 ride. This is made from stamped out blanks of cheap B8 bronze, any and all lathing or other work is not done by hand. Cheap materials, cheap, parts, etc.

 

[YOUTUBE]0EQfuqryft4[/YOUTUBE]

 

Notice how it sounds dull, clangy, obnoxious, monotone, etc?

 

High end cymbals can be found used for great prices. Go with the good stuff.

[FWAxeIbanez]

 

I'd have to reccomend some vintage ludwigs, the 3 ply shells just have stupid amounts of warm, dark, low end tone. When i saw Russian Circles a few months back, the drummer for Young Widows had some old B/O badge luddies and they were just perfect for that stuff. Sounded phenomenal.

 

 

You're speaking my language now... Young Widows have some of the best drum tones I've ever heard on tape. Probably one of my favorite recorded snare sounds ever. So deep and rich sounding, but I figured I'd need a little bit more attack since Young Widows are on the sparse side and the drums have the room to sound that big without being overbearing. I could probably make up the difference and get the "bite" I need with different heads tho, yeah?

 

I tried searching ebay for "3 ply ludwig" but I got mostly individual parts. Can anybody tell me some model names that I can search for?

 

Thanks so much guys!

[RumStik]

 

...it would be good to hear about the wood...

 

 

Some wood info...

[boomboomdrums]

 

Notice how it sounds dull, clangy, obnoxious, monotone, etc? High end cymbals can be found used for great prices. Go with the good stuff.

 

 

Wow, all you need with that Bosphourous commercial is to have Billy Mays yelling "THESE ARE THE BEST CYMBALS AND IF YOU BUY NOW YOU GET TWO !! !!" I'm not saying they're not better cymbals, but on one hand you got a professionaly produced commercial by Bosphorous up against a recording made to make the B8s sound bad. They had a {censored}ty video camera mic about 1 foot from the cymbal. No wonder you hear all that noise.

 

My opinion on your question is just go to the store and listen to some kits. Screw what kind of wood they're made of. It matters not. The heads and tuning account for about 80% of the sound of the drum. Just get quality drums with good bearing edges and you'll be able to make a fine recording. As long as don't get crap cymbals and go with some nice Zildjains or Paiste or Sabians, or Bosphorous, you should be OK there too. Again, listen to a bunch and buy the ones you think sound best. You can't go by someone else's opinion or how they sound in a video. Once you get them home set up on your kit they'll sound different anyway I guarantee.

 

But I'm not a gear snob. But have been complimented my whole career for having good sounding drums.

[Cross Eyed Mary]

 

You're speaking my language now... Young Widows have some of the best drum tones I've ever heard on tape. Probably one of my favorite recorded snare sounds ever. So deep and rich sounding, but I figured I'd need a little bit more attack since Young Widows are on the sparse side and the drums have the room to sound that big without being overbearing. I could probably make up the difference and get the "bite" I need with different heads tho, yeah? I tried searching ebay for "3 ply ludwig" but I got mostly individual parts. Can anybody tell me some model names that I can search for? Thanks so much guys!

 

 

3 ply is the shell layup. 1 ply of maple, 1 core ply of poplar, and 1 ply of maple, with 4 (?) ply maple reinforcement rings. The models to look for are clubdates, Standards, classics. Just search vintage Ludwig and browse the assload of stuff. Musicgoround.com, and forums are good places too. I've seen a {censored} ton of awesome vintage deals go down at drumforum.org

 

I'm not sure what he used in the studio, but live he was using a 6.5x14 Pork Pie black chrome over brass.

 

And yes, clear heads will add a significant amount of attack if you need it.

[manoeuver]

I've played lots of Yamahas, the kits you mentioned are really nice. You'll also be able to get excellent sounds with a set of Stage Customs or Tour customs. Don't overlook older kits, too, I have some 1981 Stage series that I rehearse and record with- they sound great and I paid $300 for them.

[FWAxeIbanez]

What is the significance of the bearing edges and how they're cut? I'm looking at an auction that mentions they sent the drums out to have the bearing edges recut to "double 45 degree's with slight roundover" like it's a selling point. Is this something work extra attention?

[Jarick]

Sharper edges = brighter tone, more articulation, but pickier with heads and tuning and more ring

 

Flatter edges = warmer tone, less articulation, more forgiving with heads and tuning and less ring

 

Double 45's with a flattened edge is a very good compromise.

[D Carroll]

Get Wuhan cymbals.

[RickP]

For Recording kits something more important than the brand of drums you want, is the following:

 

The drums have to be round - I know this sounds silly but sometimes shells go out of round.Check this out before your purchase.Measure across the shell from a few different pints to see if the diameter is the same all around.

 

The bearing edges need to be straight and smooth- no dips or waves in the bearing edge.They need to be cut well.The drum head needs to be seated properly.You can take the hoops and head off and check the bearing edge for straightness on a smooth flat surface.Shine a light inside and see if you se any light escaping.

 

The drums need to have no rattles or buzzes when played.Sometimes the springs in the lugs rattle and may need to be packed with felt or cotton balls.

Check your tom mounts and floor tom legs to make sure they operate properly and don't buzz when the drum is struck.

 

Don't take in more drums into the studio than you absolutely have to have.It is easier to record a smaller kit than a larger- if you don't need the 4 mounted toms and three floor toms then don't bring them into the studio.many recordings are done on a basic 4 piece kit and they sound great!

 

Make sure you have good quality heads - check them out thoroughly - check that they have straight rims .Look ate the coating( if you want coated heads)

Hold the rim by the edge and tap the head with your finger - you will want to pick out heads that have the most resonance regardless if they are 1 ply head or 2 ply.You can always muffle drums- you can't add resonance to a dead head.

 

Hope this helps.