Members ZZbottom Posted June 6, 2002 Members Share Posted June 6, 2002 I'm sure we've all come across this kind of thing before, but advice would be welcomed....What kind of agreements exist between band members? The reason I ask is that ours is a fairly normal 5 piece pub rock band, each with our own gear....some have spent more than others, but that's in the past, so doesn't come into the equation...A few gigs under the belt, a few quid under the bed as a result....So you go out and buy (say) a new mike, or get an amp repaired, or buy a multicore - it doesn't really matter what, but what's the consensus of opinion as to expenditure? Similarly, if a band member leaves, divi up the remainder? What about the items already purchased? Has he/she any comeback? What if they haven't left voluntarily??I'd be interested to hear other arrangements that bands have drawn up in the past, please.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted June 6, 2002 Members Share Posted June 6, 2002 This would be a good thing for "Blustrat" to answer. I would venture to keep any reciepts you have an maybe configure some things in like Excell and keep track of every penny. I am trying to divide assets up now from a defunct band and it's a bitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EngineGuitarist Posted June 6, 2002 Members Share Posted June 6, 2002 have an agreement stating that all equipment bought will come from the band fund. if a memeber leaves or is fired, no equipment or compensation for equipmetn will be given. the equipment is owned by the band regardless of linu-ep changes. as for fixing equipment, i'd say make each person pay for their own gear, but in case of an emergency money will be allocated to the member in need of cash as a loan and must be repaid within however many days. If the band completely splits up, everything must be divided equally. if you have a piece of equipment that costs a lot (say a computer) than whoever gets that, won't get anything else and will have to pay the remainder to the other band members. Ex. a G4 worth $2000, a digi001 worth $800, and various mics worth $600. say its a 3 piece band to make easy math. each person gets something different. the total value is $3400, split by 3 is about $1130 per person. whoever get the G4 owes $870 between the other two.. the guy getting the digi also gets $330 and the guy getting all the mics get the remaining $540. everything is split equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EcHoplex Posted June 6, 2002 Members Share Posted June 6, 2002 what's the consensus of opinion as to expenditure? I would keep all personal gear and/or purchases seperate. WHY?Because if you all pool your money together, eventually you'll be inviting mis-fortune into your life. You'll be going through that whole terrain of who spent what and who should own such & such piece of equipment. A total pain in the ass to deal with. Keep it simple. Everyone should be responsible for their own equipment. If you can - always rent a sound system. It's cheaper and less maintenance costs you'll have to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members swingset Posted June 7, 2002 Members Share Posted June 7, 2002 Originally posted by EcHoplex If you can - always rent a sound system. It's cheaper and less maintenance costs you'll have to deal with. Not true at all. It only took us a year to pay for a very nice rig, and now EVERY penny of EVERY gig pays us - plus we know EXACTLY what to expect from our sound, and we never have to scramble to find PA when a gig comes up. Owning your own is, for a regular gigging band, nearly always more profitable unless you play houses where PA is provided. As for how we split the PA? We agreed that the band's entire gigging income would pay for the PA until it was complete - thereafter we would each draw $50 per gig, with the remaining going towards consumables, equipment, etc. When a band member quits or gets the boot, he loses his share of PA, or the band can option to "buy him out". Sure things change when you go separate ways - often things get ugly, but if it's an agreement upfront, then it's settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EcHoplex Posted June 7, 2002 Members Share Posted June 7, 2002 When a band member quits or gets the boot, he loses his share of PA, or the band can option to "buy him out". Sure things change when you go separate ways - often things get ugly, but if it's an agreement upfront, then it's settled. That was exactly my point of why not to buy a P.A. Your right - things do get ugly - 99.9% of the time when a band breaks up. Why be tied to one another financially when you can simplify the entire situation. My band has a sound guy who owns all of his own equipment. We pay him on a gig by gig basis. I might also add that we're not stuck at the venue until 3 in the morning either breaking down P.A. gear after a show. Sound equipment is very expensive and costs alot to maintain as well as get insurance for. A total headache IMO. Why? In the event - God forbid - something happens know one is tied to a P.A. payment or anything else. I've seen bands who did what your band did and break-up six months later with a drama on their hands. Unless of course you do something like Bluestrat did - buy & own the P.A. yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted June 7, 2002 Members Share Posted June 7, 2002 It's my band, so I own my own PA. In the 2 last years, I bought a Mackie 20 channel board, a QSC 850 power amp for monitors, a QSC 1450 for the mains, 2 JBL 15/horn speakers, plus new cables, etc. Everyone else is responsible for their own mics, cords, etc. The problem with group purchases are many, and I have done this inthe past, but never ever again. We tried and agreement where if anyone quits, they relenquish their share. But then you reach a point when you wish someone would quit, and they won't, because they're out their investment, so you end up having to kick them out and pay them off anyway. And then the new guy comes in, and he has nothing invested, but wants to be an equal partner...and on it goes. better for one guy to own the system. I've been in bands where we rent the system from the band member who owns it, like $75 a weekend or 50 for one nighters. He is responsible for maintaining it. But I don't rent my stuff to my guys, rather they work for me so I pay them what I can pay them after the bills are paid. So, if a gig pays $1000 for a night, I hold out 100 for the agent, pay 125 a guy, including myself (there's 6 of us) and put 150 into a reserve that is mine to do with what I wish, usually to cover promo, the truck payment, fuel to the next gig, etc. But no one in my band has any say in what I pay them or how much I hold out, or what I use the money for. They don't even care, because I pay them well and don't abuse the way i have it set up. I keep open books and give them a year-end statement to account for every dime, so they know they're not getting hosed. Seems to work really well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted June 7, 2002 Members Share Posted June 7, 2002 That is really good business. My problem is that when the band I was in went defunct I am stuck with all this gear I have some, the drummer has some, and the guitarist has the Power amps. We had members come and go and they never replenished any of the cash they put forth when the system was bought. The problem is now that I have had to try to divide up assets because the band never kept good books and there is a little bad blood and bound to be more because some people including myself, feel that they will not be somehow compensated for the money and time they put it. The only thing I can do is keep the Mackie SR32 mixer, anvil case and mic cords and mic's till it is all Ironed out. And I will not let it go unitl then. I was not the controller so some members borrowed money out of the Kitty fund we had. If I had my way I would E-bay it, have the remaining members pay me for the listings and than divide the money up. Bottom line it was a mess and bands do not last forever. Group purchases are not a good thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZZbottom Posted June 7, 2002 Author Members Share Posted June 7, 2002 Cheers for the reply, all as usual, pro's and con's with everything....What I would add to my original question is another (sorry!) question... What do you do when you take on (say) a new singer who can'r (won't) pay for any gear?Our last boy never even got round to buying a bloody mikestand for Christ's sake, but was the first to comment that we 'needed better cables', etc....There just doesn't seem to be a fair way.....In the meantime, can anybody direct me to a bog-standard 'inter-band' agreement that could be utilised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratKat Posted June 9, 2002 Members Share Posted June 9, 2002 Here are my personal views on the downside of funds... 1- If you leave you are out of the bucks. Most bands wont give up what you helped pay for.2- Sueing a band over a piece of equipment if the entire band breaks up is a joke. If one guy gets this and you you got that and you arnt happy what can you do?3- Ive lost thousands over the years on band funds and equipment. Someone quits, the band breaks up and i somehow get cables, old mics, and junky speaker cabs while the other guy gets the new board, light show controller, tube mic...4- Band funds seldom ever get to grow. Once they get a few big buckeroos in there someone is always cuffing the til. 9 out of 10 band funds ive been involved in were robbed by someone in the band borrowing the bucks for parties, dope, tires, credit card payments, gas, whores, and never repayed.5- Band funds have to be in a bank somwhere usually. So one person in the group becomes the controler of it. Three times in two years I got ripped off when THAT person decided to leave the bands i was in. They left and took the cash with them. What are ya gonna do? Sue them for it? Laugh.... If your group needs equipment just pitch in and buy it. If its a problem then forget it. If you cant trust your buds then it isnt going to last long enough to setup and build a fund anyways. And bands that are making small amounts of money dont need to waiste it on funds. However, in ONE group i was in we all deicided for three months to spend all excess cash on each of us for needed equipment. We bought three guitar and amps, two basses, keys, and a drum set. When its legit and everyone cares to be honest and can afford it it is a great way to get your mits on good stuff. But unfortuneately it seldom is that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kingnome Posted June 10, 2002 Members Share Posted June 10, 2002 These stories bring back some not-so-fond memories. One good point made is worth repeating----- Democracy in bands is a really bad idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members swingset Posted June 11, 2002 Members Share Posted June 11, 2002 I think all this also reinforces an idea I always had and have stuck to: If you don't trust a guy 100%, don't do band business with him. I've NEVER been burnt on band/money issues, but I'm very careful about whom I chose to invest time and money with. I am probably viewed as a hardass by some guys who I've split with because I didn't tolerate stupidity, but then, as I said, I've never lost my money, either. My current band isn't rich, but they're stand up guys - hard working, industrious and trust worthy. Rare amongst musicians! We had to split when our bassist quit, and no one was {censored}ty or nasty about anything, we just bided our time and started over again, like adults. Most people who lose money or get swindled almost always do so because they ignored the "danger signs" about the person with whom they entrusted their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scheming Demon Posted June 11, 2002 Members Share Posted June 11, 2002 Many very good points. In my current situation we have all agreed to how everything is to be divided and done up front before any money entered the picture. Including how to split royalties and who will own what. It's a written contract that we all have signed and agreed to. We do trust each other but I have seen a lot of crap happen. 3 of us in this band have been swindled in a previous band we were in. We ignored the danger signs as someone said in a previous post. Keep your eyes open as well as the books. When everyone knows what's coming in and what's being spent then it makes it easier to keep track. I keep a spreadsheet of all income and expenditures, which helps out at tax time and lets everyone see exactly where the money is going. Generally speaking, what's yours prior to joining a band is yours. What is purchased as a group becomes band property. If one member leaves, quits or is fired, he is reimbursed his percentage that he contributed. That's how it works with my band right now. The only thing the band owns as a group is a small PA. Everything else is consumables like advertising, pictures, recordings, etc. which is taken out of band funds. God I could write a book on this subject, I've had so much {censored} happen to me over the years. One piece of advice learned the hard way, question everything when it comes to money. If the "controlling" member (if there is one) says "trust me" or isn't forthcoming with the books then run like hell away from this because you will most certainly get screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZZbottom Posted June 11, 2002 Author Members Share Posted June 11, 2002 Hmmm...Interesting range of views here !Thanks to all for taking the time and trouble...Particularly interested in 'Scheming Demon's' (would you buy a used car from someone called ...., etc!) "solution".....You've obviously had problems/thought the matter through very thoroughly - could I beg a copy of your 'contract' wording to save similar pitfalls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members smokin Joe Posted June 11, 2002 Members Share Posted June 11, 2002 Originally posted by BlueStrat It's my band, so I own my own PA. In the 2 last years, I bought a Mackie 20 channel board, a QSC 850 power amp for monitors, a QSC 1450 for the mains, 2 JBL 15/horn speakers, plus new cables, etc. Everyone else is responsible for their own mics, cords, etc. The problem with group purchases are many, and I have done this inthe past, but never ever again. We tried and agreement where if anyone quits, they relenquish their share. But then you reach a point when you wish someone would quit, and they won't, because they're out their investment, so you end up having to kick them out and pay them off anyway. And then the new guy comes in, and he has nothing invested, but wants to be an equal partner...and on it goes. better for one guy to own the system. I've been in bands where we rent the system from the band member who owns it, like $75 a weekend or 50 for one nighters. He is responsible for maintaining it. But I don't rent my stuff to my guys, rather they work for me so I pay them what I can pay them after the bills are paid. So, if a gig pays $1000 for a night, I hold out 100 for the agent, pay 125 a guy, including myself (there's 6 of us) and put 150 into a reserve that is mine to do with what I wish, usually to cover promo, the truck payment, fuel to the next gig, etc. But no one in my band has any say in what I pay them or how much I hold out, or what I use the money for. They don't even care, because I pay them well and don't abuse the way i have it set up. I keep open books and give them a year-end statement to account for every dime, so they know they're not getting hosed. Seems to work really well. Dude, Nobody owns the band. I'd leave you also if you had that attitude with me. A band by definition is a group of individuals. I say everybody buys their own equipment. If you want to sing, you have to have a QUALITY mic. The lead singer has to have a PA. To record all members have to have their own mics, and stuff. When the band breaks, people take what is their's, and when you replace a member, the new guy/gal must have their own equipment. Pretty simple if You ask Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scheming Demon Posted June 11, 2002 Members Share Posted June 11, 2002 Originally posted by ZZbottom ...could I beg a copy of your 'contract' wording to save similar pitfalls? Check your email, I'd be happy to send you the wording. It's too lengthy (even for a relatively short contract) to copy into this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kingnome Posted June 11, 2002 Members Share Posted June 11, 2002 Originally posted by smokin Joe Dude, Nobody owns the band. I'd leave you also if you had that attitude with me. A band by definition is a group of individuals. I say everybody buys their own equipment. If you want to sing, you have to have a QUALITY mic. The lead singer has to have a PA. To record all members have to have their own mics, and stuff. When the band breaks, people take what is their's, and when you replace a member, the new guy/gal must have their own equipment. Pretty simple if You ask Me. It may be a band, but it's not a business. If a band is what you want, good for you, but if you're trying to run a business, this is really the only way that makes sense. You have to decide where you want to go with your band, but I'll tell you, there's a reason for the term "professional musician", and it's not just because you get paid for a gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scheming Demon Posted June 11, 2002 Members Share Posted June 11, 2002 It's certainly ideal when one member can afford to purchase certain types of equipment. It makes matters easier because there is no controversy as to who owns what if a breakup occurs. However, economics comes into play far too often. If you need to purchase even a modest PA (say for $1000) it helps to have 2, 3 or 4 other people chipping in with you. Otherwise your band may not be able to afford it. It may become a problem later on down the road unless you have made arrangements ahead of time how to deal with a breakup or leaving member. Even then someone is liable to be unhappy and cause some grief. By 1 person buying and owning something it eliminates a lot of potential problems. It's just one way of going about a band's business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scheming Demon Posted June 11, 2002 Members Share Posted June 11, 2002 Just thought of something to add. On the downside (depending on the person who owns the equipment) he can try to become a controlling influence and allow no other band members a say in anything. If you know that going into the situation or you agree to it then fine. If this person turns into this control freak then it can be very bad and will in the long run end the band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kingnome Posted June 11, 2002 Members Share Posted June 11, 2002 Originally posted by Scheming Demon ) ...he can try to become a controlling influence and allow no other band members a say in anything......If this person turns into this control freak then it can be very bad and will in the long run end the band. I understand but, all businesses have a boss. If you're the controlling type, any business will be difficult. Businesses have to borrow or save for major expenses, hire and fire employees, etc. I'd have no trouble working in a professional band situation, but going back to those days of "Now where are we going to get a bass player with a 24ch board?" --no thanks. It's really simple-Each car has only one driver. That's so everybody in the car gets to the same place. It really all depends if you are "in the car". If you're the kind of guy who wants to take his own car all the time, well, sometimes you'll all be there, and sometimes you'll get lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ZZbottom Posted June 12, 2002 Author Members Share Posted June 12, 2002 Scheming Demon......Thanks for offer.... e-mail is riffraffband@btinternet.com...Cheers to you...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted June 14, 2002 Members Share Posted June 14, 2002 Originally posted by smokin Joe Dude, Nobody owns the band. I'd leave you also if you had that attitude with me. A band by definition is a group of individuals. I say everybody buys their own equipment. If you want to sing, you have to have a QUALITY mic. The lead singer has to have a PA. To record all members have to have their own mics, and stuff. When the band breaks, people take what is their's, and when you replace a member, the new guy/gal must have their own equipment. Pretty simple if You ask Me. I beg to differ. You sound like someone who has a lot of theoretical ideas and very little real experience. I perform and record CDs under my own name, which really is all I have to sell. My band is hired by me and works for me. I provide the community gear, transportation, and road accomodations, and pay my musicians to work for me. I risk my capital, my name, and put my songs out there for people to accept or reject. Often, my guys get paid when I don't. It's called running a business. I have been in this business for 31 years and this is the only way I will do it. I have had many "equal partnership" bands in the past (which is a misnomer, since they are NEVER equal in the work distribution department) and have arrived at where I am now by experience. In every group, someone is going to emerge as the leader, or driving force, or whatever you want to call it. Sometimes there will be two or three. These kinds of bands stand a popsicle's chance in hell of surviving more than three or four years because of power struggles, fights over direction, resentments over who wins and loses, and all the other drama inherent in several creative minds all trying to steer the same ship. If you want to be in a democratically controlled boy's club, and you like starting over every couple of years, have at it. But you're right about one thing: you wouldn't last in my band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EcHoplex Posted June 14, 2002 Members Share Posted June 14, 2002 Dude, Nobody owns the band. I'd leave you also if you had that attitude with me. A band by definition is a group of individuals. I say everybody buys their own equipment. If you want to sing, you have to have a QUALITY mic. The lead singer has to have a PA. To record all members have to have their own mics, and stuff. When the band breaks, people take what is their's, and when you replace a member, the new guy/gal must have their own equipment. Pretty simple if You ask Me. Smokin Joe - There aren't many bands who operate the way your describing it to be. There is always ownership in a band...at least a successful one. For example, if the singer and guitar player write all the songs thereby supplying the bands creative direction/vision, then by all accounts they own the band. Without them, there wouldn't be any band. There would be no means to end so to speak. Songs are what give a band a navigation system...a purpose if you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BLACKWINGEDBEING Posted June 14, 2002 Members Share Posted June 14, 2002 Originally posted by smokin Joe The lead singer has to have a PA. To record all members have to have their own mics, and stuff. ... Lead singer here!If I own a PA, no one is going to plug in for any reason. If the PAis owned by the band, then the band may plug in. I wouldn't aska guitar player or a bass player if I could share their amp! Ever.So why would you expect a singer to share his? I don't know howmany times I've had a keyboard player or a drummer blow fusesin my PA because they don't bring their own amplification. If yourother comment is true: I say everybody buys their own equipmentthen why does that never include the keyboards amp? A singer shouldown a lot more than just a mic. So should a keyboard player anddrummer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grutko Posted June 14, 2002 Members Share Posted June 14, 2002 Keeping track of who pays what is extremely important. Our guitarist developed a program in Access that keeps track of all our contacts(name, ph #'s, addresses and so on) and merchandise sales. All money from gigs and sales goes into a money box. And is used to buy more merchandise and promotional material. All receipts for band related items are kept and filed. Everyone owns their own gear. We will loan each other money if someone needs to buy an exspensive item. There are certain aspects that you have to treat like a business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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