Members ryanstanley Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 this is an overview i typed out for somebody of a thread on OJ where i came up with this over a several posts it couldn't really accomplish anything as is, but it's an interesting way of looking at things i think and is worth being considered. what do you think?? ........ atheism means "not a belief in God or gods". therefore, one can be atheist, and still consider themselves a spiritual person. this presents the idea that spirituality and belief in a God are seperate. this made me realize the majority of people, regardless of individual beliefs, sense the existence of a spiritual realm whether they acknowledge it as significant or real, or not. since we all sense its presence, and in a similar way that some experience a "sixth sense" (which has, in the past, shown validity by psychic predictions come true, 'feeling someone looking at you', etc), we have enough reason to at least consider that the spiritual realm may very well be a reality the spiritual world, in light of this, has more evidence for its existence than a God or gods since the universe is basically a collection and organization of energy, it seems only natural to consider that what exists in the spiritual realm is energy as well. however since we have no evidence of such in the physical world, this must be a non-physical form of energy what could be considered as a middle ground between physical and non-physical energy is "potential energy" now, if this kind of energy exists, then we have been overlooking this form of energy in our scientific proceedings since science began.. which could very well explain why there are certain things about how the universe works, that we just can't figure out. therefore, i present the idea that if this form of energy exists, the recognition and study of it could fill in the gaps and give us an immense understanding of the world around us... opening up the doors to teleportation, time travel, and the end of religion as we know it ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz Ad Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 It looks like nonsense blabber to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryanstanley Posted December 21, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by Jazz Ad It looks like nonsense blabber to me. and it pretty much is, i think its a neat way of looking at it though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by ryanstanley and it pretty much is, i think its a neat way of looking at it though I think it all comes down to your definition of "god(s)". A spiritual realm implies the existence of spirits. If these spirits have intelligence, would they not be considered gods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Plus you've confused "evidence" with popular opinion. By your definition, we used to "evidence" the world ewas flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yools Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by ryanstanley this made me realize the majority of people, regardless of individual beliefs, sense the existence of a spiritual realm whether they acknowledge it as significant or real, or not. since we all sense its presence, and in a similar way that some experience a "sixth sense" (which has, in the past, shown validity by psychic predictions come true, 'feeling someone looking at you', etc), we have enough reason to at least consider that the spiritual realm may very well be a reality "sensing" the presence of something is not sufficent evidence - repeated experimentation and objective observations have shown that our minds are quite capable of convincing ourselves that what we want to believe is true - "having a feeling" about something is simply a by-product of the way our minds work, not a reaction to an objective reality. Also, despite what some would claim, there have been NO legitimate studies, experiments, observations etc that demonstrate any sort of psychic or paranormal phenomenon - any predictions can be attributed to chance (because people forget the ones that didn't come true), "talking to the dead" ala John Edwards/Sylvia Brown is a cheap parlor trick that anyone can do with a little practice, and any allegedly "psychic" phenomena that have been observed can easily be explained through completely natural processes and human psychology. Therefore, there really is no reason to consider that a spiritual realm may be a reality, and you ideas about spirituality representing some other form of potential energy are pretty much meaningless. Not to hijack the thread, but what people really need to realize is how poorly our minds actually work - we DON'T have good memories (despite how convinced one may be about what they remember), and we are all capable of convincing ourselves that anything is real or possible. Lately this has been demonstrated in the courts repeatedly - solid eyewitness testimonies have been soundly overturned by DNA or other foresic evidence, even when the testifying people were CONVINCED that they saw the person do it, etc. Unfortunately, a great many people are certain that what they feel and believe are real, when much of that is simply a product of their own minds. -Yools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassplayer7770 Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by Yools repeated experimentation and objective observations have shown that our minds are quite capable of convincing ourselves that what we want to believe is true Belief-induced analgesia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fireball_73 Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 So basically Aetheisim is like Anti-gravity in an 11 Dimensional universe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryanstanley Posted December 21, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by lug Plus you've confused "evidence" with popular opinion. By your definition, we used to "evidence" the world ewas flat. well, this is all speculation anyway. we can't prove the existence of the spiritual unless somehow this theory leads to some kind of evidence, which is unlikely... that statement was more just to tell you why i was thinking about it but it does go beyond popular opinion like i said, we all experience a spiritual connection. some choose to pass it off as dilusion, or a "construct of the human psyche," but just about everyone has had spiritual feelings at some point or another and while that in no way proves anything, it still is at least supportive of the idea that there is a spiritual realm, which is at least something. more than we have to support the existence of a God. the difference is that only those who believe in God claim to experience him, while even those who DONT believe in the spiritual, experience it in one way or another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yools Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 There is one thing I do believe, and no amount of physical evidence will change it.... lug has the coolest avatar of all time. -Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryanstanley Posted December 21, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by Yools *snip* well it's not that simple, though it'd be different if just one group of people had "sensed" it, because it could've just been one persons crazy idea and it spread. but every group of people, every subset of human culture, in every time period, has created some sort o spiritual belief system completely independantly of one another granted, this could be just the natural of instinct of man, to come up with something abstract in the face of a challenging concept.. but maybe not. maybe not. and i think that since if it IS true, such as discovery would advance the human race incomprehensibly, it's worth looking into Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by Yools There is one thing I do believe, and no amount of physical evidence will change it....lug has the coolest avatar of all time.-Y ........Designed by DRF Industries Inc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yools Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by ryanstanley well it's not that simple, though it'd be different if just one group of people had "sensed" it, because it could've just been one persons crazy idea and it spread. but every group of people, every subset of human culture, in every time period, has created some sort o spiritual belief system completely independantly of one another granted, this could be just the natural of instinct of man, to come up with something abstract in the face of a challenging concept.. but maybe not. maybe not. and i think that since if it IS true, such as discovery would advance the human race incomprehensibly, it's worth looking into I think the fact that every subset of human culture developed a spiritual belief system is better explained as a genetic tendency to do so rather than evidence for something external driving those belief systems. This idea has been explored by evolutionary biologists and others (see Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon for an example). Personally a problem I have with the idea of every culture developing belief systems is how widely divergent those belief systems are - not when one is derived from another (like the line of the Babylonian religions --> Judaism --> Christianity --> Islam) but when we compare the Judeo/Xtian/Islam religions to Hindu for example, or to the indigenous American populations, we see as many differences as we see similarities. I would expect to see individual groups approaching some similar interpretation of this spritual realm, not developing their own independent ones (like the way languages developed). Of course, I'll acknowledge that that is a subjective interpretation, but it is a simpler explanation, so to me it deserves merit. The one question I have is how do we "look into" it in an objective scientific way? Just talking about it in a phisophical sense really doesn't do any good, and I don't see how we can collect objective data to test or verify this concept. Until someone suggests a way to do that, then there really is no utility in thinking about it. Of course, I'm assuming that you're responding to my first post. If instead you're questioning whether or not lug has the coolest avatar, then we clearly have a problem -Yools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryanstanley Posted December 21, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by Yools I think the fact that every subset of human culture developed a spiritual belief system is better explained as a genetic tendency to do so rather than evidence for something external driving those belief systems. This idea has been explored by evolutionary biologists and others (see Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon for an example). Personally a problem I have with the idea of every culture developing belief systems is how widely divergent those belief systems are - not when one is derived from another (like the line of the Babylonian religions --> Judaism --> Christianity --> Islam) but when we compare the Judeo/Xtian/Islam religions to Hindu for example, or to the indigenous American populations, we see as many differences as we see similarities. I would expect to see individual groups approaching some similar interpretation of this spritual realm, not developing their own independent ones (like the way languages developed). Of course, I'll acknowledge that that is a subjective interpretation, but it is a simpler explanation, so to me it deserves merit. The one question I have is how do we "look into" it in an objective scientific way? Just talking about it in a phisophical sense really doesn't do any good, and I don't see how we can collect objective data to test or verify this concept. Until someone suggests a way to do that, then there really is no utility in thinking about it. Of course, I'm assuming that you're responding to my first post. If instead you're questioning whether or not lug has the coolest avatar, then we clearly have a problem -Yools but all of those religions were formed based on the same observations, of non-physical experiences or processes maybe the different cultures were simply trying to explain their experiences with this common spiritual realm, and couldn't... so they came up with the idea of religion and gods the universe is 90% dark matter, that we can't detect other than from it's gravitational effect on its surroundings. doesn't it seem probable, or even likely that there is also types of "dark energy," that we aren't capable of detecting yet? and who's to say that that isn't the direct cause our spiritual experiences? seems to make a lot of sense to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryanstanley Posted December 21, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 and you're definitely right about the one thing-- that as of now this cant go any further than philosophical discussion and that blows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 I believe the very nature of spirituality goes against the ability to ever find a way to prove its existence. Any type of spirituality requires a faith in that spiritualities existence. Once something is proven, faith becomes unnecessary as does the spirituality along with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryanstanley Posted December 21, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 really, in order to test and verify the existence of any kind of non-physical energy, we'd have to get a better understanding of potential energy... because that's getting damn close i think if we really reflect on how potential energy works and really try to go beyond that, we might find what we're looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryanstanley Posted December 21, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by collinwho I believe the very nature of spirituality goes against the ability to ever find a way to prove its existence. Any type of spirituality requires a faith in that spiritualities existence. Once something is proven, faith becomes unnecessary as does the spirituality along with it. well the main problem is that spirituality is so hard to define i'm using the term "spirituality" to refer to any experience, existence, or process that we don't understand or can't define. essentially and until we discover it, and ultimately completely nullify that definition, that definition will have to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AntiStuff Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by Fireball_73 So basically Aetheisim is like Anti-gravity in an 11 Dimensional universe? You know if the tachyon does exist... and it does have negative mass, then I don't see why it wouldn't exibit anit-gravity.... Calabi-Yau space in the house! Maybe once they finish that accelerator at CERN we'll find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Emprov Posted December 21, 2006 Members Share Posted December 21, 2006 Originally posted by AntiStuff Maybe once they finish that accelerator at CERN we'll find out. Cool, you're gonna need a really fast plane to get there though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DevilRaysFan Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by lug ........Designed by DRF Industries Inc. In accordance with the guidelines set down by the Church Of The SuckGenius It is better to suck than to slack :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llllllllllllllllllllllll Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by ryanstanley really, in order to test and verify the existence of any kind of non-physical energy, we'd have to get a better understanding of potential energy... because that's getting damn closei think if we really reflect on how potential energy works and really try to go beyond that, we might find what we're looking for What the {censored} are you talking about? Are you high? Is this not a forum about bass guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by llllllllllllllllllllllll What the {censored} are you talking about? Are you high? Is this not a forum about bass guitar? In no particular order, the answers to these questions are: Yes.No.Hell if I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ryanstanley Posted December 22, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by llllllllllllllllllllllll What the {censored} are you talking about? Are you high? Is this not a forum about bass guitar? 1. nothing, actually 2. maybe 3. who ever told you that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llllllllllllllllllllllll Posted December 22, 2006 Members Share Posted December 22, 2006 Originally posted by ryanstanley 1. nothing, actually 2. maybe 3. who ever told you that? Seriously, save this stuff for your live journal. I don't know if you're still ate up with your idea, or if you've even bothered to do any half-assed researched about physics with wikipedia or anything, but this is one of the worst OT posts I've ever seen. What happens in OJ should stay in OJ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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