Members willbill0587 Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 My question about this is that we spend lots of money on gear to get our own sound and that is great on some gigs where you only have a backline and no FOH. The tone you have spent so much money to get is being projected into the audience as well. But when you play a pretty big venue, they will most likely have you go through the PA and 9 times out of 10 they will either DI your bass, or use the DI on your amp.This way, 'your' sound is only being heard by you, and you just have to trust the sound guy to give you a good tone. I personally hate this.My band does gigs that has both of the above, some with FOH, some without.I have asked loads of sound guys why they can't mic up my cab so my sound is going through the PA and they say that it is too complicated of something like that.I want to know if there is any way of making sure that the sound that goes through the DI is the sound you want?I don't have much experience with putting bass into the PA and the effects of micing on a stage etc.Any info on this would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 If you have a post eq di on your amp, the di tone will start with something similar to your stage tone. If your cab is mic'ed the mic will change your tone some as well. After it gets to the board, it may well be eq'ed as the soundguy see's fit anyway. Are you using power amp distortion? If not, the post eq di will get you close, except for the differences in freq. response between your cab and the mains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RSBro Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 Honestly? Pay off the soundman, or make sure he's part of your crew/bring and hire your own. Only sure-fire way, and even then you may not be hear 100% of the time, but if they're on payroll, they have an "incentive" to make sure everyone gets heard. Otherwise, it's tough goings. But this is a mega-thread discussion that's been done many many times, and the simple fact is that you're at the right conclusion- you may have a $5k rig and $2k axe that doesn't even make it through the drums and guitars and screaming vox w/ everything about the high-mids maxed out on the soundboard. However, I think some/most soundmen don't like to mic b/c it takes a little effort to get right, and if you're just another act on the bill, they may not care and "Hey just plug into this little box right here" whereas your might Ampeg or Mesa rig is now just used as a monitor, and you get the click clack from your bass only to the FOH. Although on most festivals/tours, I see lots of cabs mic'd up and stuff, as prolly the same soundcrew travels with the tours, like Ozzest, Family Values, Warped, etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 My question about this is that we spend lots of money on gear to get our own sound and that is great on some gigs where you only have a backline and no FOH. The tone you have spent so much money to get is being projected into the audience as well.But when you play a pretty big venue, they will most likely have you go through the PA and 9 times out of 10 they will either DI your bass, or use the DI on your amp.This way, 'your' sound is only being heard by you, and you just have to trust the sound guy to give you a good tone. I personally hate this.My band does gigs that has both of the above, some with FOH, some without.I have asked loads of sound guys why they can't mic up my cab so my sound is going through the PA and they say that it is too complicated of something like that.I want to know if there is any way of making sure that the sound that goes through the DI is the sound you want?I don't have much experience with putting bass into the PA and the effects of micing on a stage etc.Any info on this would be great. Bring your own DI? Something like a SansAmp. Remember that your amazing tone on stage isn't what the audience is hearing because you're in a different venue. What works in a small bar with the sound reflecting from walls and ceilings and booths won't sound the same in an arena -- it'll sound like one big boomy bassy noise. The soundman's job is to take your bass tone and fit it appropriately in the mix. While it's not their job to get your "sound" through the PA, any soundman worth anything will do his best to do just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bnyswonger Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 Here's the truth - once you get into really big venues, you can pretty much kiss "your sound" goodbye. The exception would be guys like Chris Squire who have a sound that is so integral to the band that they have the gear and support personel to make it happen. When you get into big systems, you'll always have bottom - likely more than you want. If you can get a little definition, that's great. The best thing you can do is make it as simple as possible for a strange FOH guy to deal with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jackcheez Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 I have asked loads of sound guys why they can't mic up my cab so my sound is going through the PA and they say that it is too complicated of something like that. From a bassist who owns a recording studio, this is closer to the truth than you think. To really nail somebody's sound takes some time. You have to pick the right mic. It's not always the first one you reach for. Then positioning is critical. Move it here and listen, move it there and listen...a small move can make a big difference. Even if you DO nail it, it's no longer coming out of your amp, it's coming out of a completely different amp/speaker configuration, so how is it going to sound exactly the same anyhow ? Then, say a mic is set up, it will pick up your clomping around on stage, then get kicked (which moves it and changes the sound) sometimes...In the end, the work/reward ratio just doesn't justify micing the bass for most "house" FOH guys. Most of 'em just want a level. If you have your own guy and time to spend on sound check, then there's hope. I don't worry much about this live anyways because my sound comes mostly from my guitar and how I play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members catphish Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 My tone is my bass. My amp is a monitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Joey Joe Joe Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members T. Alan Smith Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 The best thing you can do is make it as simple as possible for a strange FOH guy to deal with you. Amen!In a live setting, "your sound" should simply sit in the mix well. ALL instruments should compliment one another in the mix. The character part of your sound comes from your touch anyway...and that's +50.0001% of your whole sound. My rig is for stage volume for me and my bandmates. Hopefully, my sound helps spur inspiration for both me and my bandmates as well. That's what the audience is looking for anyway- an inspired performance. The hot chick at the back of the dance floor isn't going to comment on how nice your upper mids cut. She might comment on how "into it" you were or intense you were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members burdizzos Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 Tinker around with a good DI to get a pleasing sound. Then give that signal to the sound guy. As others have said, it is a pain in the ass to mic a bass cab and what sounds good on stage doesn't necessarily translate to a good FOH sound. I own my band's PA and I go Bass --> DI --> Board. Also, it always helps to kiss the sound guy's ass or slip him a few bucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RSBro Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 My tone is my bass. My amp is a monitor. This is why I'm in the "bass first, rig second" camp now. If ya gotta go only DI, pre FX or pre everything, make sure your source is clean and sounds good on it's own. I'd be more than happy just hearing my Dolphin or a Q5 back in my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members burdizzos Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 This is why I'm in the "bass first, rig second" camp now.If ya gotta go only DI, pre FX or pre everything, make sure your source is clean and sounds good on it's own.I'd be more than happy just hearing my Dolphin or a Q5 back in my ears. Yep. My bas sounds the same every night and at every venue. A quality bass on the front end always yields good results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted January 29, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 29, 2008 A quality bass on the front end always yields good results. I agree completely with all of these guys. I'd add to burdizzos that a quality bass and quality bassist on the front end always yields good results, but I think he implied that in what he wrote. IME - it is 50/50 on whether the soundguy wants to blend a DI and mic or just DI. I prefer straight DI (I use two or three way cabinets and a close mic is essentially worthless), but know that I have a good soundguy when after I express my preference he says "I'm just putting the mic here in case something goes wrong. It's easier to fade in the mic signal than try to troubleshoot your DI signal if there is a problem." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz Ad Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 Same here.Amps are for you to hear to they'd better sound good.Don't expect to control FOH with them. The needs and means are completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 Here's the truth - once you get into really big venues, you can pretty much kiss "your sound" goodbye. The exception would be guys like Chris Squire who have a sound that is so integral to the band that they have the gear and support personel to make it happen. When you get into big systems, you'll always have bottom - likely more than you want. If you can get a little definition, that's great. The best thing you can do is make it as simple as possible for a strange FOH guy to deal with you. Yup - IMO, to get good, consistant FOH sound day in and day out at different venues, your best bet is to play a good sounding bass into a good quality DI, and give that signal to the board... I don't use any effects, nor overdrive - so my approach isn't for everyone - although an option for those situations is a quality DI box that'll handle speaker level signals... - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted January 29, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 29, 2008 I don't use any effects, nor overdrive - so my approach isn't for everyone If you use effects, you just place the DI after the effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RSBro Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 If you use effects, you just place the DI after the effects. +1. Never had complaints about that. They're usually pretty psyched to see a bass player w/ shiny boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 I agree completely with all of these guys. I'd add to burdizzos that a quality bass and quality bassist on the front end always yields good results, but I think he implied that in what he wrote.IME - it is 50/50 on whether the soundguy wants to blend a DI and mic or just DI. I prefer straight DI (I use two or three way cabinets and a close mic is essentially worthless), but know that I have a good soundguy when after I express my preference he says "I'm just putting the mic here in case something goes wrong. It's easier to fade in the mic signal than try to troubleshoot your DI signal if there is a problem." +1 on all counts... - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thunderbroom Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 Great thread. While I'm pretty new to gigging, I've had the opportunity to play backyards, small clubs, large clubs, neighborhood parties, and many, many outdoor venues. I trust the soundguy to make me sound good and always chat him up during setup to let him know what I'm after but resist being a tone nazi. On gigs where we provide our own PA, we hire a soundguy we trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mytola Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 I just use this. If there happens to be a amp on stage, I use it if I can, but only for monitoring purposes. If not, I just use the monitors on the PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 2tall Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 My tone is my bass. My amp is a monitor. +1 I use a smallish rig with moderate volume on stage.The sound from our PA is mostly what folks hear. Because my IEM isolate me from the FOH, I really never know what I sound like. But I assume the tone in my ears is close to FOH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bnyswonger Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 To elaborate a little - in two of the bands I play with I use two amps - one is essentially a guitar amp that carries more effects....so I ask a little more from the FOH guy. I run a DI off the send to the low amp and ask him to mic the guitar amp...and say specifically to get the lows from the DI and shelf everything below 250 hz or so off of the mic. If you understand what comprises the sound you're looking to project and can explain in terms an audio guy can understand, 9 times out of 10 they'll do their best to make it work the way you want it to. Two things are key here - you have to quickly size up the room, the system, and the situation (how many bands and how flustered the tech crew is and what the level of competency is) - and you always ask nicely and don't come off like a demanding pompous ass. I'm always prepared to just play through a DI (or nothing at all if it's a small vocal system) and be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 If you use effects, you just place the DI after the effects. Or between the amp and speakers... - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RSBro Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 Or between the amp and speakers... - georgestrings Ha, I wonder what a soundguy would do if you attempted that! Miking is one thing, but that's just askin' for trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted January 29, 2008 Members Share Posted January 29, 2008 Ha, I wonder what a soundguy would do if you attempted that! Miking is one thing, but that's just askin' for trouble. Not at all, bro - the JDI MK3 is made to be able to do such a thing, and so are a few other DI boxes... The JDI MK3 has two pad switches for just a use, and one's called "speaker" - which also engages a circuit that cuts some highs and lows - I used mine that way this past weekend, and it actually worked quite well... It gave me a very useable signal to the board - and since I was running our sound, as long as my stage volume fit well in the mix, it also did at the FOH... The reason for trying this approach is that my passives actually have a much hotter output than my active 5ers - so I balanced that out at the Pre on the amp - and by DI'ing a speaker level signal, things stayed the same at the FOH... All I know is, that after a quick soundcheck, I barely had to touch the board again, and we got alot of compliments on our sound... - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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