Members Emprov Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 I guess I should have prefaced this argument with "minimum gig worthy requirements".I.E., the least amount of gear you would need to sound decent, be heard, and play a show.This also assumed that you would have at least twice the wattage of a guitarist, and comparable tone. These guys are prog tone freaks so they'd say that what they spent is the minimum. Here's the guitarist (and no, that's not me or the drummer). The rig that he's playing through cost around $20k, give or take a few pennies, not including the guitar. Personally, I don't get it. [YOUTUBE]La-zfuIK18M[/YOUTUBE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted May 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2008 Yeah but we're only talkin' 15 watts! And if you need to be deafening, a Twin Reverb is $1300. That's amp and cab. Can't do that quality and quantity for bass for that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted May 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2008 I can get a used Peavey Classic 30 (the most underrated guitar amp in the world IMO) for about $200-250. Exactly. The amp comparison is very lopsided in favor of guitarists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassthumpintwin Posted May 9, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 Try to find a good sounding, gigable 1x12 tube guitar combo and you will almost always be able to put a gigable bass rig together for less, not even counting the effects and instruments. The HCBF budget rig, in whatever form that's taking these days, is always a good example. Gigable AND equally good sounding? that will stand up to the guitarists wattage? Okay, lets take the Fenfer hot rod deluxe for example then. 40W tube guitar amp. 1 12'' speaker IIRC. My brother has had one for years. 700 brand new. Tone is just as good as you would ever need, and it cranks louder than anything you would ever need. For all intents and purposes, it is a good, professional quality amp. Granted, you could find a good guitard amp for much less than that, but lets just use that as an example of going "above and beyond". Now, what is a good quality bass rig that's equally "above and beyond", and would be able to even remotely stand up that that tube amp cranked up to a high volume? Oh, and it has to cost less than 700 brand new. I'm thinking you'll need a minimum of 200 watts, though that might be a little generous. instruments are negligible, as you can find decent gig worthy guitars OR basses for about the same price these days. Lets limit to amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L-1329 Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 And if you need to be deafening, a Twin Reverb is $1300. That's amp and cab. Can't do that quality and quantity for bass for that price.No, I mean I would only want 15 watts. I have no use at all for 50+ watt guitar heads. But a nice little 15 watter into the 212 might work out perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L-1329 Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 Gigable AND equally good sounding? that will stand up to the guitarists wattage? A guitarists wattage no longer matters to me, since I will not play in another band where they can't listen and control their sound levels. That's a different topic though, but if I show up to a band and the guitards roll in huge heads and big cabs, I roll right out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted May 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2008 No, I mean I would only want 15 watts. I have no use at all for 50+ watt guitar heads. But a nice little 15 watter into the 212 might work out perfectly. The narrow panel Deluxe is only 15 watts. It's what I have and all of my guitarists fight over. 15 watts into a 1x12. If you want a 2x12, it could be arranged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 Guitar gear trumps bass gear for cost. Easily. +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L-1329 Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 The narrow panel Deluxe is only 15 watts. It's what I have and all of my guitarists fight over. 15 watts into a 1x12. If you want a 2x12, it could be arranged. One of these days I'm going to bug you again for a 15 watt head. I'm still liking the idea of the Bassman circuit with lower power... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted May 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2008 One of these days I'm going to bug you again for a 15 watt head. I'm still liking the idea of the Bassman circuit with lower power... First in line is James Hart's high powered tweed twin.Now that you have some troubleshooting and soldering skills, maybe you'll want to take a shot at building your own. Under supervised conditions of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 IME I wholeheartedly disagree. Instrument costs are basically the same. Amp costs are in the favor of guitarists. ? Disagree, strongly. Bassists can get a more than decent tone with a good pre/poweramp setup. Guitar-oriented music, where tone is a concern: now you're talking old JTM 45's, super leads, maybe an old 60's Bassman. Or a boutique hand-wired class a single ended tube amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rowka Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 shoot, a good bass sax could set you back 20 grand or more! Even a crappy one runs $7-$10 k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L-1329 Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 First in line is James Hart's high powered tweed twin. Now that you have some troubleshooting and soldering skills, maybe you'll want to take a shot at building your own. Under supervised conditions of course. Hmm, might be a fun challenge... Oh, and you're never going to open up the control cavity on this bass to see exactly how laughable my mad soldering skilz are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 ?Disagree, strongly.Bassists can get a more than decent tone with a good pre/poweramp setup.Guitar-oriented music, where tone is a concern: now you're talking old JTM 45's, super leads, maybe an old 60's Bassman. Or a boutique hand-wired class a single ended tube amp. Or, as has been noted already in this thread, a guitarist can get a more than decent tone with one of many mid to low end (as defined by cost alone) tube amps currently being offered. And they will paying much less than a bassists will on a good pre/poweramp setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted May 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2008 ? Disagree, strongly. Bassists can get a more than decent tone with a good pre/poweramp setup. Guitar-oriented music, where tone is a concern: now you're talking old JTM 45's, super leads, maybe an old 60's Bassman. Or a boutique hand-wired class a single ended tube amp. Bassists can get by with Taco Bell, but guitarists need lobster tail? I know that isn't what you are saying, but I'm over exaggerating to make a point. I'll look up some prices and see if I have a good example. When you level the quality, guitar equipment is cheaper. The amplification demands are easier met, both on the amp side and the cabinet side. If your tastes are more discriminating for bass amps or guitar amps, it is natural to skew the conclusions, but that's simply not being objective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 Or, as has been noted already in this thread, a guitarist can get a more than decent tone with one of many mid to low end (as defined by cost alone) tube amps currently being offered. And they will paying much less than a bassists will on a good pre/poweramp setup. Yeah, but that's easy for a bassist to say that the tone would be "good enough". Guitarists just hear more and expect more - there's sag, compression, power tube crunch, a lot of things going on in a mid-range intensive guitar tone that just aren't so important in the bass realm. My fav guitar tone is JTM45 - and the only way to get that tone, is with a JTM45. Then again, in the interest of fairness, I suppose bassists can draw the same hard line on their tone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted May 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2008 Genz Benz Black Pearl 1X12 Combo Amp - $1,399 (specs below since we are mostly bass players here) * Class A, EL 84 power tubes * All-tube signal path * Flexible power selections-pentode/triode selector - 30 watts/15 watts/8 watts * Tube boost preamp stage * (footswitchable) * Passive 3-band eq * Five-position voicing circuitry Tube-driven reverb * Tube rectifier * Accutronics long pan reverb * 12" Alnico Red Fang speakers by Eminence * Solid 13-ply Baltic birch plywood cabinet * Classic styling Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 $699 + Genz Benz NEOX-212T $829 = $1528 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted May 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2008 Then again, in the interest of fairness, I suppose bassists can draw the same hard line on their tone? Yes. Exactly my point. If you are going to require the best in guitar amps, it is only fair to compare the equivalent in bass amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members REMUS Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 Genz Benz Black Pearl 1X12 Combo Amp - $1,399 (specs below since we are mostly bass players here) * Class A, EL 84 power tubes * All-tube signal path * Flexible power selections-pentode/triode selector - 30 watts/15 watts/8 watts * Tube boost preamp stage * (footswitchable) * Passive 3-band eq * Five-position voicing circuitry Tube-driven reverb * Tube rectifier * Accutronics long pan reverb * 12" Alnico Red Fang speakers by Eminence * Solid 13-ply Baltic birch plywood cabinet * Classic stylingGenz Benz Shuttle 6.0 $699 + Genz Benz NEOX-212T $829 = $1528 Wouldn't it be a more fair comparison with a 1x12 GB Neo, or wouldn't that be able to keep up with the pearl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted May 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2008 Wouldn't it be a more fair comparison with a 1x12 GB Neo, or wouldn't that be able to keep up with the pearl? A 1x12 bass cab isn't going to keep up in all the situations a 1x12 guitar cab can. My comparison is pretty haphazard and easy to poke at, but I'm pretty confident with my basic premise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members collinwho Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 Yeah, but that's easy for a bassist to say that the tone would be "good enough". Guitarists just hear more and expect more - there's sag, compression, power tube crunch, a lot of things going on in a mid-range intensive guitar tone that just aren't so important in the bass realm. That isn't a bassist saying the tone would be "good enough". That is a musician saying that the tone is (or at least can be) great. I've played guitar just as long as I've played bass (start both within months of each other) and have gigged extensively with a Classic 30. I know what it is capable of, most people don't, that is why its underrated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L-1329 Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 Genz Benz Black Pearl 1X12 Combo Amp - $1,399 (specs below since we are mostly bass players here) * Class A, EL 84 power tubes * All-tube signal path * Flexible power selections-pentode/triode selector - 30 watts/15 watts/8 watts * Tube boost preamp stage * (footswitchable) * Passive 3-band eq * Five-position voicing circuitry Tube-driven reverb * Tube rectifier * Accutronics long pan reverb * 12" Alnico Red Fang speakers by Eminence * Solid 13-ply Baltic birch plywood cabinet * Classic styling Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0 $699 + Genz Benz NEOX-212T $829 = $1528 Gigable and quality sound, doesn't have to be from the same manufacturer. I could put this new rig together and sound great, and keep up fine:Peavey Tour 700 head- $560Avatar 212 Neo- $339Total- $899, and more than an equal comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 Gigable and quality sound, doesn't have to be from the same manufacturer. I could put this new rig together and sound great, and keep up fine:Peavey Tour 700 head- $560Avatar 212 Neo- $339Total- $899, and more than an equal comparison. Exactly. But you try and get Eric Johnson or Robert Cray quality tone out of anything but the boutique and vintage gear that they use - won't happen for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted May 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 9, 2008 Gigable and quality sound, doesn't have to be from the same manufacturer. I could put this new rig together and sound great, and keep up fine: Peavey Tour 700 head- $560 Avatar 212 Neo- $339 Total- $899, and more than an equal comparison. As are this, this and this. All under $700. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted May 9, 2008 Members Share Posted May 9, 2008 That isn't a bassist saying the tone would be "good enough". That is a musician saying that the tone is (or at least can be) great. I've played guitar just as long as I've played bass (start both within months of each other) and have gigged extensively with a Classic 30. I know what it is capable of, most people don't, that is why its underrated It's a decent enough class A/B rock amp. Won't work for tone gurus seeking single ended class A tone though, not by a long shot - I mean, not even in the BALLPARK with a JTM45. I can put together a SS bass rig that would fool many into thinking it was an Ampeg SVT. You ain't gonna put together a git rig that sounds like a JTM45 unless you get a JTM45. Last I heard, the Divided By 13 amp is a favorite in studios - they ain't cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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