Members oldivor Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 *flashes page 6* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted December 27, 2009 Moderators Share Posted December 27, 2009 One thing that doesn't get enough discussion is ways to move the medical cost structure away from pay for services to some other model. The real issues is people don't pay for their healthcare. That's the only change that needs to happen to solve the issues, including defensive medicine. If I'm not paying for it, I want you to do every god damn thing you can think of to do, regardless of cost/benefit. When I foot the bill I want very targeted high-value service. The insurance model is the inefficiency. There are tort reform plans that address this specific value. The problen is no one wants to point the finger at the customers and say "you are the problem." But they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members s4001 Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 The real issues is people don't pay for their healthcare. That's the only change that needs to happen to solve the issues, including defensive medicine. If I'm not paying for it, I want you to do every god damn thing you can think of to do, regardless of cost/benefit. When I foot the bill I want very targeted high-value service. The insurance model is the inefficiency. There are tort reform plans that address this specific value. The problen is no one wants to point the finger at the customers and say "you are the problem." But they are. Yep'per. If everyone carried only catastrophic and shopped around for everything else - things would clean up quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oddsock Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 Yep'per. If everyone carried only catastrophic and shopped around for everything else - things would clean up quick. Well, that sounds like a universal mandate for a baseline level of care. Single payer or not. Now you just have to figure out what is catastrophic, and how to get people to pay out of pocket for things that lead to catastrophic. Lots of people simply don't take care of themselves, and will not pay to see a doctor unless there is no choice. Stupid thing to do, but people do it. Was it the Swiss (Swedish?) plan that did something similar? Price fixed and mandated a baseline level plan, and let people shop around for anything more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 Bottom line, dude... I voted for Obama because I didn't want 4 more years of Bush politics. Oh, and btw - that'd be one heckuva trick for McCain to pull off, with Pelosi and Reid having a death grip on the Congress - you probably never considered that, though... - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oddsock Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 Also, I would guess that the same force that Kindness hopes would drive people toward targeted high value services is what makes people skip health care of any kind until they have no choice. People are cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J. Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 The real issues is people don't pay for their healthcare. That's the only change that needs to happen to solve the issues, including defensive medicine. If I'm not paying for it, I want you to do every god damn thing you can think of to do, regardless of cost/benefit. When I foot the bill I want very targeted high-value service. The insurance model is the inefficiency. There are tort reform plans that address this specific value. The problen is no one wants to point the finger at the customers and say "you are the problem." But they are. That would require transforming health insurance to real insurance, not some third party payer system. Basically everyone gets a high deductible "major medical" plan. All routine stuff is payed out of pocket, bringing market forces back into medicine. Right now people are only concerned about their copays, not the actual charges rung up by the provider. Gov't could help by allowing people to purchase plans across state lines, allowing individuals to deduct premiums, as well as expanding health savings accounts and making them truly portable. The HSA's we have now are plagued with problems. I have one, but if you don't use all the money you set aside in a year, the company that administers it gets to keep it. There are problems with that plan of course, but it would definitely bring down costs and increase efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Johnny_Crab Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 Assorted hopeless sheeple are bleating that this legislation is a 'good start', but that stuff like the insurance company give-aways are 'flaws that can be addressed later'. Uh huh. Now that we're accelerating down the slope, I wonder which industry will follow the insurance cartel lead next? Real estate- you are mandated to purchase a new house every 10 years. Failure to do so will result in garnished wages corresponding to an income-indexed mortgage payment. (Capped above 95th percentile, of course.) Entertainment- you are mandated to purchase $10000/year of RIAA endorsed products. Mandate will be included in your federal income tax withholding. Money withheld will be reimbursed upon submission of receipts for each financial year. People under 200% of poverty level will be given a $2000 entertainment subsidy. Automotive- you are mandated to lease a car. After all, it's in your interest to have a trouble-free, low-maintenance transportation option at all times, and what better way to do it than leasing??? Own a car already? Sorry, it's too old and unreliable. Pay up. Software/computers- older computers are a security risk, since the older versions of software they run are no longer 'supported' and have vulnerabilities. Clearly, everyone must purchase a new computer every 20 months. Clearly, everyone must also purchase a core set of 'safe' software. We're going to amp up the Microsoft Tax and make it equal opportunity for every large software and hardware supplier out there! No fines for this one- ISPs will simply be required to refuse connections to any machines older than 20 months, and software compatibility to versions more than 20 months old will be made illegal. Finance- You'll be forced by gov't and private employers to place ~5-10% of your gross income in a 'retirement account' that will be managed for you by a large investment bank for a fee. Oh, wait... AND, as usual, CONgress will exempt themselves from all of this.http://market-ticker.org/archives/1792-The-True-Intent-of-Health-Reform.htmlA few pages back commented about "not going to collapse". You may want to examine the entire system. In the latter part of 2007, continuing into 2008, credit outstanding in the broad economy began to contract. This has not happened before - indeed, it had not happened on a broad basis since The Depression.http://market-ticker.org/archives/1787-A-Short-Treatise-On-The-USeless-Economy.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zachoff Posted December 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 Getting "alot from the BBC and The Guardian" explains the positions you so often take - although why anyone would want to gather info on THEIR country from foreign liberal news outlets is beyond me - other than the possibility that they're being fed what they want to hear that way... Also, I haven't provided "constant support" of Palin - merely pointed out how unfairly she was treated by the media, and how rediculous the hate for her that people like you spew on a regular basis is... - georgestrings Yeah, who'd ever want to get an outside perspective on anything. Nobody ever goes to counseling, hires consultants, gets lawyers. Constant defense may be a better phrase than constant support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J. Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 Johnny Crab makes a good point. This is the first time the federal government will mandate you buy a product in order to remain a law-abiding citizen. Again, patently unconstitutional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 I don't have insurance. If I get sick and have to go to my doctor, it costs me $60. I can afford that if I'm being honest about the value of my health. When I had insurance, it cost me $30, but that pissed me off, because my insurance that I rarely utilized was costing me $100+ a month. Then they'd send me a statement of payment, and I'd see that the doctor billed my insurance company $190 for the same services that I now pay $60 to get. In 2008, I paid something like $2000 for insurance and I used it one time. In 2009, I've paid $0 for insurance and I've been to the doctor once for a grand total of $80- $60 to see my doc and get a strep test, $20 for a prescription. The only reason I wish I had some coverage is that I have a shoulder that loves to put me in the ER, and I play with fire, sharp objects, heavy blunt things, and guns. The solution is so simple, it doesn't need 2000 pages and a trillion {censored}ing dollars. This is so obviously a rip-off power grab, it makes me sick. C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 Yeah, who'd ever want to get an outside perspective on anything. Nobody ever goes to counseling, hires consultants, gets lawyers. Constant defense may be a better phrase than constant support. Sure, because people outside of our country always know what's going on here better than those that actually are here, right??? In this particular case, you were totally unaware of Obama care - yet, you're still defending your info sources??? - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 Johnny Crab makes a good point. This is the first time the federal government will mandate you buy a product in order to remain a law-abiding citizen. Again, patently unconstitutional. I guess if you don't purchase the product and they send you to prison, you'd get coverage for free.But you know they wouldn't send you to prison. They'd put you on intense probation, which you have to pay for...barack obama is a {censored}ing worthless piece of {censored} cocksucker for allowing this to happen when he knows it's bad for the country. Any president that cared about his country would have stopped Congress from force-{censored}ing ANY piece of legislation this size though as fast as possible, using the total bull{censored} tactics that the dems have used. Everything about this situation is totally disgraceful and the piece of {censored} obama deserves to be thrown the {censored} out of office for supporting it.C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Westsailor Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 I live in Guatemala A couple years ago I had major abdominal surgery here... two surgeons. anesthesiologist, etc., a week in the private hospital, visited EVERY DAY by both the referring doctor and the surgeons, excellent pre & post operative care. I'd stack my dr/surgeons skills against any Dr I've been to in the states. Better, in fact since they had better bedside manner. cost? $4700 I recently broke a tooth. I had xrays and the tooth trimmed and a new filling put in. While I was here I had my annual dental checkup & cleaning. Cost? $40. Recently, a friend had back surgery to remove some bone spurs. the Neuro-surgeon was the chief of neurosurgery at the military base in the caital (Guatemala city). My friend was given the choice of having the surgery at a private hospital or by recommendation, at the military hospital. When the surgeon heard my friend was getting the the hospital via a taxi the surgeon icked him u from the hotel and drove him to the hospital himself. Cost incl 3 days stay in the hospital? $2400. and if you have NO money ala the biggest population down here, there are the National hospitals that don't charge anything AT ALL (but frankly, the quality is not that good) Now, how can some 3rd world country offer excellent, affordable healthcare and the U.S. cannot? The biggest difference I see between the countries is you cannot sue the doctor (well, you can but it's expensive/time consuming so you want to have good reason), prescription drugs are very reasonable and the support staff (nurses/residents/etc.) aren't paid $300/hr (plus overtime). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Defender001 Posted December 27, 2009 Members Share Posted December 27, 2009 No, I don't understand it, and never claimed to. I just think someone claiming that Health Care could NEVER work in the USA is stupid.Whether this particular inception of Health Care will work I don't know. But a system could be changed and altered to work, I'm sure. You are acting as if the U.S. is functioning and acting in a rational way; it is not. One major problem, among many, is that the political polarization has become so acute that the system itself is coming close to being dysfunctional. Unless major changes are made, it would be very difficult for health care to work in the U.S. and that is regardless of who supposedly is in charge. A number of posts here have addressed the issues with great detail and accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted December 28, 2009 Members Share Posted December 28, 2009 I live in GuatemalaA couple years ago I had major abdominal surgery here... two surgeons. anesthesiologist, etc., a week in the private hospital, visited EVERY DAY by both the referring doctor and the surgeons, excellent pre & post operative care. I'd stack my dr/surgeons skills against any Dr I've been to in the states. Better, in fact since they had better bedside manner. cost? $4700I recently broke a tooth. I had xrays and the tooth trimmed and a new filling put in. While I was here I had my annual dental checkup & cleaning. Cost? $40. Recently, a friend had back surgery to remove some bone spurs. the Neuro-surgeon was the chief of neurosurgery at the military base in the caital (Guatemala city). My friend was given the choice of having the surgery at a private hospital or by recommendation, at the military hospital. When the surgeon heard my friend was getting the the hospital via a taxi the surgeon icked him u from the hotel and drove him to the hospital himself. Cost incl 3 days stay in the hospital? $2400.and if you have NO money ala the biggest population down here, there are the National hospitals that don't charge anything AT ALL (but frankly, the quality is not that good)Now, how can some 3rd world country offer excellent, affordable healthcare and the U.S. cannot?The biggest difference I see between the countries is you cannot sue the doctor (well, you can but it's expensive/time consuming so you want to have good reason), prescription drugs are very reasonable and the support staff (nurses/residents/etc.) aren't paid $300/hr (plus overtime). ummm...the per capita income in Guatemala is about $5000. That $4700 would be more like $47,000 here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members willsellout Posted December 28, 2009 Members Share Posted December 28, 2009 Politics are gay, I'm awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zachoff Posted December 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 28, 2009 I'm awesome-er I'm gay-er Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thunderbroom Posted December 28, 2009 Members Share Posted December 28, 2009 ummm...the per capita income in Guatemala is about $5000. That $4700 would be more like $47,000 here. There you go again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Super_Donut_Man Posted December 28, 2009 Members Share Posted December 28, 2009 I'm gay-erWhy don't you come sit on my lap, sailor-boy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lug Posted December 28, 2009 Members Share Posted December 28, 2009 There you go again...Sorry, addicted to logic....I hate myself. ....starts cutting.....again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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