Honest question: Would you rather see a GREAT cover band, or a GREAT original band?

[thriftyshirt]

 

Notice that most of the people you named are from the 60s - 80s. At least that's when they did their best music. Nowadays? Not so much in the way of great singer/songwriters/performers. They're probably out there. Talent doesn't just dry up and go away for decades. But for some reason they're not breaking big.

 

 

You can thank major label/radio/recording/live venue monopolies of the music industry for that.

 

Anyone who doesn't fit the current mold of a "garunteed hit" gets either rearranged/changed to fit, or spit out of the system. Nothing revolutionary is happening, because everything with a big budget behind it HAS to be a hit with as bland and broad appeal as possible.

 

No one is taking risks or pushing the envelope, not the industry not the artists.

 

Do you think, if he were signed to Sony Corp. in 2007, the label would ever let Dylan "go electric"? Hell No.

 

Do you think a modern major record label would ever put out anything as weird, exciting, unprescedented, and fantastic as "The White Album"? Hell No.

 

Do you think a modern label would release something with the dubious sound quality of "Exile on Main St."?

 

Do you think a modern major label would produce anything that wasn't focus grouped, market researched, tailored, pigeonholed, simplified, and target marketed until it has no soul left?

 

And the artists that don't fit the mold, don't have the outlet for exposure to the MASS market, due to a stranglehold on radio, television, movie soundtracks, magazines, and virtually the entire entertainment industry by a few huge conglomerates. Yes, independant artists have Myspace, websites, underground magazines, etc. but they'll never compete with bands that have all these things as well as major label marketing money behind them.

 

I bought a piece of pizza a couple weeks ago at a S'Barro's in the mall, and on the lid of my soda was a CD single from some pop band. How is an unsigned act supposed to compete with market saturation like that???

 

Gone are the days when the cream rose to the top. Unless your "cream" looks, sounds, smells, and tastes exactly like the "cream" that's already at the top, you're not going anywhere because Nobody's taking any risks.

[rhat]

 

Actually, its the exact same advice/logic that always comes up in the covers vs. originals threads: Play what people want to hear if you want to make money. Who was selling more records in '93, Nirvana or Van halen? Steve Vai? forget about it... What the record buying public wanted to hear (as evidenced by the money trail) was simplified musicianship, angst-ridden lyrics, and a blue collar "man of the people" vibe. Anyone in a band at the time who wanted to "go where the money is", had to "hide" thier ability and dumb it down to appeal to the prevailing aesthetic of the time. Due to Nirvana, Grunge, and the death of Hair Metal..being a "showoff" just wasn't cool at the time. No it doesn't make sense. But to me, neither does learning/playing songs for the sole purpose of making money. The way I see it, and I realize this is a completley idealistic concept, is that a good Cover band is playing songs that people want to hear, a good original band is playing songs that people want to hear but they don't know it yet.

 

 

 

Oh so you are saying the general public is just too stupid to understand how wonderful all this original music is. and we need it dumbed down for us. .remember that when you are loading in and out for a 45 min set for gas money ... and those dumb ass cover guys are making a 100 bucks or more each down the street playing for morons too stupid to know what good music. ...Not much in the 90s ever impressed me ....I turned that stuff off and started listening to country...... Gotcha lol. rat

[thriftyshirt]

Oh so you are saying the general public is just too stupid to understand how wonderful all this original music is. and we need it dumbed down for us. .remember that when you are loading in and out for a 45 min set for gas money ... and those dumb ass cover guys are making a 100 bucks or more each down the street playing for morons too stupid to know what good music. ...Not much in the 90s ever impressed me ....I turned that stuff off and started listening to country...... Gotcha lol. rat

 

 

Of course, none of the stuff in the 90's appealed to you. It wasn't supposed to. The fact that older people hated grunge was a large part of its appeal to young people (i imagine the same with punk in the 70's).

 

But millions upon millions of records were sold, and billions of dollars were made.

 

And in my area, you can't find a cover band that doesn't do a STP, Alice in Chains, Nirvana, or Pearl Jam song. Even the classic rock cover bands. Because that's what people want to hear where I am.

 

By your own admission "nothing in the 90's was very impressive", but people bought (and continue to buy) tons of that {censored}, as well as request it from bands.

 

 

You and I both agree that the general public is too dumb to even know what they like, we're just saying it in different ways.

[BATCAT]

Not much in the 90s ever impressed me

 

I don't understand how anyone could say "not much" in ANY given decade impressed them and expect what they say to be taken seriously.

[ChordGirl]

 

The way I see it, and I realize this is a completley idealistic concept, is that a good Cover band is playing songs that people want to hear, a good original band is playing songs that people want to hear but they don't know it yet.

 

 

 

DING! DING! DING!!!

[rhat]

I don't understand how anyone coulds say "not much" in ANY given decade impressed them and expect what they say to be taken seriously.

 

I tuned it off and started listening to modern country. Hell lots of people did that. I wasnt in a band ,,, I just found a station that played music that I liked. I had my choice between old classic rock ,, and country. I wanted to hear somthing that had the components that i liked that was new music. I would guess there are alot of people like me.... country music sells pretty well compared to 90s rock. Music at that time in my life was just background noise ,,, I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours out in my garage restoring an antique airplane. I like harmony , good vocals and slick guitar playing. country music provided that stuff.... rat

[ChordGirl]

What's up with the misquoting problem in this thread?

[thriftyshirt]

What's up with the misquoting problem in this thread?

 

rhat started it!!

 

[rhat]

 

DING! DING! DING!!!

 

 

 

I didnt make that post ....my name is on someone elses words.. Who knows maybe another board glitch. This place crashes enough they even updated the " board is down for service page" rat

[ChordGirl]

:D

 

(that's to rhat and TS! I'd better specify, at this point! )

[pink floyd cramer]

IMO the vast majority of original songs suck (although the writers on this forum are ahead of the curve) - but there is a school of thought that you have to write alot of "suck" songs to get to a good one. So thank God for those who make the effort to write original songs and by all means, keep trying- if it weren't for you guys, every song on the radio would be written by Dianne Warren.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

 

You can thank major label/radio/recording/live venue monopolies of the music industry for that. Anyone who doesn't fit the current mold of a "garunteed hit" gets either rearranged/changed to fit, or spit out of the system. Nothing revolutionary is happening, because everything with a big budget behind it HAS to be a hit with as bland and broad appeal as possible. No one is taking risks or pushing the envelope, not the industry not the artists. Do you think, if he were signed to Sony Corp. in 2007, the label would ever let Dylan "go electric"? Hell No. Do you think a modern major record label would ever put out anything as weird, exciting, unprescedented, and fantastic as "The White Album"? Hell No. Do you think a modern label would release something with the dubious sound quality of "Exile on Main St."? Do you think a modern major label would produce anything that wasn't focus grouped, market researched, tailored, pigeonholed, simplified, and target marketed until it has no soul left? And the artists that don't fit the mold, don't have the outlet for exposure to the MASS market, due to a stranglehold on radio, television, movie soundtracks, magazines, and virtually the entire entertainment industry by a few huge conglomerates. Yes, independant artists have Myspace, websites, underground magazines, etc. but they'll never compete with bands that have all these things as well as major label marketing money behind them. I bought a piece of pizza a couple weeks ago at a S'Barro's in the mall, and on the lid of my soda was a CD single from some pop band. How is an unsigned act supposed to compete with market saturation like that??? Gone are the days when the cream rose to the top. Unless your "cream" looks, sounds, smells, and tastes exactly like the "cream" that's already at the top, you're not going anywhere because Nobody's taking any risks.

 

 

Yeah, it was a different atmosphere back then.

 

But then look at Jimi. He broke big in the UK without any major label backing AND with the government controlling the airwaves. The BBC only had 2 stations and controlled what was aired very closely.

An offshore pirate radio station started playing Hey Joe and only then did a label get interested when people started requesting it.

But he wrote commercially viable tunes (that were pared down to the magic 3 minute mark) that were very different and fresh from anything else. We need somebody like him to come along again.

 

Didn't Dylan change labels when he went electric? I know he was booed offstage (well, they tried anyway). Pissed off the folkies.

 

And how about the guy who turned down the Beatles? Only 27 #1 hits.

 

So, in a way, butt heads have always been in charge.

 

So the public must be part of the problem.

 

You would think that with the internet things would be different than they are. I know that there is still payola going on and always will be. But if people start asking for an artist I find it hard to believe that the dorks in charge would turn them down.

 

So I agree with you. It's not just the record industry folks. We all have a part in this current mess.

[MrKnobs]

What's up with the misquoting problem in this thread?

 

This problem happens when you delete part of the post you're quoting, and accidentally nick part of the close quote off the end. This is all to easy to do, given the "helpful" software function of expanding your selected area to the nearest word.

 

MSWord started doing this a few releases back and it's a big pain in the butt there too. I wish I could figure how to turn it off.

 

Terry D.

 

P.S. If you're not sure what I'm talking about, reply to this thread quoting my post. Try to highlight and delete these last few sentences (all the way up to the huh?) and watch your selected area expand automatically into the end quote tag. Nice, huh?

[kurdy]

 

I tuned it off and started listening to modern country. Hell lots of people did that. I wasnt in a band ,,, I just found a station that played music that I liked. I had my choice between old classic rock ,, and country. I wanted to hear somthing that had the components that i liked that was new music. I would guess there are alot of people like me.... country music sells pretty well compared to 90s rock. Music at that time in my life was just background noise ,,, I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours out in my garage restoring an antique airplane. I like harmony , good vocals and slick guitar playing. country music provided that stuff.... rat

 

 

I'm not a fan of modern country, but I can't really argue that...I can't think of another genre that employs as much harmony (albeit often autotuned), and slick musicianship. As a keyboard player, I've noticed even some of the piano parts are pretty damn impressive. I recently heard a song, I think it was called "A Woman's Love" or something--didn't care for the song at all, but there was some really sick gospel piano playing on that track. You don't hear that level of musicianship in a lot of popular music today.

 

I think what a lot of original bands overlook is the songwriting. When it comes to live music--audiences generally like to dance, and they like catchy songs. Most bands are so caught up in showing off their musicianship via extended jams, or jumping around, that they forget to consider, is it really entertaining to an audience who hasn't heard them before? A lot more people would remember them if they just gave 'em a catchy hook and a good beat. That doesn't necessarily mean compromising your "art". That's how the Beatles got away with so much. No matter how weird or "far out" they got, their songs were always catchy. (Of course, it obviously didn't hurt that they were the Beatles.) I think a lot of original bands nowadays could benefit from listening to '50s and '60s popular music. And yes, there may be an audience out there for any type of music, but bands have to expect some audiences are going to be more limited than others.

 

I think modern country music is basically bubble gum for adults...but you can't deny the craft involved...and my mom likes it a lot.

[rhat]

 

I'm not a fan of modern country, but I can't really argue that...I can't think of another genre that employs as much harmony (albeit often autotuned), and slick musicianship. As a keyboard player, I've noticed even some of the piano parts are pretty damn impressive. I recently heard a song, I think it was called "A Woman's Love" or something--didn't care for the song at all, but there was some really sick gospel piano playing on that track. You don't hear that level of musicianship in a lot of popular music today. I think what a lot of original bands overlook is the songwriting. When it comes to live music--audiences generally like to dance, and they like catchy songs. Most bands are so caught up in showing off their musicianship via extended jams, or jumping around, that they forget to consider, is it really entertaining to an audience who hasn't heard them before? A lot more people would remember them if they just gave 'em a catchy hook and a good beat. That doesn't necessarily mean compromising your "art". That's how the Beatles got away with so much. No matter how weird or "far out" they got, their songs were always catchy. (Of course, it obviously didn't hurt that they were the Beatles.) I think a lot of original bands nowadays could benefit from listening to '50s and '60s popular music. And yes, there may be an audience out there for any type of music, but bands have to expect some audiences are going to be more limited than others. I think modern country music is basically bubble gum for adults...but you can't deny the craft involved...and my mom likes it a lot.

 

 

 

The beatles started slipping after rubber soul. If i were a original band ,, and i wanted to go back in time and nab some ideas. I would listen to the hollies. Modern country is a ton better from a musical standpoint than bubble gum......Those country bands have some chops and they have the vocals. They also know how to market bands as well as artists......Nothing ccompares in modern music to the way the country can "get er done" Its easy for people to say they hate modern country ,, but you cant overlook the success for both artists and bands.... rat

[pink floyd cramer]

The best pickers are country pickers because they have all the technical facility (and don't lose all their {censored} when they can't hide behind walls of effects) but can, and HAVE to, play with soul and economy when the song calls for it. The average bluegrass picker with his pants hitched up to his collarbone can play circles around those pissant little shred-boys. I used to play with a dude who could rip it up on Orange Blossom Special and he told me, I can do everything the rock guys do (and he proved it) but they can't do what I do. BTW 2-handed tapping sounds like {censored}, tonewise.

 

Speed and technical facility are way overrated. If you have ten fingers, a couple hours free time to practice everyday, and your Mama buying your groceries you can develop as much speed and facility as anybody. And you will also find, nobody gives a {censored}. This post sponsored by Burnett's (triple filtered but still cheap) vodka.

[rhat]

 

The best pickers are country pickers because they have all the technical facility (and don't lose all their {censored} when they can't hide behind walls of effects) but can, and HAVE to, play with soul and economy when the song calls for it. The average bluegrass picker with his pants hitched up to his collarbone can play circles around those pissant little shred-boys. I used to play with a dude who could rip it up on Orange Blossom Special and he told me, I can do everything the rock guys do (and he proved it) but they can't do what I do. BTW 2-handed tapping sounds like {censored}, tonewise. Speed and technical facility are way overrated. If you have ten fingers, a couple hours free time to practice everyday, and your Mama buying your groceries you can develop as much speed and facility as anybody. And you will also find, nobody gives a {censored}. This post sponsored by Burnett's (triple filtered but still cheap) vodka.

 

 

 

Yup ,,, dem country boys can pick.... their kids can pick too. Mr Travis has a son named tom. Here is his web site... Go roam around this site a little folks and get back to us. I friend of mine built tom a custom super 400 type guitar just like tom's daddy had. The guitar is on this website.... its a unity. http://www.bresh.com/

 

rat

[pink floyd cramer]

 

As a keyboard player, I've noticed even some of the piano parts are pretty damn impressive. I recently heard a song, I think it was called "A Woman's Love" or something--didn't care for the song at all, but there was some really sick gospel piano playing on that track. You don't hear that level of musicianship in a lot of popular music today.

 

 

Matt Rollings most likely plaid that part. He is without a doubt one of the best- and most chameleon-like- piano players on the planet. He goes from barrelhouse to funk, bebob to unparalleled ballad playing. Listen to "We Tell Ourselves (Clint Black) "Snake Oil" (Steve Earle) "Good Brown Gravy" (Joe Diffy) and the entire "New Nashville Cats" CD (esp. "Black Tie") and you'll see what I mean. He also outfeats Little Feat on Lyle Lovett's "Memphis".

[rhat]

 

Matt Rollings most likely plaid that part. He is without a doubt one of the best- and most chameleon-like- piano players on the planet. He goes from barrelhouse to funk, bebob to unparalleled ballad playing. Listen to "We Tell Ourselves (Clint Black) "Snake Oil" (Steve Earle) "Good Brown Gravy" (Joe Diffy) and the entire "New Nashville Cats" CD (esp. "Black Tie") and you'll see what I mean. He also outfeats Little Feat on Lyle Lovett's "Memphis".

 

 

 

The board is up to its old tricks again ,,, i did not make the quote ,,, but thanks for the info on the keys. Did you have any time to check out tom bresh? He is one smokin hot guitar player ... He is pretty funny too. He has all kinds of music vid clips on that site. The guy an amazing guitar player ....I would guess he has taken a few rides on willie's tour bus if you know what i mean lol. He is pretty laid back rat

[wades_keys]

 

The board is up to its old tricks again ,,, i did not make the quote

 

 

Hey Rhat, to fix the quote problems you want to make sure that every tag that has {Quote=} (replace braces with square brackets) has a corresponding "end" tag, {/quote}.

 

You can just type the "end tag" in yourself - they work like parenthesis in grammar and can be nested.

[Jimi Ray Halen]

The best pickers are country pickers because they have all the technical facility (and don't lose all their {censored} when they can't hide behind walls of effects) but can, and HAVE to, play with soul and economy when the song calls for it. The average bluegrass picker with his pants hitched up to his collarbone can play circles around those pissant little shred-boys. I used to play with a dude who could rip it up on Orange Blossom Special and he told me, I can do everything the rock guys do (and he proved it) but they can't do what I do. BTW 2-handed tapping sounds like {censored}, tonewise. Speed and technical facility are way overrated. If you have ten fingers, a couple hours free time to practice everyday, and your Mama buying your groceries you can develop as much speed and facility as anybody. And you will also find, nobody gives a {censored}. This post sponsored by Burnett's (triple filtered but still cheap) vodka.

 

I grew up listening to Chet, Roy Clark, Glenn Campbell, Merle, etc. (along with the Beatles, Stones, Jimi, etc.) and those guys are phenominal. This tradition has been carried over and guys like Brad Paisley are smoking.

Paisley learned a lot of the Van Halen catalog as part of his development. Smart move. Because you know what? People DO like it. Maybe not all night. But in the right songs it impresses people. Hell, people are blown away if you use your LP toggle switch as a cut off switch a la VH's You Really Got Me cover.

And tapping is not easy to master. So even if you don't use it all the time, it makes you a better overall player.

I have a couple of hours a day to practice if I'm lucky. I'm learning it.

But I also use country techniques like hybrid picking, double-stop bends, and major/minor pentatonic variations. (Joe Walsh does some cool stuff like this)

Heck, I steal from everybody. It's all guitar playing to me. It fascinates me and I want to learn it. Anything/everything. As long as you don't get stuck on one technique and become a one trick pony. It's good to have a varied bag of tricks to draw from to keep folks interested.

So you may say that I disagree with you somewhat.

Blanket statements...........

[kurdy]

 

The beatles started slipping after rubber soul. If i were a original band ,, and i wanted to go back in time and nab some ideas. I would listen to the hollies. Modern country is a ton better from a musical standpoint than bubble gum......Those country bands have some chops and they have the vocals. They also know how to market bands as well as artists......Nothing ccompares in modern music to the way the country can "get er done" Its easy for people to say they hate modern country ,, but you cant overlook the success for both artists and bands.... rat

 

 

I'm not denying the skill of the writers, producers, and players in country music. I really don't think it's different from bubble gum, in that both are meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator. But I'm not necessarily knocking bubble gum. The music of those boy bands and teen pop starts from the late '90s--even if you couldn't stand it, that was some expertly crafted, well arranged and produced stuff--kinda reminiscent of Motown in the '60s. If there's one major difference in sensibility between the two genres, it's that there's more emphasis on lyrics in country than pop. But there is a lot of attention to craft involved in both genres, and no lack of talent on the writer and producer's end.

 

I think we probably agree more than disagree on this subject. I recently heard that Carrie Underwood song "Before He Cheats", and as much as I didn't want to like it, I can't deny that is a freakin' great song. It just hooks you right away. And yes, I think a lot of alternative and indie rock bands could benefit from applying some of the musical sensibilities of country into their own style--might make for many more worthwhile bands.

[rhat]

 

I'm not denying the skill of the writers, producers, and players in country music. I really don't think it's different from bubble gum, in that both are meant to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

 

i think that is where a ton of younger and even some older musicians just dont get it ..... if you consider people who buy and listen to music the lowest common denominator, you really dont have any idea what you are up there on the stage to do.

 

Maybe that is one of the reasons so many people who are out there failing to even make a gas money with their music after hauling all their gear out ,, spending the time and effort with promotional material and pretending to be a rockstar. If a musician thinks of the customer as the lowest common denominator it tends to show. Typically that harpoons anything good that you migh have going for you. Just my opinon. But bull {censored} walks ,, and successful country music stars ride in big tour busses and biz jets. rat

[pink floyd cramer]

I grew up listening to Chet, Roy Clark, Glenn Campbell, Merle, etc. (along with the Beatles, Stones, Jimi, etc.) and those guys are phenominal. This tradition has been carried over and guys like Brad Paisley are smoking. Paisley learned a lot of the Van Halen catalog as part of his development. Smart move. Because you know what? People DO like it. Maybe not all night. But in the right songs it impresses people. Hell, people are blown away if you use your LP toggle switch as a cut off switch a la VH's You Really Got Me cover. And tapping is not easy to master. So even if you don't use it all the time, it makes you a better overall player. I have a couple of hours a day to practice if I'm lucky. I'm learning it. But I also use country techniques like hybrid picking, double-stop bends, and major/minor pentatonic variations. (Joe Walsh does some cool stuff like this) Heck, I steal from everybody. It's all guitar playing to me. It fascinates me and I want to learn it. Anything/everything. As long as you don't get stuck on one technique and become a one trick pony. It's good to have a varied bag of tricks to draw from to keep folks interested. So you may say that I disagree with you somewhat. Blanket statements...........

 

I respect that, JRV. I just get fed up with guitar players who only do country gigs to make money, and who don't really care about country guitar or apply themselves to learning it. I have only played with about 4 pickers (over 17 years of playing country gigs) that could cop anything close to a Brent Mason/ Chet/ Albert Lee feel. If Matt Rollings on piano can adapt 2-fisted clav chops to country piano, I'm sure a talented guitar player could do the same with Eddie (VH's) stuff.

 

And I would much rather see a great originals band, but to me "originals" means fresh interpretations of timeless songs too. (trying to bring this thread back on course, it's a way too cool thread to kill.)