The "Hired Gun"

[lonotes]

Still, there's no reason for going onto our website's guestbook and calling me a coward!! There's no justifying him disrespecting me and our band like that! I don't care what you say.

 

 

You'll get NO disagreement from me on that.

[rhat]

I was in a similar situation. Regular guitarist couldn't make it, so I called a guy i'd never played with. For two gigs, one paid 300. a man, one 400. I sent him some charts and asked for one rehearsal. He shows up late to the rehearsal, doesn't know the music. I realize at this point he is really not going to be able to really do what I'd like him to be able to do, but I'm stuck. I get through the gig by basically covering what I hired him to do. A couple weeks before the next gig, regular guitarist calls and says he can make it. I call sub and tell him the last gig wasn't very good seeing as he really didn't know the music, and the next gig is off. I feel I had every right to do so, seeing as the guy really couldn't cut the music and that for 400.00, you better play the damn music, but I still felt bad about it.

 

 

 

To me the whole idea of hired gun subs is a little optimistic. Its pretty darn hard even for a really solid player to walk in cold to a band and fill the shoes of a regular member. You can ship them charts... you can send them the original tracks that you cover. Typically things dont just fall together without spending the time to really rehearse the material. If you have a 60 songs you need to perform....to expect perfection out of the hired most of the time is somthing that just isnt going to happen.... Personally i would rather have things recorded and just run a backtrack to replace the missing member. That way you have no unknowns. It does require that the band be well rehearsed and play the songs like clockwork.

 

 

You may get lucky and find the hired gun that can pull it off ,, but i would think the odds are slim. How many times does a band take a new song ,,, and ace the thing on the first runthrough... after everyone has wood shedded the thing up on their own? This is really what you are expecting a hired gun to do. Thats expecting 60 bullseyes in a row ... rat

[patchedguitar]

To me the whole idea of hired gun subs is a little optimistic. Its pretty darn hard even for a really solid player to walk in cold to a band and fill the shoes of a regular member. You can ship them charts... you can send them the original tracks that you cover. Typically things dont just fall together without spending the time to really rehearse the material. If you have a 60 songs you need to perform....to expect perfection out of the hired most of the time is somthing that just isnt going to happen.... Personally i would rather have things recorded and just run a backtrack to replace the missing member. That way you have no unknowns. It does require that the band be well rehearsed and play the songs like clockwork. You may get lucky and find the hired gun that can pull it off ,, but i would think the odds are slim. How many times does a band take a new song ,,, and ace the thing on the first runthrough... after everyone has wood shedded the thing up on their own? This is really what you are expecting a hired gun to do. Thats expecting 60 bullseyes in a row ... rat

 

 

That's how I feel. No matter how good of a player you are, I'd still like to get together just to get a feel for the music because we don't play a lot of the songs note for note and often use our own little rearrangements. Starts, stops, and endings are really important. Especially for the bass player who is really the foundation of it all. I'm also singing 85% of the lead vocals and it's hard to turn around and give the guys a cue for a stop or maybe a key change, but I do it anyway, making my job harder. If we rehearse the parts, then I'm comfortable enough to concentrate more on my vocal parts without having to turn around and give 110% at our shows.

[New Trail]

 

I was in a similar situation. Regular guitarist couldn't make it, so I called a guy i'd never played with. For two gigs, one paid 300. a man, one 400. I sent him some charts and asked for one rehearsal. He shows up late to the rehearsal, doesn't know the music. I realize at this point he is really not going to be able to really do what I'd like him to be able to do, but I'm stuck. I get through the gig by basically covering what I hired him to do. A couple weeks before the next gig, regular guitarist calls and says he can make it. I call sub and tell him the last gig wasn't very good seeing as he really didn't know the music, and the next gig is off. I feel I had every right to do so, seeing as the guy really couldn't cut the music and that for 400.00, you better play the damn music, but I still felt bad about it.

 

 

This situation is different from the OP's scenario. You were honest and upfront with the guy, after using him on a gig at which his performance proved to be unacceptable. The OP hired the "hired gun" then reneged when the bass player became available. IMO this is not professional. I would never accept a gig from the OP if I was the hired gun. And what about the OP's band's reputation as per future subs? Won't word get around that if this band calls you for a gig you'll get cancelled if the original bandmember becomes available? The point is being missed here.

[wades_keys]

That's how I feel. No matter how good of a player you are, I'd still like to get together just to get a feel for the music because we don't play a lot of the songs note for note and often use our own little rearrangements. Starts, stops, and endings are really important. Especially for the bass player who is really the foundation of it all. I'm also singing 85% of the lead vocals and it's hard to turn around and give the guys a cue for a stop or maybe a key change, but I do it anyway, making my job harder. If we rehearse the parts, then I'm comfortable enough to concentrate more on my vocal parts without having to turn around and give 110% at our shows.

 

 

Why not make recordings of your own "little arrangements"?

 

There, problem solved - with no need for rehearsals.

 

I think you should have offered the guy 20 bucks or something for cancelling on him - that was very unprofessional of you; as has been pointed out there is no telling how much time and effort this sub spent before you reneged on him.

 

And next time, have recordings of your songs - good musicians don't need band rehearsal to learn things - just a good recording and/or charts.

[wades_keys]

You may get lucky and find the hired gun that can pull it off ,, but i would think the odds are slim. How many times does a band take a new song ,,, and ace the thing on the first runthrough... after everyone has wood shedded the thing up on their own?

 

 

I can't speak for anybody else (the "band") - but I do this all the time, and consistently.

 

I s'pose if everyone in the band can do this, then problem solved.

 

From a subs point of view, the "band" doesn't matter - it only matters that he knows the changes inside and out.

[patchedguitar]

This situation is different from the OP's scenario. You were honest and upfront with the guy, after using him on a gig at which his performance proved to be unacceptable. The OP hired the "hired gun" then reneged when the bass player became available. IMO this is not professional. I would never accept a gig from the OP if I was the hired gun. And what about the OP's band's reputation as per future subs? Won't word get around that if this band calls you for a gig you'll get cancelled if the original bandmember becomes available? The point is being missed here.

 

 

I wasn't dishonest and I was upfront and let him know right when I found out. Oh, and going to another bands website to make sly remarks is professional?! We've rarely have to use subs and the times that we did, it was due to an emergency. So I doubt that "word" will get around about us, not to mention the fact that we have a outstanding reputation amongst the fellow musicians in our community. There are guys that would jump at the chance to play with us. So your comments mean nothing.

[patchedguitar]

I think you should have offered the guy 20 bucks or something for cancelling on him - that was very unprofessional of you; as has been pointed out there is no telling how much time and effort this sub spent before you reneged on him.

Again, there was no effort on his part. He didn't even start working on anything before I let him know that the plans had changed.

[wades_keys]

to expect perfection out of the hired most of the time is somthing that just isnt going to happen.... Personally i would rather have things recorded and just run a backtrack to replace the missing member. That way you have no unknowns. It does require that the band be well rehearsed and play the songs like clockwork.

 

Backtracks are a trainwreck waiting to happen - better hope your drummer can play to a click....

 

The expectation - that's an interesting area there only in the realm of improv - if you are talking covers then the sub just has to learn/play the stock parts as recorded by the original artist - what's so tough about that, really?

 

There are guys out there that have in their vocabulary right now 250+ songs - those type of guys can walk up to anystage, anytime, anywhere and play well.

 

In fact a goal of mine for the next five years is to do just that - learn as many standards as possible and get into the sub game.

 

It can be done - we tend to I think project our own personal shortcomings and fears onto situations; it pays to open one's eyes and realize that cats like Chuck Leavell can just walk up to the stage and let it rip.

[mickeydean]

guys, i make a living as a "hired gun". there are no rehearsals most of the time, even when i am subbing for name acts. sometimes a quick run thru in the morning and 9 times outta 10 you are not the only sub.

 

you are lucky if you get charts ahead of time, you will normally get a set list with keys, but you get paid to be great without knowing the material real well.

 

are you guys telling me there is a market for crappy "hired guns". what would be the point of that?

[wades_keys]

guys, i make a living as a "hired gun". there are no rehearsals most of the time, even when i am subbing for name acts. sometimes a quick run thru in the morning and 9 times outta 10 you are not the only sub. you are lucky if you get charts ahead of time, you will normally get a set list with keys, but you get paid to be great without knowing the material real well. are you guys telling me there is a market for crappy "hired guns". what would be the point of that?

Awesome.

That's what I'm talking about - a professional.

The emphasis on "rehearsals" is just a projection of fear and insecurity - it ain't needed people.

Ever seen that scene in "That THing you Do" with the hired gun bass player?

They were worried that he would need to "rehearse" to learn some of the bass lines - the guy just stood there and ripped some incredible sheehan type licks without even flinching - case closed

[mickeydean]

the first time i got hired to do "Always Patsy Cline" the entire band, with the exception of the piano player/music director was subs.

 

there was a 1 hour run thru 4 hours before the 1st performance and you made your own charts that included all the cuts and dialogue crap you gotta know to do those shows. there were no vocalists present, just the band.

 

then we did 4 sold out shows in a 1600 seat theater over 2 days. by the 2nd show we were drinking beers at intermission.

 

the band is onstage for the whole musical. 1600 people in the audience playing a show live with no rehearsal. the 1st time you play the stuff all the way through, there's an audience!

 

it's about as much fun as it gets.

 

i know i am new here but wades keys is right on the money.

 

he's my hero.

[StratKat]

I too work as both a regular in a group and as a hired gun on guitar and on bass.

Anytime someone hires me for a gig and i have agreed to the price/time/show it is MY gig at that point for that instrument. But understandably you would have wanted and prefered your bassist who knows your material.

And a call at 1 am to a pro musician? most are up till 3am anyways... But even if you didnt call because it was late, you still should have called in the morning and confirmed your change of plans with the hired gun. It was YOUR responsibility to advise him (and you did).

Now as to 'kill' fees or release payments? Yes, some do require that but only if it is agreed upon when being hired. If its not talked about or agreed to by both parties at the time of hiring (not later at performing) then there is no termination fee or deposit on the job.
And this has happened tome several times onver the thirty plus years ive been gigging. As both the hired gun, and as the person who had a hired gun replace me during a conflict of interests.

In any event, if you hire someone it is up to you personally to make certain they understand the terms of employment/dismissal and agree to them. And under no circumstances do you abuse people in this biz.

Ive seen a few nut casses pull guns, knives, baseball bats, and all sorts of evil-ness on people at gigs who they THOUGHT screwed them over. And get away with it after taking their revenge of sorts.

It aint friggin worth the grief to play bad ass or tough guy when doing business. Be nice, play nice, be understanding... and move on with a lesson learned.

Besides, someday you may find that you desparately need a bassist and its always better to keep GOOD players happy even if it means stroking them abit when they may be wrong. USE them to your advantage and prosper. And dont make the same mistakes twice.

[rhat]

guys, i make a living as a "hired gun". there are no rehearsals most of the time, even when i am subbing for name acts. sometimes a quick run thru in the morning and 9 times outta 10 you are not the only sub. you are lucky if you get charts ahead of time, you will normally get a set list with keys, but you get paid to be great without knowing the material real well. are you guys telling me there is a market for crappy "hired guns". what would be the point of that?

 

 

 

 

I would guess its more a matter of a shortage of hired guns as good as you are. I am not that good, never have been that good ,, and wont be that good in the future. If you are that good ,,, you may be worth the entire gig pay for the average bar band. Guys like you are not comming out of the woodwork. I think thats the reality of things. There are way more average guys who, cant walk in at the last minute, get tossed a bunch of songs and ace the deal. For those of you who are out there who can ,,, my hats off to you. rat

[lonotes]

Again, there was no effort on his part. He didn't even start working on anything before I let him know that the plans had changed.

 

 

Maybe this time. What about the next time? Will you be this considerate to the next guy who is willing to help you out of a tight spot? Your attitude seems to say that you will. See how quickly a reputation can be built? And as far as this guy doing nothing for you, What would you have done without a sub? It's likely that you would have canceled the gig. Would you have gotten the gig back, after your bass player was suddenly available? Not if the club had booked a replacement. So at the very least, without lifting a finger at all, the sub saved the gig for you. And still, you give him no credit at all.

[patchedguitar]

I too work as both a regular in a group and as a hired gun on guitar and on bass. Anytime someone hires me for a gig and i have agreed to the price/time/show it is MY gig at that point for that instrument. But understandably you would have wanted and prefered your bassist who knows your material. And a call at 1 am to a pro musician? most are up till 3am anyways... But even if you didnt call because it was late, you still should have called in the morning and confirmed your change of plans with the hired gun. It was YOUR responsibility to advise him (and you did). Now as to 'kill' fees or release payments? Yes, some do require that but only if it is agreed upon when being hired. If its not talked about or agreed to by both parties at the time of hiring (not later at performing) then there is no termination fee or deposit on the job. And this has happened tome several times onver the thirty plus years ive been gigging. As both the hired gun, and as the person who had a hired gun replace me during a conflict of interests. In any event, if you hire someone it is up to you personally to make certain they understand the terms of employment/dismissal and agree to them. And under no circumstances do you abuse people in this biz. Ive seen a few nut casses pull guns, knives, baseball bats, and all sorts of evil-ness on people at gigs who they THOUGHT screwed them over. And get away with it after taking their revenge of sorts. It aint friggin worth the grief to play bad ass or tough guy when doing business. Be nice, play nice, be understanding... and move on with a lesson learned. Besides, someday you may find that you desparately need a bassist and its always better to keep GOOD players happy even if it means stroking them abit when they may be wrong. USE them to your advantage and prosper. And dont make the same mistakes twice.

 

 

I agree with what you said. At no point in time did I say or do anything to make myself look like a "bad ass" etc. That was until he disrespected me by calling me a coward. We both have since apologized to each other and moved on.

[StratKat]

guys, i make a living as a "hired gun". there are no rehearsals most of the time, even when i am subbing for name acts. sometimes a quick run thru in the morning and 9 times outta 10 you are not the only sub. you are lucky if you get charts ahead of time, you will normally get a set list with keys, but you get paid to be great without knowing the material real well. are you guys telling me there is a market for crappy "hired guns". what would be the point of that?

This is a good point! When i get a call from people to do subs on guitar or bass they ALREADY know about me from other players they trust. They know what type of material i know and perform. They know there will be some rough spots here and there, but that i will smooth out those rough spots as best i can and everyone gets by. Sub-bing is a much harder art than most realize if you truly are good at it. And its a ton more pressure than being the guys who know the show. They also know what my personality and bad habits are if i have any () from the poeple they have talked too.

And noone works for very long as a pro sub if they dont deliver the goods!

We arnt better, or worse than other players. But we do have a few skills to do our thing that took years to build.

I get asked alot why i dont settle into full time bands. Truth is, i got tired of the crap and egomaniacs and sad-sacks who make excuses why they cant do this or do that. Now, i dont have any of that to deal with. I show up, set up, play, get paid, go home without having to get involved with all the underlying agendas and problems of the bands. But when something long term presents itself and its profitable i may join up for awhile to see where its headed. I stopped letting bands run MY life and foolish "We're-a-gonna-make-it!" speeches and band funds drag me along.

[StratKat]

I agree with what you said. At no point in time did I say or do anything to make myself look like a "bad ass" etc. That was until he disrespected me by calling me a coward. We both have since apologized to each other and moved on.

 

 

EXCELLENT!

 

But my point was that when he got angry and made a threat towards you you should have been mnice and just made a simple apology and kept the guy on line for future problems.

[patchedguitar]

Maybe this time. What about the next time? Will you be this considerate to the next guy who is willing to help you out of a tight spot? Your attitude seems to say that you will. See how quickly a reputation can be built? And as far as this guy doing nothing for you, What would you have done without a sub? It's likely that you would have canceled the gig. Would you have gotten the gig back, after your bass player was suddenly available? Not if the club had booked a replacement. So at the very least, without lifting a finger at all, the sub saved the gig for you. And still, you give him no credit at all.

 

 

He wasn't the only sub available, so, no, we wouldn't have had to cancel. As far as saving the gig for us and saving our asses, are you kidding me? We could've done the gig as a trio ,if worse came to worse, sans the drummer and bass player. My point is that you make it sound like that he was our only option when, in fact, he wasn't.

[patchedguitar]

EXCELLENT! But my point was that when he got angry and made a threat towards you you should have been mnice and just made a simple apology and kept the guy on line for future problems.

Point taken.

[lonotes]

He wasn't the only sub available, so, no, we wouldn't have had to cancel. As far as saving the gig for us and saving our asses, are you kidding me? We could've done the gig as a trio ,if worse came to worse, sans the drummer and bass player. My point is that you make it sound like that he was our only option when, in fact, he wasn't.

 

 

Whatever. Obviously you felt that he was the best option out of those available at the time. Otherwise, you wouldn't have called him in the first place. He was wrong for leaving derogatory messages on your website when you reneged on him. But now it sounds like your just trying to minimize his situation in order to justify your own treatment of him.

[patchedguitar]

You might be surprised at just how quickly that can change.

Why would you say a thing like that without knowing of my reputation and that of the other memebers in my band? I agree that it could change, sure, but if you have the respect of a lot of others, why would you even think that they will start looking at you differently just because of this little incident. You act like I'm an asshole that didn't even bother letting him know until he showed up to the gig to find out that he wasn't needed after all.

[MartinC]

This situation is different from the OP's scenario. You were honest and upfront with the guy, after using him on a gig at which his performance proved to be unacceptable. The OP hired the "hired gun" then reneged when the bass player became available. IMO this is not professional. I would never accept a gig from the OP if I was the hired gun. And what about the OP's band's reputation as per future subs? Won't word get around that if this band calls you for a gig you'll get cancelled if the original bandmember becomes available? The point is being missed here.

 

 

I agree it was a different situation, and I think the OP was wrong to not use the guy. I would have told the regular member sorry, or I would have given some payment to the sub.

 

Also I agree with Rhat that it is asking a lot to sub in a band that's been together for a long time. I tried to be realistic about what I could expect from the guy. I added standards to the set list and deleted originals that were not on the cd I gave the guy. I sent charts for all the material including the well worn jazz standards. The guitarist needed to have flamenco chops, which is why I hired him. Unfortunately, flamenco is it's own little world, and the guy lacked basic chart reading skills, and he had little to no exposure to the standards. The guy said he had never even heard "All the things you are" I might expect that from a Spanish flamenco player, but not a guy living and working in the US.

 

Well, as I found out, it's possible that you could be a decent working flamenco guitarist and not know any of that stuff. That's why I felt bad. The guy knew what he knew. I assumed too much. Also, I figured that for that kind of money, he'd learn whatever needed to be learned. That's what I'd have tried to do. I really don't know how much prep time he spent, but whatever it was, wasn't enough. I hate using subs:mad:

[lonotes]

You might be surprised at just how quickly that can change.

Why would you say a thing like that without knowing of my reputation and that of the other memebers in my band? I agree that it could change, sure, but if you have the respect of a lot of others, why would you even think that they will start looking at you differently just because of this little incident. You act like I'm an asshole that didn't even bother letting him know until he showed up to the gig to find out that he wasn't needed after all.

Reputations aren't always diminished because of truth. Rumors have a funny way of starting out in one way, and morphing into something altogether different. He tells one friend who tells someone else who tells a guy who knows a guy, and pretty soon, you canceling a gig becomes you eating a baby. The people that know you well, know that it's untrue. The people who have only heard of you, but don't know you, don't know that it's not true. But in terms of reputation, they both have equal weight. Sure, one incident is pretty unlikely to have a major impact, but it's not impossible. I guess that I have to clarify that a lot of my posts in this thread are directed more towards the etiquette of dealing with sidemen and subs in general, rather than this specific situation. I have said, repeatedly, that I think this guy acted inappropriately, but that may just be the guy that will start the bad rumor. To your credit, you did give him notice, in a timely fashion. But I feel that, in general, a phone call would have been more in line. Maybe this guy didn't begin to prepare for the gig, but what if he did have several hours invested in preparation? Should that just be overlooked. IMO, you negotiated your way into the arrangement, you should also negotiate your way out of it. It's likely that he wouldn't feel the need for any compensation for his prep time, but it should be his option. After all, what if he had to go buy four or five CD's to learn the material? If it's music that he might listen to anyway, it's probably no big deal. But if he hates the bands, and bought them only to learn the songs for your gig, then he's spent money for nothing. Once again, I know that it's not pertinent to this situation, but it's an etiquette thing. If you just cut him loose with an email, he has no opportunity to inject what he has invested into the conversation. When both parties act responsibly and professionally, there is much less chance for nasty rumors to even begin.

[patchedguitar]

You might be surprised at just how quickly that can change. Reputations aren't always diminished because of truth. Rumors have a funny way of starting out in one way, and morphing into something altogether different. He tells one friend who tells someone else who tells a guy who knows a guy, and pretty soon, you canceling a gig becomes you eating a baby. The people that know you well, know that it's untrue. The people who have only heard of you, but don't know you, don't know that it's not true. But in terms of reputation, they both have equal weight. Sure, one incident is pretty unlikely to have a major impact, but it's not impossible. I guess that I have to clarify that a lot of my posts in this thread are directed more towards the etiquette of dealing with sidemen and subs in general, rather than this specific situation. I have said, repeatedly, that I think this guy acted inappropriately, but that may just be the guy that will start the bad rumor. To your credit, you did give him notice, in a timely fashion. But I feel that, in general, a phone call would have been more in line. Maybe this guy didn't begin to prepare for the gig, but what if he did have several hours invested in preparation? Should that just be overlooked. IMO, you negotiated your way into the arrangement, you should also negotiate your way out of it. It's likely that he wouldn't feel the need for any compensation for his prep time, but it should be his option. After all, what if he had to go buy four or five CD's to learn the material? If it's music that he might listen to anyway, it's probably no big deal. But if he hates the bands, and bought them only to learn the songs for your gig, then he's spent money for nothing. Once again, I know that it's not pertinent to this situation, but it's an etiquette thing. If you just cut him loose with an email, he has no opportunity to inject what he has invested into the conversation. When both parties act responsibly and professionally, there is much less chance for nasty rumors to even begin.

Well rumors are something I don't pay attention to. And those who usually start the rumors, are sad cases themselves. I don't worry about them either.

I respect everyone's opinons that have posted thus far, including yours. So, thanks for posting. Maybe we all learned something from this. I, for one, am grateful. Thanks guys!

Now on to the gig!