Kickass auditioning singer has complaints about drummer. Should I tell the drummer?

[GreenAsJade]

Somebody who read my entire comment

 

Considering you copied a whole page of someone else's post, it's a miracle anyone read the few confusing lines you put afterwards at all!

 

TullsterX advice was spot on: tell the drummer he's a problem, don't bring the singer into it (otherwise you'll just be setting up for arguing who's right the drummer or the singer). It's _you_ who thinks the drummer needs to shape up or ship out, so that's what you tell him.

 

GaJ

[Terry Allan Hall]

Sounds like the drummer doesn't understand how serious you guys are. I would mention it. Say something like, "It was embarrasing to have you screwing up the rehearsal songs." If you don't feel like you can tell him that without him blowing up or something, then I think you need a new drummer. I would definitely NOT say, "This singer guys says you suck."

 

 

Absolutely...no reason to create extra friction by telling him that the singer doesn't dig his beats...just tell him this is a "head's up".

 

I'd give him an ultimatum: lose the charts/stand and get rock solid on every tune by (specific date of your choosing) and if he doesn't comply, say "buh-bye"...and I'd start gathering some new drummer's info TODAY!

[Jack Walker]

Well... you did preface the post by saying you would kick the singer to the curb. I'm with the majority, here. The singer sounds like a seasoned pro. Most seasoned pros don't waste time with half-assed musicians. Robben would be smart to hitch his wagon to this guy, and find a good rhythm section, then start from there.

 

 

Amen, brother. I have, after God knows how many years, found a singer that I really like. She's younger but has a bit of Janis is her and knows how to entertain an audience. She's responsible, damn serious about her music and a cool person to boot. We, along with another keyboard player who I also have a great deal of respect for, have been putting together a project just to book some smaller jobs and have some fun. We've played one job together and I couldn't have scripted it any better. We play another one tomorrow night.I'm starting to think this may end up being my fulltime thing. It's finally fun playing music again. My point being is that the singer has to be there. If not, you are wasting your time.

[Jack Walker]

Absolutely...no reason to create extra friction by telling him that the singer doesn't dig his beats...just tell him this is a "head's up". I'd give him an ultimatum: lose the charts/stand and get rock solid on every tune by (specific date of your choosing) and if he doesn't comply, say "buh-bye"...and I'd start gathering some new drummer's info TODAY!

 

 

I have to agree with Terry on this one. You only get to go around once. You might as well do the best job you can do. If the drummer doesn't share your sentiment, and wouldn't waste my time pulling him along.

[B Money]

....Your new singer has a very valid point. Remember he is black and they have dance in their blood. He knows what it takes to make a crowd dance and probably has lots of feedback from working the crowd...

 

 

 

 

wow

[coyote-1]

Two things:

a) If the drummer does not have it together, let him go. Great singers are rare, good drummers plentiful.

b) Don't complain about charts. If a guy can play, let him use charts.

More opinionated take: Standard8, what's this nonsense about "heart being in it"??? Are you looking for a musician or for a girlfriend?? I want a great player who uses charts. Know why? Because it means he's so in-demand that he's REALLY great. I don't care if he doesn't have time to memorize every tom fill... it cracks me up to hear rockers talk about not reading as some sort of sign of professionalism. Every classical orchestra uses charts, even when playing something as simple as "Stars and Stripes Forever". Most jazz groups use charts, whether it's a big band arrangement or a Herbie Hancock acoustic trio. "Charts = unprofessional".... you crack me up.

I always bring this chart thing up with the drummer, and his excuse, "I don't trust the bass player to play the song correctly, so that's why I use the charts. If I don't use charts and he's off, and he often is, then that throws me off. With the charts, at least I can keep time, irregardless of what the bass player is doing. I can lose the charts anytime." Fact or fiction? I keep asking him "Next week, lets see if you can play ten songs on your own without the charts." It never happens.

 

[BlueStrat]

 

it cracks me up to hear rockers talk about not reading as some sort of sign of professionalism.

 

 

Among rockers, it is a sign of professionalism. I don't know if you listened to the tracks, but the guy isn't exactly Steve Gadd, bouncing from session to sesion and gig to gig as a hired gun. He's the foundation of a rock band, it's his main gig, and as such, ought to know the material in his sleep.

[ckcondon]

Charts after 6 months?
I know over a hundred songs I can play right now if you call them out at a gig.
Never written a chart and learn songs by ear. Put on the headphones, learn the parts, internalize the correct tempo and play. Not really too tough. If he's expecting to "learn" the songs by just charting them, he's gonna struggle the whole way. You can't chart feel, especially with funk! He's not putting in the effort needed to learn the material.
This drummer is way too high-maintenance for what you want.

CC

[Outrider]

Charts after 6 months? I know over a hundred songs I can play right now if you call them out at a gig. Never written a chart and learn songs by ear. Put on the headphones, learn the parts, internalize the correct tempo and play. Not really too tough.

 

 

Seriously. If a drummer (or any musician, really) can't pull off a song that they *should* know...either because it's been on the to-do list or because its been a 20-yr radio staple...then they're not suited for the kind of work that a band (esp. a cover band) is called to do. Handling improvised changes and (gasp) requests with confidence is a requirement, IMHO.

[strathound]

All I can offer at this time (until I listen to the drummer) is this. Be careful of making changes to a band based on an audition. You have no gaurantees with this guy. You don't have a history with him. Who knows? You might drop the drummer and then get dropped yourself when the lead singer finds a guitar player he likes better. What about direction too? Does he have the same commitment level? Does he want to tour? Etc.

[ckcondon]

Two things: More opinionated take: Standard8, what's this nonsense about "heart being in it"??? Are you looking for a musician or for a girlfriend?? I want a great player who uses charts. Know why? Because it means he's so in-demand that he's REALLY great. I don't care if he doesn't have time to memorize every tom fill... it cracks me up to hear rockers talk about not reading as some sort of sign of professionalism. Every classical orchestra uses charts, even when playing something as simple as "Stars and Stripes Forever". Most jazz groups use charts, whether it's a big band arrangement or a Herbie Hancock acoustic trio. "Charts = unprofessional".... you crack me up.

 

 

High end session players use charts, orchestras use charts... Bar bands who use charts do not know their material. That's what we're talking about here.

For example; Josh Freese is a great session drummer and very in-demand. He also tours with many different artists. I have never seen him perform with charts on stage. You'll see that across the board with major touring acts.

I don't see many actors walking around broadway stages with scripts in their hands. LEARN the material at rehearsal. PERFORM it live with no net.

[wades_keys]

Among rockers, it is a sign of professionalism. I don't know if you listened to the tracks, but the guy isn't exactly Steve Gadd, bouncing from session to sesion and gig to gig as a hired gun. He's the foundation of a rock band, it's his main gig, and as such, ought to know the material in his sleep.

Thanks for saying that - it's spot on.

If your drummer needs charts to play rock, he aint' a rock and roll drummer.

I've seen (good) jazz cats that couldn't play rock drums for {censored} (but they think they can...)

It's easy to criticize the apparent simplicity of rock drumming, much harder to do it well.

[coyote-1]

Yet at those very Broadway shows, EVERY musician will have in front of them.... yep you guessed it, a CHART. Because changes come down on an almost daily basis as the show develops.

I don't see many actors walking around broadway stages with scripts in their hands. Bar bands who use charts....

Given that most folk in bar bands are NOT rehearsing their parts 7 hours daily for months prior to opening night, your comparison fails. Miserably.

When I'm with one band doing the same 90-minute set for three months then indeed I can do it without a chart. But to expect that of a drummer with whom you are gigging once weekly for $100 per man is nonsense.

All that said, I do concur that a drummer ought be able to competently play Gimme Some Lovin' in his sleep without a chart.

[wades_keys]

When I'm with one band doing the same 90-minute set for three months then indeed I can do it without a chart. But to expect that of a drummer with whom you are gigging once weekly for $100 per man is nonsense.

 

Really?

 

I've been in several bands that gigged that often or less - and none of the drummer's had any problems at all playing the tunes without charts.

 

In fact, I have not seen one single rock drummer on stage in this town using charts - not one. And I've seen dozens over the years....

[GCDEF]

I've never played with a drummer that used charts. Never even heard of it in a cover band. I had a bass player who played in the symphony orchestra, our rock band, a big band, and a pops orchestra, who'd use charts for some of other work. I think most of the musicians in his other bands did, but in a rock band, never heard of it. I don't think I'd want a drummer that needed charts.

[coyote-1]

Back when I was working the wedding/clubdate circuit I also spent a couple months with a bar band. At any given wedding or corporate gig I might be asked to play any of 1000+ songs.

The bar band wanted me to know 45 songs, just enough for 3 sets. I insisted they push it to at least 70. There were a few songs they wanted to do that I did not know so I used charts; I was gigging 5-6 times weekly PLUS working during the day so I certainly did not have time to learn those songs by heart. I stopped playing with that band when the guitarist could not learn the lead to "When Will I Be Loved", and would not use a chart...

My 30+ year experience says that most folk who 'refuse' to use charts actually cannot read music. Using a chart in a rock band does not mean you're reading every note, it just means you're reminding yourself at a glance of such things as tempo and accent points.... they used to get on me about charts, even as they insisted purchasing an aural exciter was their ticket to the next level.

I've never played with a drummer that used charts. Never even heard of it in a cover band. I had a bass player who played in the symphony orchestra, our rock band, a big band, and a pops orchestra, who'd use charts for some of other work. I think most of the musicians in his other bands did, but in a rock band, never heard of it. I don't think I'd want a drummer that needed charts.

[ckcondon]

OK, then we need to discuss the difference between "hired guns" who gig constantly with many bands and people who play in ONE band with ONE setlist...

My singer uses lyric sheets in a notebook by his monitor... Drives me nuts that he spends a lot of time bent over looking for words he should know by now instead of engaging the crowd. I live with it because I realize that learning the correct lyrics to 50+ songs is more difficult that learning a bunch of 4/4 drum patterns, especially for part-timer with jobs etc.

My comparison to actors may not be perfect, but my point is that a performer needs to learn his/her part for the job they are doing.

Acoustic duos with music stands - fine, high energy rock/dance bands with notes tells me they don't know their material.

You don't have to agree, but when I walk into a bar featuring a rock band and I see music stands, I'm not impressed.

I understand the need for occasional "notes" for brand new material, but how long should it take to learn basic song structures?

Oh, and yes, I screw up sometimes like everyone else but I'm looking the audience in the eyes when I do!

[wades_keys]

My 30+ year experience says that most folk who 'refuse' to use charts actually cannot read music .

 

I don't know about that - I've known several schooled drummers who could sight read anything you dropped in front of them, that did not gig with charts.

[wades_keys]

I stopped playing with that band when the guitarist could not learn the lead to "When Will I Be Loved", and would not use a chart...

 

he should have learned his part - but there are plenty of awful transcriptions out there as well.

 

I think a musician should learn to recognize errors in charts and compensate of the fly - hell the "Real Book" is notoriously full of errors...

[Robben Trower]

All I can offer at this time (until I listen to the drummer) is this. Be careful of making changes to a band based on an audition. You have no gaurantees with this guy. You don't have a history with him. Who knows? You might drop the drummer and then get dropped yourself when the lead singer finds a guitar player he likes better. What about direction too? Does he have the same commitment level? Does he want to tour? Etc.

 

 

The more I talk to the singer, and that is every second day, the more I can see he has serious drive for music. No kids, no wife, no lock down job. We also talk about things not related to music, which is almost unheard of in my experience in this city. Maybe because he spent so much time in Europe, like me, it just makes you more sociable.

 

And we talked about touring: Europe, Japan, etc. We've both played Europe and know how good it is over there, how easy it is to find good musicians and gigs. He isn't locked down to living in Vancouver.

 

I'm definitely sticking with the singer on this one and drummers be damned if you can't keep up. As for comments on 'charts', you guys should remember that the drummer has been covering highly arranged songs originally played by the likes of Tommy Alderidge, Tom Brechtlein, Matt Abs, Cozy Powell, etc. These are not standard simple 'cover songs' you hear in the pub. I've had drummers before who tried to do this stuff, and they simplify a lot. The current drummer charts it out, and tries to play it exactly the way it's written. But this is the problem. He can't play it 'smoothly' enough as written.

 

When I had an Elvis out, the drummer played about 20 Elvis songs at the drop of a hat without charts because he's played them all before. I've been throwing prog rock at him. But I still think that there comes a time when you should lose the charts. I'd be embarressed to play anything by charts. That just proves I have no memory retention. I don't care if it is sixty songs. I can learn that in two weeks.

 

I'm going to start auditioning more drummers. Can't hurt.

[rodclement]

In my duo I always have a music stand with all my lyrics to the side, so does the guitar player, we are an acoustic duo and not a jumping rock band.

I do it not because I can't memorize the lyrics but for comfort since we do 3 to 4 new songs every week as requested by patrons and with a full time job and wife + kid, I spend my time working on singing the song and getting the breathing points, inflections, etc more so than memorizing the lyrics. I also have a hard time memorizing things, not only lyrics so...I use the stand even tought I rarely read the lyrics, sometimes knowing they are there gives me a level of security that I enjoy!

The issue is not if someone is reading or not, but if they can play/sing well and can get the job done, regardless of how they are doing it, if the drummer in question is not good, I don't care if he reads, sleeps, eats, wathever, if he is not good, change him!

Rod

[Honky-Tonk]

I don't know why everyone is so hung up on something as superficial as charts on stage. The point should be focused on whether the guy can play, and after listening to the examples provided, the guy is attempting to play beyond his abilities and his technique is suffering. Who cares if he has a music degree, he is not providing what the band needs to rock out the crowd, a solid rhythym section. Maybe the songs are new and complex, but the most important thing to learn as a performer is that playing something simple, and playing it well, is more impressive to the audience than trying to play something that is complicated, and giving a weak performance. If the crowd is enjoying themselves they aren't going to notice that the drummer is playing really easy stuff.

[Hawkeye]

Remember he is black and they have dance in their blood. He knows what it takes to make a crowd dance and probably has lots of feedback from working the crowd.

 

 

As B Money has already pointed out. Wow.

[Hawkeye]

I don't know why everyone is so hung up on something as superficial as charts on stage. The point should be focused on whether the guy can play, and after listening to the examples provided, the guy is attempting to play beyond his abilities and his technique is suffering..

 

 

I presume that whoever has a problem with charts onstage also decries the teleprompters used by big national acts. They just happen to have them integrated into their stage or monitor set-up so that they're unobtrusive compared to a music stand. A lot of chart use is fine as long as the performer doesn't have their noses buried in them for much of the performance while ignoring the audience. As long as the musician can play with taste, groove, and feel I don't care if they use charts.

 

A saxophonist who I play a lot with uses charts for every song, even for solos, but he sounds very natural and plays with feel while doing it. So what?

[Robben Trower]

I don't know why everyone is so hung up on something as superficial as charts on stage. The point should be focused on whether the guy can play, and after listening to the examples provided, the guy is attempting to play beyond his abilities and his technique is suffering. Who cares if he has a music degree, he is not providing what the band needs to rock out the crowd, a solid rhythym section. Maybe the songs are new and complex, but the most important thing to learn as a performer is that playing something simple, and playing it well, is more impressive to the audience than trying to play something that is complicated, and giving a weak performance. If the crowd is enjoying themselves they aren't going to notice that the drummer is playing really easy stuff.

 

 

I think you nailed it on the drum head. He enjoys trying to learn these songs, as they are much more challenging than what he has played on cruise ships for years, but he just can't master the subtleties with authority. As much as I really wanted to play with someone who could mimic really good players and the more complex songs, playing simpler material may be the way to go. Just because he can write out charts of the songs doesn't make him a master of playing what's on the chart.