Liner Notes

[Deeprig9]

Ultimate Pay-To-Play

 

Here's the deal... right now the band is putting together the liner notes for our album. All the lyrics are written by 2 of the members. Most of the arranging (chords) is also done by the same 2 members. As far as hooks, it's pretty much split up evenly by all 5 members.

 

Right now, the 2 members that have done the most are putting their names specifically on each song respective to which ones they wrote, mostly cowrote. But my understanding is that the whole band pretty much fleshes out each song, the two members will have some basic chord structures and ideas that eventually evolves as the band practices, with input from everyone. I think lyrically, they do deserve 99% of the credit. And some songs, the final product is basically exactly how they introduced the song to the band. I think credit is certainly due to them on those songs, and for all the lyrics. But where do you draw the line? Seems like alot of the songs should just be credited to the band as a whole. Obviously, there needs to be some additional conversation within the band, but I though I'd share a little here first to get some other perspectives, the conversation with the band may get heated, and I just want to make sure I don't come out of the conversation with too much egg on my face.

[Stagebandit]

This is a pretty important issue that obviously needs to get cleared up. It all comes down to who's gonna get royalties down the road, if anybody.

 

It sounds to me like the lyrics are written by those two guys and the song is arranged by the band. You could credit lyrics to those two and music to the band. Getting the songwriters to agree to this could be difficult and could be the beginning of the end for even the closest knit group.

 

Keep us posted on how it works out.

[Deeprig9]

About a year ago when we were talking about making the album, it was stated by both the two main guys that everything would be credited to the band. So you can imagine my amazement that I see a proof of the liner notes a year later and see what I see. I got my name on two of the songs, because I did write the bridge in both songs, although the verse/chorus parts are the same two cats.

 

My understanding is that the issue of royalties, like if a company used one of our songs, right off the album, we all own the performance royalty, but if the song is covered by another band or redone by musak or something, then the actual songwriter gets credit/royalty. Is there a third form of credit for arrangement? What about hooks? Although the 2 cats in charge are responsible for most of the lyrics and basic chords, all the hooks and licks that bring the song to life are pretty much split up equally between the members. Imagine Guns and Roses song Sweet Child O Mine, if Axle wrote all the lyrics and chords, but Slash is the one with the hooks and licks, he should get credit on the song too, right?

[cozmicslop]

Most of the time I bring a demo to the table and allow some freedom for the band to work out their own parts.

 

To try and be fair I credit most songs like this: Lyrics=Me, Music Me + (Members of the band). This way the band shares 50% of the music.

 

So far, no complaints.

[ChordGirl]

This is an argument that comes up here once in awhile--more so in the songwriting forum.

 

In the past, I've been the primary songwriter for my original bands. I consider the songs to be mine, and I would not share credit with the entire band with what I bring to the table--> which is arranged chords with completed melody and lyrics. In other words, I could play the song out solo and it is still a distinct song. I could sing it acapella, too. By law, the only copyrightable part of the song is the melody/lyrics combo (with some exceptions that could be fought about in court, but not many--instrumentals are copyrighted by the distinctive melody only, as far as I understand it).

 

A lot of times this pisses off the rest of the band, who come up with parts to flesh out the song. You either need to get the lyric/melody writers to agree to credit the whole band (good luck) or just deal with the fact that the copyright laws are set up to give the lyric/melody writers credit for the song. My thinking was always, if you want the credit, bring in some melody and lyrics!!! No one ever would bring anything to the table besides me, so I just kept 'writing' all the songs, which I put an incredible amount of time into on my own outside of practices. I played a handful of my songs with three different bands and let them all make up their own parts to put behind the chords without ever letting them hear the prior versions. In other words, we played different versions of the same 5 songs in all three bands--still my songs.

 

It was never the case that we came up with songs just 'jamming,' or experimenting together as a band. I believe if that had happened, I would've felt differently, because my melody and lyrics would've been inspired by the music we all came up with. This is why it cracks me up when I see adds on craigslists looking for a vocalist that 'writes his own part.' Legally, that person will own the songs your band has be jammin' out on for six months as soon as he puts his/her own melody and lyrics on it. That may or might not stand up in court. Who knows... Either way, the guy could take away his melody/lyrics and have someone else put different music behind them.

[Deeprig9]

That's a great point, Chordgirl. And in a situation where the other members are hired guns for live and for studio work, and paid, that makes sense. When, over the last year, you've not been paid, you've invested alot of your own time and money into the band, then find out you are getting left out of royalties, it's a little hard to swallow.

[Deeprig9]

Update: Sent out an email suggesting an agreement where the whole band splits everything equally that the album or any of it's songs make. Also suggested that any royalties paid from covers or musak or something like that should go to the respective songwriter.

[ChordGirl]

If I was in your situation, I'd be upset, too. I hope you all work it out without too many problems.

 

Remember, for each song you have performance royalties, too. If your song gets to the point where you'll have to think about royalties, you will get a chunk of that, regardless, because you played on the recording. I can't remember all the specifics, but I do know the songwriting forum has a lot of that info.

[Deeprig9]

 

Update: Sent out an email suggesting an agreement where the whole band splits everything equally that the album or any of it's songs make. Also suggested that any royalties paid from covers or musak or something like that should go to the respective songwriter.

 

 

 

agreed, performance royalty, etc.

 

THanks yall!

[THBv2.0]

My band has in our contract that monies will be spilt into 6 equal parts for the 4 of us. 1 part goes to the lyric writer, 1 to the music writer and 1 part each for each player for coming with their part.

 

It's a pretty industry standard arrangement.

[Deeprig9]

Just to be assholes, the rest of us are showing up at the next practice with price lists in our back pocket. When the song stops, and the question is asked "What's the deal? Why didn't you do the lick there?" I'm going to say "You didn't write the song with that lick. Let me check my price list. Ok, Night Licks are at a premium, but if you buy 10, the 11th is free, and you get free stage presence. This deal is running all summer." And we've got other smart ass comments in store too.

 

"Is your guitar {censored}ed up? Why didn't you play the solo?"

 

"You didn't write a solo."

[THBv2.0]

Just to be assholes, the rest of us are showing up at the next practice with price lists in our back pocket. When the song stops, and the question is asked "What's the deal? Why didn't you do the lick there?" I'm going to say "You didn't write the song with that lick. Let me check my price list. Ok, Night Licks are at a premium, but if you buy 10, the 11th is free, and you get free stage presence. This deal is running all summer." And we've got other smart ass comments in store too. "Is your guitar {censored}ed up? Why didn't you play the solo?" "You didn't write a solo."

 

 

 

I hope their senses of humor is as good as you hope they are.

 

 

[Deeprig9]

Here's an email I got from one of the two leaders..... not sure how sarcastic it is...

 

 

No. This is wholly incorrect. Performance royalties are paid to the songwriter, not to Joe Schmoe who played guitar, or Shauna, or any goddamned person other than the songwriter. I have no idea where you got the idea that anyone who played on a given track is entitled to performance royalties. You can let me in on that. Songwriter and publisher, period. Anyone who feels they wrote part of a song can speak up. Performance royalties are like anything else--the writer of a song gets them. If you like John Mayer, you can work for him. You should check with ASCAP about the status of your new project.

 

[ChordGirl]

I hope someone else chimes in here.

 

It is quite possible that I'm totally wrong about this. What I specifically remember about music is that you copyright lyrics and melody, and you also copyright specific versions of the song. I thought the reasoning behind the latter was that the performers of the song got paid a percentage every time their version was played on the radio, as well as the original writer of the song. Surely there is someone who can tell me I'm full of {censored} on this besides your 'buddy' from your band. Tomorrow, I'll look it up.

 

If not, how do people like Britany Spears make money from radio play singing other people's songs? Maybe performance royalties is the wrong term.

[Deeprig9]

I hope someone else chimes in here. It is quite possible that I'm totally wrong about this. What I specifically remember about music is that you copyright lyrics and melody, and you also copyright specific versions of the song. I thought the reasoning behind the latter was that the performers of the song got paid a percentage every time their version was played on the radio, as well as the original writer of the song. Surely there is someone who can tell me I'm full of {censored} on this besides your 'buddy' from your band. Tomorrow, I'll look it up. If not, how do people like Britany Spears make money from radio play singing other people's songs? Maybe performance royalties is the wrong term.

 

"Mechanical Royalty" was a term that was tossed around.

 

 

Everyone in the band including one of the main cats, 4/5 of the band agree with my proposal I posted. This is the response from the other cat.

 

I'm a dog person.

 

(picture taken tonight without consent)

 

 

[mikeman]

I remember that John Fogerty of CCR wrote a bunch of songs with the band. When he went on his own, he wrote more songs. Well he was sued by the band saying some of his songs had the same chords and sound as CCr songs. I don't remember the outcome on this either. From what I remember in song writing class, you can't copyright a song title.

 

I think if you come with a finished song, then it is yours, but if you come with lyrics and an idea of the music and the band kicks in and helps, everyone shares.

[gtrjones]

Royalties are often very confusing to many people.

 

When a radio station (or anyone) broadcasts a song (includes it in a TV show, or commercial) they pay royalties. When a record (CD) is pressed, the record company pays royalties to 'license' their use of those particular versions of the song (mechanical royalty).

 

The songwriter gets the broadcast royalties (performance), and the mechanical royalty goes to whoever owns the recording. If the band collectively paid for the recordings, then the band splits the mechanicals.

 

If you really want to protect yourself, get a couple books on the subject, or go talk to an attorney. But 'adding a lick' does NOT typically automatically earn a songwriting credit. And this is DEFINATELY something that should be discussed in every band, probably before a single penny is spent on recordings.

[SunRaFan]

As I understand it, what gtrjones wrote is basically correct.

 

From a practical standpoint, I think you are probably arguing about how to split $0.

[BlueStrat]

I hope someone else chimes in here. It is quite possible that I'm totally wrong about this. What I specifically remember about music is that you copyright lyrics and melody, and you also copyright specific versions of the song. I thought the reasoning behind the latter was that the performers of the song got paid a percentage every time their version was played on the radio, as well as the original writer of the song. Surely there is someone who can tell me I'm full of {censored} on this besides your 'buddy' from your band. Tomorrow, I'll look it up. If not, how do people like Britany Spears make money from radio play singing other people's songs? Maybe performance royalties is the wrong term.

You can copyright the song itself, both lyrics and/or melody, and you can copyright the sound recording itself.

 

I've never been a fan of "everyone gets a share" simply because of the huge can of worms you are opening yourself up to.

 

 

What do you do if a song hits and some huge Industrial Widget Corp wants to buy the exclusive rights to it for an ad campaign, and two or even one guy doesn't want "his" music used that way? Or a guy quits/gets fired and demands you stop using songs he helped write? Or he joins another band and wants to perform and record then same songs you do?

 

I appreciate the "we're all in this together' mentality, I really do, but if there's one thing I've learned over the years is that joint ownership of anything in a band-equipment, transportation or music-can and often does at some point become very messy. I'm for keeping it simple.

 

If someone comes up with a bass line, or a guitar riff, or a horn line, whatever-that's still not writing, it's arranging. Otherwise, what would stop anyone from changing parts in, say, a Beatles tune and claiming part authorship?

 

The test is whether you can change the bass line, guitar riff, horn part, or eliminate them altogether, and still have a recognizable song. If so, it's arranging, not writing.

 

Oh, and FWIW, you don't automatically get paid a royalty every time you song is played on the radio. You have to have each song registered with a PRO, and it has to be tracked. I have had lots of my songs played on specialty shows (blues shows, local artist spotlights, unsigned bands shows) on lots of stations across the lower 48 and not been paid a dime. When you send them your disc, they are offering you airplay for promotional value. If you get into regular rotation, then you may well earn.

[MartinC]

Just playing your part does not entitle you to royalties, even if you came up with the part. It's sticky when you've spent your time and energy but have no writing credits. You can ask that the band give you some credit or they can remove all your playing from the cd, unless you signed a release. Probably not something you want to do. A cd I played on years ago finally came out a few months ago. My playing is all over it, and I wrote a lot of parts, including the entire melody of one song. No credits. I was asked to sign a release without being compensated.. I didn't. I could make a stink, but I think I'll wait to see if they actually sell enough of them to make any difference before starting a fight with former band mates. Unlikely. Another thing is who gets the money from the cd itself? All this stuff should be worked out before, but it often isn't.

 

 

 

 

 

Ultimate Pay-To-Play Here's the deal... right now the band is putting together the liner notes for our album. All the lyrics are written by 2 of the members. Most of the arranging (chords) is also done by the same 2 members. As far as hooks, it's pretty much split up evenly by all 5 members. Right now, the 2 members that have done the most are putting their names specifically on each song respective to which ones they wrote, mostly cowrote. But my understanding is that the whole band pretty much fleshes out each song, the two members will have some basic chord structures and ideas that eventually evolves as the band practices, with input from everyone. I think lyrically, they do deserve 99% of the credit. And some songs, the final product is basically exactly how they introduced the song to the band. I think credit is certainly due to them on those songs, and for all the lyrics. But where do you draw the line? Seems like alot of the songs should just be credited to the band as a whole. Obviously, there needs to be some additional conversation within the band, but I though I'd share a little here first to get some other perspectives, the conversation with the band may get heated, and I just want to make sure I don't come out of the conversation with too much egg on my face.

 

[Chicken Monkey]

I am the sole songwriter in my current band. It is looking unlikely that we will ever get it together enough to put a record out, but if we do, I'm making this offer--

 

Any sales of the album (we could probably move about 500 units in a year) would be split equally after costs are recouped. It's a homebrew project, so costs are minimal.

 

Any use of my songs (not the band's recording of my song), though extremely unlikely, would be paid for to me exclusively.

 

This is more generous than the law requires. Coming up with a bass line or harmony part, under current definitions, is not writing the song. If you aren't happy with that, start writing melody or lyrics. If you can't manage that, then have some respect for those who can, and give credit, financial and otherwise, where it is due.

[kurfu]

Melody & Lyrics == song

 

Deciding to play a certain riff on the guitar or hit the drums a certain way is simply embellishment to the song, and *generally* not considered to be part of the writing of the actual song.

[ChordGirl]

Thank you for clearing that up a bit, gentlemen.

[BATCAT]

In my band I avoid the potential drama and just credit things as:

 

Lyrics by: me

Music by: me/other guy/other guy/other guy

 

I'm aware that, say, a drum part and some help with arranging does not traditionally warrant a songwriting credit, but as a gesture of goodwill I'm happy to extend songwriting credits to all "official" band members who play on a given song. Actually this is not not that uncommon.

[Chicken Monkey]

I'm aware that, say, a drum part and some help with arranging does not traditionally warrant a songwriting credit, but as a gesture of goodwill I'm happy to extend songwriting credits to all "official" band members who play on a given song. Actually this is not not that uncommon.

 

It's not a bad move, and I've given credit where someone provided a key chord progression, even though that's not legally songwriting. For the most part, I bring the song in fully-formed.