Members stratotastic Posted March 8, 2009 Members Share Posted March 8, 2009 Interesting thing developing--I'm being tapped to be a "side man" for the first time ever in my 25+ years of playing. Basically this singer/songwriter dude wants me to play guitar for him in his backing band. He just really got started with his originals in earnest about a year ago. I've done a couple acoustic duo gigs for him so far (paid for one, not the other; no rehearsals beforehand), will be doing more of those at an already agreed-upon rate, and have a couple upcoming rehearsals as a full electric band for a bunch of Spring/Summer shows. He's asked for creative input into his tunes, at least as far as trusting me to come up with my own guitar parts, but he does all the songwriting and obviously he has veto power--I'm fine with that. He's an overall cool guy with what I think is great upside so I dig playing with him. So what are the differences I should know about in being a side man vs. being a full-share band member? What is a reasonable amount to expect to get paid for gigs--like some %age of the total take, or a flat rate? Should I expect to get paid for rehearsals? Are there any particular etiquette things I should know about? Last, he's actually auditioning to be the singer in my cover band. I'm wondering if there's any risk of changing the dynamic at all, like mixing business with pleasure or whatever. Sorry if these are naive questions--just never been down this road before. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scafeets Posted March 8, 2009 Members Share Posted March 8, 2009 With him auditioning to be in your band, this gives you an elegant opening to discuss pay and all the other issues. There are a number of ways to go and no set standards when you're the sideman, so it's up to you to tell him what you expect. Likewise, being a lead singer doesn't automatically entitle him to a full band share. (Just ask Sammy Hagar!). There are variables like who books the band, owns the PA, host the rehearsals, pays for the promo, etc. Go with what you feel comfortable with -- it's a lot easier to set the parameters early on, especially if you're talking about original music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srsfallriver Posted March 8, 2009 Members Share Posted March 8, 2009 If he's hiring you, then he sets the terms and you either agree to them or not. If you agree to them, then you have to make sure he doesn't put one over on you. I've been in that position before and had both bad and good experiences. Most experiences were good. One group paid me $100 for local gigs (within 20 miles) and $200 outside of that range, I didn't have to attend rehearsals and I didn't have to spend any time in the studio. I also paid no band expenses - I just had to show up for gigs prepared. I agreed and everything went as expected. Another group had six members. When hired, I was told that gig money was going to be split seven ways - the seventh cut went towards band expenses. Also there was talk of recording a new CD (the band already had several). I was told that I was expected to help with writing and arranging and I had to spend time recording in the studio. The CD was just for promotion of the band and would be paid for by money from the "seventh cut". I was told, I'd never make less than $120 per gig. I also had to attend two rehearsals per week. There were two band leaders that hired four of us under these terms. I soon learned that I never made more than $120 per gig. After the CD was made, I noticed the bandleaders were selling copies. I also quickly found out that they were charging $1500 to $2000 per gig. This band gigged more and sounded better than any other band I had ever been with and it was still better money than anything else I could find at the time but I hated the fact that I was being lied to. So I quit. Another bad experience was when I was hired to do one gig. Luckily I had to sign a contract to get it. I did everything expected of me but then the check never showed up. After months of chasing the guy, I went to small claims court. He didn't show for the trial and, by law, had to pay. The check finally came in two weeks later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boxorox Posted March 9, 2009 Members Share Posted March 9, 2009 srsfallriver puts the poins out well. If you're getting paid satisfactorily, you have no comittments or responsibility beyond showing up. If success comes your way, you can renegotiate to a higher pay or percentage. Band #2 story- If you're asked to do business, contribute creatively and to band expenses, don't settle for a sideman's pay. Sidemen don't invest in the band with no contract specifying return. Sidemen don't carry PA or other people's equipment. If he get's the position with your band, things could be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Interesting thing developing--I'm being tapped to be a "side man" for the first time ever in my 25+ years of playing. Basically this singer/songwriter dude wants me to play guitar for him in his backing band. He just really got started with his originals in earnest about a year ago. I've done a couple acoustic duo gigs for him so far (paid for one, not the other; no rehearsals beforehand), will be doing more of those at an already agreed-upon rate, and have a couple upcoming rehearsals as a full electric band for a bunch of Spring/Summer shows. He's asked for creative input into his tunes, at least as far as trusting me to come up with my own guitar parts, but he does all the songwriting and obviously he has veto power--I'm fine with that. He's an overall cool guy with what I think is great upside so I dig playing with him. So what are the differences I should know about in being a side man vs. being a full-share band member? What is a reasonable amount to expect to get paid for gigs--like some %age of the total take, or a flat rate? Should I expect to get paid for rehearsals? Are there any particular etiquette things I should know about?Last, he's actually auditioning to be the singer in my cover band. I'm wondering if there's any risk of changing the dynamic at all, like mixing business with pleasure or whatever.Sorry if these are naive questions--just never been down this road before.Thanks in advance. It really depends on what you agree to play for. Some people don't mind playing for free (where, at the very least, you're losing money on transportation so it's actually costing you money), as long as they get to be in a creative situation. For me, the money is inversely related to creative freedom. If someone wants me to help contribute to their songs, but they aren't paying much if anything, I would want a LOT of freedom. If they want to basically be a dictator, saying "play this part...no, no, only in THAT spot...right, you got it now," then they better fork over some good cash for me to put up with that kind of attitude. Most people that I know of don't pay others for band rehearsals. At the very least, you could ask for $5 each rehearsal to cover gas. And I'd ask for at least $50 to perform for the person at the actual show. He might offer $20 and you'll have to decide if it's worth taking all your stuff out for 20 bucks. I'm assuming this is for a 40-60 minute set of originals or something. If it's a cover band that sprinkles originals throughout the night and plays the typical 4-5 set gig, I wouldn't play for less than a hundred a night. I'd put the auditions on hold for right now as far as him being a singer for your band. If you work for him first in his original band, you would already establish that he is "the Man" in that project. I think it may be difficult for him to change that perception, especially if he's joining your band after you joined his. A friend of mine gradually changed like that. In the beginning, we were co-lead singers and respected each other. Near the end of our on-again, off-again collaborations, he treated me more like I was his backup musician (few solos, mostly singing harmony, mostly playing keyboards instead of guitar). I didn't care for that too much and I played less and less with (for?) him over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SunRaFan Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 I'm in a similar situation. I play lead guitar with a singer/songwriter. I have creative input, but he writes all of the songs and sets the overall direction. Sometimes I'm treated like a band member, sometimes it's more like being a sideman. All of the money we get goes back into band expenses so nobody is actually making anything. If the plan is to do mainly 40-60 minute gigs paired with other original bands, don't expect to consistently get paid even $20 unless the leader is willing to take losses and pay you out of pocket. There's another singer/songwriter who's had some local success and great local press in my area who has a band made up of side musicians who do expect to be paid. The guy almost always gigs solo. A few times a year, he uses the side musicians and I'm pretty sure he winds up losing money just about every time because he has to pay more to pay the band than he gets from the venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boxorox Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Thought of an old story. Bill Monroe ( and a lot of the other old country dudes) used to hire their bands on salary. You got paid regular whether you played or not. As a consequence, you worked for Mr. Monroe. If you weren't touring, you'd play the Opry Saturday night, but on Monday morning you'd be at his farm bailing hay, tending cattle, digging post holes. That'll put things in perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Philbigtime Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Thought of an old story. Bill Monroe ( and a lot of the other old country dudes) used to hire their bands on salary. You got paid regular whether you played or not. As a consequence, you worked for Mr. Monroe. If you weren't touring, you'd play the Opry Saturday night, but on Monday morning you'd be at his farm bailing hay, tending cattle, digging post holes. That'll put things in perspective. I would so be down for that kind of setup. Seriously. First of all, I don't mind working outdoors one bit, and it would probably be with your bandmates, helping build comraderie. And you get a salary? Sign me up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stratotastic Posted March 10, 2009 Author Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Thanks for the insights so far. Very helpful info. To address some of the things that have been raised... He's offered me a very good rate for acoustic duo stuff already (mostly covers, maybe 1/3 originals). We haven't negotiated on the electric stuff yet, but my experience with him so far is that he's willing to pay us out-of-pocket if need be. But I guess I shouldn't expect too much for the full band stuff. We haven't rehearsed for real yet, so thanks for the heads-up on the pay-to-rehearse situation. I just wasn't sure whether it is out of line to ask for payment for that if he doesn't offer. I'll just lay low on that. Also, I won't really know how much creative input he's expecting till we actually do rehearse, but the couple of live shows we've done so far, he's basically told me he trusts me to do what I feel, and is good about mentioning afterward what he thought worked and what we might want to change in the future. Yeah, him auditioning for us will be interesting. We're a cover band just getting ready to launch, so it's not like he'd be jumping into a years-long established project with a ton of clout. In fact, he probably has more connections than the rest of us combined (the rest of us are a bunch of transplants), so he'd be a huge asset in that respect. Actually, having a family, busy job, etc, I may actually enjoy stepping away from being the alpha and letting someone else do all the work... Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Roy Brooks Posted March 10, 2009 Members Share Posted March 10, 2009 Folks call me with gigs they would like for me to play. They tell me where it is at, what time to be there, and what I will be getting paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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