Need harmony tips...

[mstreck]

None of us are very good at doing harmony "on the fly", but we're trying to add some to a few songs. Any tips on doing this efficiently and effectively?

 

Thanks!

 

Mike

[Chicken Monkey]

Easiest is "Keith Richards" style--find the high note on the song's tonal root (i.e., sing a G on a song in the key of G). This works over the I and the IV, then just go up or down a note (to the F# or A in G) for the V. That'll get you started, and it's hard to get wrong. From there, it's all about practice and ear training.

[mstreck]

 

Easiest is "Keith Richards" style--find the high note on the song's tonal root (i.e., sing a G on a song in the key of G). This works over the I and the IV, then just go up or down a note (to the F# or A in G) for the V. That'll get you started, and it's hard to get wrong. From there, it's all about practice and ear training.

 

 

I think that's awesome! Thank you!

[svejkist]

Harmony Central indeed.

[dan88z]

Listen to the original recordings and pick out the important parts, and figure out how to work them into your vocal capabilities. Neither me nor my drummer can sing super high, so we figure out parts that are usually singing underneath what our girl singer does. We can get a nice full 3 part harmony going that way.

 

Usually something in the range of a 3rd above the melody works well too. Figure out what she's singing, and then pick out a part on guitar that goes along with that and then sing along with the notes you figure out until you have it down.

[joshmac]

alot of my practice when I was first starting came from harmonizing with my guitar. Do you have a firm understanding of intervals?

[mstreck]

 

Listen to the original recordings and pick out the important parts, and figure out how to work them into your vocal capabilities. Neither me nor my drummer can sing super high, so we figure out parts that are usually singing underneath what our girl singer does. We can get a nice full 3 part harmony going that way. Usually something in the range of a 3rd above the melody works well too. Figure out what she's singing, and then pick out a part on guitar that goes along with that and then sing along with the notes you figure out until you have it down.

 

 

Thanks! We're not that strong vocally so we've been sticking to 3rds/5ths (easier to hear/feel when playing the chord). Through trial and error, we find that sometimes it works well but sometimes it just sounds lame (although not incorrect). I never really considered changing what we were doing according to the chord degree - maybe trying 6ths, etc. That gives me something to explore - although that will probably be a bit more time consuming.

[dan88z]

Sometimes when you get too big of an interval it doesn't sound right, even though in theory, it's correct. 5ths can do that, or if you sing a 6th below (so it's the 3rd, but an octave down) that can sound strange too, without that 3rd part filling in the middle. I wouldn't worry about singing anything more than 3rds/minor 3rds and 5ths in 3 parts unless the song calls for it. Singing a 6th will give you the Andrew's Sisters effect which while cool, isn't always appropriate for a rock band. flatted 7ths will work if the rest of the harmony tones are good underneath, like singing the G-B-D of an Em7 chord, but singing the E-G-Bb of a C7 can sound kinda barbershop.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, don't overcomplicate it!

[mstreck]

 

alot of my practice when I was first starting came from harmonizing with my guitar. Do you have a firm understanding of intervals?

 

 

I do. Dave does. We both have a decent grasp of theory. The others don't.

 

FYI - I have the weakest vocals. Dave's is probably next, then Dan. Jim (drummer) doesn't have a mic, although he wants to start doing backups.

[MDLMUSIC]

Digitech Vocalist Live 2, 3, 4 or 5.

 

It's what I use in my trio where I'm the only singer.

 

OK, it's sort of cheating, but I can get away with it since I'm the only singer. When I work with other bands, I do a lot of harmony backups, usually a simple third above the lead vocal. Seems to work pretty much all the time.

 

In one of the oldies bands I often gig with, we usually have a practice or two before the gig just to tighten up the doo-wop harmonies that we do. Just 4 guys sitting in a circle with an acoustic guitar.

[mstreck]

 

Sometimes when you get too big of an interval it doesn't sound right, even though in theory, it's correct. 5ths can do that, or if you sing a 6th below (so it's the 3rd, but an octave down) that can sound strange too, without that 3rd part filling in the middle. I wouldn't worry about singing anything more than 3rds/minor 3rds and 5ths in 3 parts unless the song calls for it. Singing a 6th will give you the Andrew's Sisters effect which while cool, isn't always appropriate for a rock band. flatted 7ths will work if the rest of the harmony tones are good underneath, like singing the G-B-D of an Em7 chord, but singing the E-G-Bb of a C7 can sound kinda barbershop. I guess what I'm saying is, don't overcomplicate it!

 

 

Thanks, we're definitely shooting for simple, yet trying to get the most bang for our buck. We've found that what sounds cool acapella can sometimes suck butt in context. Mostly, we've been following the adage "bad harmony is worse than no harmony".

[mstreck]

 

Digitech Vocalist Live 2, 3, 4 or 5.

 

 

Haha! That's actually why we want to do this for real. Our VL2 sounds like a schizophrenic chipmunk with Amy's high voice - even if it is set to "go lower". At best, we can use it as a doubler, but that's it.

[dan88z]

 

Thanks, we're definitely shooting for simple, yet trying to get the most bang for our buck. We've found that what sounds cool acapella can sometimes suck butt in context. Mostly, we've been following the adage "bad harmony is worse than no harmony".

 

 

I'd tend to disagree with that, unfortunately, due to experience! A great solo part is better than a bad harmony. One good harmony is better than 2 bad ones. Quality over quantity! My hippy band can pull of some notoriously bad harmonies at times, so we tend not to try a bunch. It all depends on who is singing, and who is singing where. We can also do some pretty nice sounding stuff. With BKS, there are a lot of songs we let our singer just go on and simplify the harmonies or eliminate them if we can't make them sound good. To me, bad vocals is the worst thing you can put out to an audience, because even people with no training can tell when a vocal doesnt' sound right.

[mstreck]

I'd tend to disagree with that, unfortunately, due to experience! A great solo part is better than a bad harmony. One good harmony is better than 2 bad ones. Quality over quantity! My hippy band can pull of some notoriously bad harmonies at times, so we tend not to try a bunch. It all depends on who is singing, and who is singing where. We can also do some pretty nice sounding stuff. With BKS, there are a lot of songs we let our singer just go on and simplify the harmonies or eliminate them if we can't make them sound good. To me, bad vocals is the worst thing you can put out to an audience, because even people with no training can tell when a vocal doesnt' sound right.

 

I think you just agreed with me.

[Chicken Monkey]

I forgot that you had a female singer. Another approach is "back-up" as opposed to "harmony" singing. This is the mid-period Beatles ooh-ahh type singing, and it's a good way to add harmonic color under a higher vocal. To arrange these types of vocals for two singers, I'll usually start by pulling two notes from the chord you're playing. For a G, say, I might do the one and three, G and B. You and the other guy "ooh" on those notes, or work out a rhythm ("ooh la la", etc.). Then just work out the minimal amount of movement to get to each chord. When you go to a C chord from G, the guy singing the B just goes up a pitch while the guy on G stays there. These one-step movements are usually pretty easy to do as long as you can hear yourself. For a D, the two of you could go up (A and C, the 5 and 7 of the D chord) or down (F# and A) one note each. For Em, you could stay on G and B. You can get more complicated from there.

 

When I was starting, I'd find "anchor pitches" in the song near where I needed to start the harmony part. If I needed to start on a C, I'd pick out a C in the melody, match it off-mic, and then be ready to hit it when it came in.

[pickinatit]

 

Haha! That's actually why we want to do this for real. Our VL2 sounds like a schizophrenic chipmunk with Amy's high voice - even if it is set to "go lower". At best, we can use it as a doubler, but that's it.

 

 

The Digitech harmonizers take a lot of tweaking to get them right, but the end result can be well worth it. There is a gazillion post thread about it somewhere in the "craig Anderson's sound studio and stage" forum that has tons of info regarding settings etc. One trick is to set the harmonizer for Male voices if the lead singer is female and vice versa (although to be honest with you I don't recall if the VL2 gives you those options.) I have the VL4 and it sounds great with the right singer input. The quality of the harmonies is SO, SO dependent on the quality/strength of the singer input though that my current band ( somewhat weak in the vocal area) can't really make much use of it either.

[Outrider]

Once you find the notes/intervals, and match them to the most appropriate voices, the planning is done. After that, it's about *listening.*

 

You can't just hit the note...you have to listen to the other singers to make sure you're singing in tune with each other cleanly and blending...keeping the vowels sounds the same, syncing your diction, & cutting off notes at the same time. Bare-bones acoustic vocals-only practice gets you listening to the details and really hearing each other. It's the difference between doing it OK and really gettting it tight.

[mstreck]

 

The Digitech harmonizers take a lot of tweaking to get them right, but the end result can be well worth it. There is a gazillion post thread about it somewhere in the "craig Anderson's sound studio and stage" forum that has tons of info regarding settings etc. One trick is to set the harmonizer for Male voices if the lead singer is female and vice versa (although to be honest with you I don't recall if the VL2 gives you those options.) I have the VL4 and it sounds great with the right singer input. The quality of the harmonies is SO, SO dependent on the quality/strength of the singer input though that my current band ( somewhat weak in the vocal area) can't really make much use of it either.

 

 

No option to change voices. Simply "high" and "higher" and "low" and "lower" - which I once assumed were 3rds and 5ths, although I've found that they are not.

 

The purchase was knee-jerk, at best. We should have saved up for the VL4.

[WynnD]

rehearsing the harmony parts while being accompanied by a very low volume guitar helps. Once you mentally lock in a part, the volume becomes less important.

[dan88z]

I think you just agreed with me.

 

You're right- I did agree with you! But I thought I had disagreed. I guess it's the same as yesterday's math!

[mstreck]

You're right- I did agree with you! But I thought I had disagreed. I guess it's the same as yesterday's math!

 

[mstreck]

rehearsing the harmony parts while being accompanied by a very low volume guitar helps. Once you mentally lock in a part, the volume becomes less important.

 

Absolutely! I can find notes the easiest when playing my acoustic - but that may be because of how they resonate while the guitar body is against me as I play the chord.

 

Execution is another matter. On some songs it's easy and I can hear the note in my head LONG before we get to that part. But on others, I seem to have a hard time recalling the pitch later. I guess that will come in time for those of us who aren't instant "naturals". Just another reason that I don't ever call myself a real "musician".

 

Thanks for the tips, guys! Much appreciated!!!!

[MDLMUSIC]

 

Haha! That's actually why we want to do this for real. Our VL2 sounds like a schizophrenic chipmunk with Amy's high voice - even if it is set to "go lower". At best, we can use it as a doubler, but that's it.

 

 

I'm surprised to hear this, since I use the VL2 and it does a great job. I only ever set it so the harmony is the next step higher than my lead voice (which is usually a third, depending on the chord I'm playing), but, then again, I'm a baritone, so I have no idea what it might do to a higher voice.

 

I have thought of upgrading to a VL3 so I could do more intricate harmonies by presetting them and changing with the footswitch, but it's a lot of money I can't spare right now to replace something that still seems to be doing a pretty good job.

[SeniorBlues]

 

. . . I seem to have a hard time recalling the pitch later. I guess that will come in time for those of us who aren't instant "naturals".

 

 

We've worked out some nice parts, only to have them vanish into the ether the next time we rehearse the song. We literally almost broke up the band because of this. Now we're planning on recording multi-track vocals, then making custom mp3 clips of the chorus of each of these songs with each person getting a copy with his part recorded louder than the rest.

 

Listen to them in the car on the way to work . . . over and over and over and . . . .

[JohnMCA72]

A harmony is a melody in its own right. It complements the main melody, but is fully capable of standing on its own. The trick is to find it (the "secondary" melody) rather than just trying to "follow" the main melody with some tonal offset. Find it, learn it, & practice it, even by itself. Understanding the harmony melody in its own right, & learning to sing it stand-alone, helps prevent those awkward situations where you end up just doubling the lead singer.

 

A simiple offset of a 3rd or 5th isn't always appropriate (although they can often be gotten away with). Sometimes the harmony melody(ies) follow a completely different melodic path than the main melody. For example, Harmony 1 & Harmony 2 might each track a constant pitch, 3rd & 5th respectively to the base chord, while the main melody moves up & down the scale. Or, maybe they both shift pitch 1/2-step, one up & the other down, at a chord change. Sometimes climbing the scale while the main melody descends is an effective harmony.

 

The real key, though, is to think of it as its own complementary melody. I saw a 60 Minutes interview once where George Burns taught Ed Bradley how to harmonize in a matter of minutes, even though Bradley couldn't sing a lick (Bradley's comment about how he couldn't sing was what led into it in the 1st place). It might be on YouTube (everything else is) somewhere, & it might be worth looking for.