Members etcetra Posted October 30, 2011 Members Share Posted October 30, 2011 So I just got this gig ($150 for 2 songs worth).. but like expected,it seems like the person in charge and some of the musicians I am working with are they really know what they are doing or professional about things. They've been really flaky about booking rehearsal time and what not. This is the sheet music they sent me. http://www.cifras.com.br/teclado/zeca-pagodinho/lua-de-ogum Here's what I wrote in response "I am sorry to say this, but the sheet music/link sent me is really badly written, as it does not show where each measure starts, and the chord changes may not be correct. I will probably need to transcribe, re-write and prepare a working chart for me and bass player(who is also not familiar with the music). Just to double check, are we performing the piece exactly like the recording form&harmony wise?" I know I am being really direct about the quality of sheet music they sent me, and that may seem offensive (especially in Asia where you are encouraged not to be too direct and say things in "nicer way") but IMO I'd rather just tell it like it is.. besides I am going to have to do extra work to prepare a working chart and I have less than 1 week to do so, so I'd rather cut to the chase. I also felt that it was important to communicate to them to make sure the singer doesn't have his/her rendition of the song that is different than the chart or the recording they sent me. It still boggles my mind that people actually think it's okay to send sheet music like this to someone they've never worked with. Personally, I make it a point to create a descent chart that is easy to read for other musicians. In most cases rehearsal times are limited and I'd rather not waste it due to poor quality of the music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members YeahDoIt Posted October 30, 2011 Members Share Posted October 30, 2011 I think it helps (a lot) to have a mp3 recording of the music. I think of these charts as a starting point, and they might not be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted October 30, 2011 Members Share Posted October 30, 2011 I think it helps (a lot) to have a mp3 recording of the music. I think of these charts as a starting point, and they might not be correct. ^ This. I'd probably take it a step further and say that you can pretty much count on them not being correct. There's usually something that ain't right ... usually something little (a missed chord .... or more likely a "guitar player" chord (i.e., a chord written as a minor that when put in context by bass note being played is in fact a Major 7th chord). I agree with you that it would be nice if the chart was correct ... however in my experience, most charts that I've seen have some flaw such that if you were to play it as written, the song would be a significant deviation from the original. Being that most of my gigs are pop/rock covers - I treat ANY chart that I receive as a starting point - and always confirm that what's on the paper lines up with the actual song. ... and simply assume that some adjustment will be required. The only question ends up being how much adjustment will be needed. Every now and then, reconciling the chart is more trouble than it's worth. In those instances, I toss the chart and rely on my ears to figure it out. I figure it just comes with the territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted October 30, 2011 Members Share Posted October 30, 2011 ^ This. I'd probably take it a step further and say that you can pretty much count on them not being correct. There's usually something that ain't right ... usually something little (a missed chord .... or more likely a "guitar player" chord (i.e., a chord written as a minor that when put in context by bass note being played is in fact a Major 7th chord). I agree with you that it would be nice if the chart was correct ... however in my experience, most charts that I've seen have some flaw such that if you were to play it as written, the song would be a significant deviation from the original. Being that most of my gigs are pop/rock covers - I treat ANY chart that I receive as a starting point - and always confirm that what's on the paper lines up with the actual song. ... and simply assume that some adjustment will be required. The only question ends up being how much adjustment will be needed. Every now and then, reconciling the chart is more trouble than it's worth. In those instances, I toss the chart and rely on my ears to figure it out. I figure it just comes with the territory. Exactly . . . . Roy and I were just having a discussion about useful chart formats. He like bar lines and if you don't have access to a music file, then I completely agree. If you're used to working off vocal cues, as I am, the changes have to line up with the lyrics!! The html page formatting of many of these lyrics sites doesn't handle that well at all. When I make my lead sheets, I take it a step further and try to space the lyrics so they're reasonably close to the phrasing of the melody. The chords go right above the right syllable! It boils down to whether you're sight reading a chart, or using a chord/lyrics sheet to help you learn or remember a song . . . . very different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted October 30, 2011 Members Share Posted October 30, 2011 Exactly . . . .Roy and I were just having a discussion about useful chart formats. He like bar lines and if you don't have access to a music file, then I completely agree. If you're used to working off vocal cues, as I am, the changes have to line up with the lyrics!! The html page formatting of many of these lyrics sites doesn't handle that well at all. When I make my lead sheets, I take it a step further and try to space the lyrics so they're reasonably close to the phrasing of the melody. The chords go right above the right syllable!It boils down to whether you're sight reading a chart, or using a chord/lyrics sheet to help you learn or remember a song . . . . very different things. I'm definitely not a sight reader - I have to approach reading real music slowly and deliberately. It ain't pretty. In reality, for me "reading" music is alot like putting together a jigsaw puzzle ... I have all the pieces in the box and a "picture" of what the completed puzzle is supposed to look like (i.e., the MP3). All I gotta do is make the "pieces" fit to recreate the picture. A well formatted chart is always nice ... but given my limited reading skills - I'm going to the audio to obtain the nuances of the timing of the chord changes - regardless of how well the chart is formatted. I find that an accurate, "correctly" formatted chart tends to be a pretty big document - much bigger than I can practically work with on a gig. If I'm lucky enough to have a good chart to work from when learning a song - I end up condensing it down to a 5 x 8 card worth of chord symbols which I'll use on stage once I've worked up the tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted October 30, 2011 Members Share Posted October 30, 2011 So I just got this gig ($150 for 2 songs worth).. but like expected,it seems like the person in charge and some of the musicians I am working with are they really know what they are doing or professional about things. They've been really flaky about booking rehearsal time and what not.This is the sheet music they sent me.http://www.cifras.com.br/teclado/zeca-pagodinho/lua-de-ogumHere's what I wrote in response"I am sorry to say this, but the sheet music/link sent me is really badly written, as it does not show where each measure starts, and the chord changes may not be correct. I will probably need to transcribe, re-write and prepare a working chart for me and bass player(who is also not familiar with the music). Just to double check, are we performing the piece exactly like the recording form&harmony wise?"I know I am being really direct about the quality of sheet music they sent me, and that may seem offensive (especially in Asia where you are encouraged not to be too direct and say things in "nicer way") but IMO I'd rather just tell it like it is.. besides I am going to have to do extra work to prepare a working chart and I have less than 1 week to do so, so I'd rather cut to the chase. I also felt that it was important to communicate to them to make sure the singer doesn't have his/her rendition of the song that is different than the chart or the recording they sent me.It still boggles my mind that people actually think it's okay to send sheet music like this to someone they've never worked with. Personally, I make it a point to create a descent chart that is easy to read for other musicians. In most cases rehearsal times are limited and I'd rather not waste it due to poor quality of the music. I dont think i would have made a big deal about it. I am sure your note is going to cause the bride and those who are throwing the wedding a good deal of stress they dont need now. I guess i would have just asked for additional information like a track of the song they want you to cover or at least the artist whos version they like. You might have thrown some doubt there way that you are able to handle the gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the_big_e Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 The hard part for me would be following the lyrics. Since I don't speak that language it's a lot harder to follow the flow that it might be otherwise. Other than that, that about as much as I get from the guys in the band if I am lucky (I do keys, they are the geetar playrs!), you just gotta work with what you have. Sometime you can find sheet music for a song or a decent midi that you can use something like notation to convert to 'real' music which helps. As for the question of whether it is acceptable for them to give this to someone they don't know to work with, I expect that at seventy five bucks a song they expect you to be a 'professional' level musician and able to handle the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 Always get the artist/version of the song to be played. Then figure it out yourself and show up ready to play. I wouldn't assume they are being "unprofessional". Many popular songs don't have charts or sheet music that are accurate. No doubt they already know their parts, and were just sending you this link as a courtesy. But you may want to ask of them if they are playing THEIR parts as written on this chart. If so, best to (in my opinion) go with the "flow" and play your parts the same way, so you don't clash with the other musicians. Best bet overall is to have a rehearsal to make sure of what they are playing: be ready to modify what you do without complaining or bringing it up. That's just part of the gig: especially if they called you to do the job. Just do your job, don't make waves, and play what they play, whether it is exactly "right" or not. Especially don't make a stink over chord extensions that don't really affect the harmony or tone center. EG a minor 7 b 5 verses a diminished, or any omission or adding of a flat 7 (EG an Add9 vs. a "true" 9th). Those kinds of arguments are petty and not worth the effort, and besides, the flat 7 is mostly just a flavor note anyway. Play what sounds good with the ensemble, and don't focus so much on being "right", which may put you in opposition with the other musicians that got you the work in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 Bar lines would be essential for most of us. [video=youtube;0H3rrQjf5Lo] What's a A7/13- ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 What's a A7/13- ?? Just for sake of discussion: why rely on someone elses transcription when you can make your own? For example: I'm not extremely well "versed" in nashville notation, but I found I was able to crank out about 3 Nashville charts an hour, using vertical bars for 4 count measures and the number system for chords. Since this guy has only 2 songs to learn.....how hard can it be? You figure that it was an "amateur" musician that made the chart posted on the web in the first place, right? It's not like this is a Hal Leonard sheet or anything like that. Not to be harsh or anything, but it seems to me that if he can't chart one song like this, then he should give the gig to someone that can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinC Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 I looked at the link they sent you, and there is a video as well as a chord chart. I would hope that would be enough. It's clear the chart is very informal, but the audio/video is pretty clear. If you play along with the vid for 20 minutes and don't have this tune down, you shouldn't take the gig. It's true that if your a sight reader who wants to work with a chart, the chart isn't good enough, but for a tune like this, you should be able to memorize it pretty quickly IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 If I was comfortable enough with the idiom and wanted the gig, I'd do what I always do with a new song. Make a chart starting with the lyrics and borrow from the chords provided. Make changes that you like that won't conflict with what others will play. Learn the song so that the chart which you'll have in front of you will be superfluous. Not everyone has the same routine, and it may vary depending on the song, but that's what I'd do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 If I was comfortable enough with the idiom and wanted the gig, I'd do what I always do with a new song. Make a chart starting with the lyrics and borrow from the chords provided. Make changes that you like that won't conflict with what others will play. Learn the song so that the chart which you'll have in front of you will be superfluous.Not everyone has the same routine, and it may vary depending on the song, but that's what I'd do. That's exactly what I'd do too. But I'm not sure that I'd worry too much about being comfortable with the idiom, unless I was expected to improvise. If I wasn't comfortable with the idiom, I'd just spend a lot more time playing along with the song in headphones until I got in the pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lsits Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 What kind of music stand are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hum Bucker Posted October 31, 2011 Members Share Posted October 31, 2011 I looked at the link they sent you, and there is a video as well as a chord chart. I would hope that would be enough. It's clear the chart is very informal, but the audio/video is pretty clear. If you play along with the vid for 20 minutes and don't have this tune down, you shouldn't take the gig. It's true that if your a sight reader who wants to work with a chart, the chart isn't good enough, but for a tune like this, you should be able to memorize it pretty quickly IMO. I'd have to agree with this, to be honest. You have the song there, and all the chords. What more do you need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SoundWrangler Posted November 1, 2011 Members Share Posted November 1, 2011 I'd have to agree with this, to be honest. You have the song there, and all the chords. What more do you need? Also agreed - especially when you're getting paid $150 to learn/play 2 songs. Just printing out this chart, then handwriting a few bar lines, would get you pretty close. The only idiosyncrasy is the site's unfortunate use of a slash symbol to separate extensions (9, 13) from the 7th chord underneath (would have been better to put this within parentheses for example, or even better put the 9 or 13 INSTEAD of a 7 at all), in addition to the more conventional use of the slash to indicate a bass note that goes underneath another chord (E/D, A/C#). Of course, maybe the OTHER chart is much worse, and I'm missing something! :-) On second thought, however, if it was me hiring you for the gig, I would have pulled that songsheet into Word, cleaned it up for phrasing and alignment of chords with individual words, throw in a few bar lines around chords, etc., to make better use of everyone's time. But not everyone has the time, inclination and musical (or formatting!) chops to do that, without possibly making it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted November 2, 2011 Members Share Posted November 2, 2011 I looked at the link they sent you, and there is a video as well as a chord chart. I would hope that would be enough. It's clear the chart is very informal, but the audio/video is pretty clear. If you play along with the vid for 20 minutes and don't have this tune down, you shouldn't take the gig. This^^^^+1 Sorry OP, the bandleader hired you to play music, not just read a chart. Just cuz the chart is not one you can instantly turn into music, he gave you enough tools to get the job done. If you don't want to do the extra work, don't take the gig. And your reply to him was a bit petulant and whiny. I know that in your eyes, the bandleader is not getting it done, but being anything other than "can do" is unprofessional. Keep your gripes to yourself and make music. $150 for 2 songs ain't bad. And in the big boy world, you come across ALL kinds of charts. Nashville Numbers, Chords over lyrics, PVG, Lead sheets, chord sheets, piano only charts, 4 part harmony (chorale) only, charts out of key and the band leader calls it in a different key and you have to transpose on the fly, all kinds of stuff.......and you have to turn it into music. 1 little gripe or whiny complaint, and there is someone on the other end of their phone who'd be glad to do the work cheerfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pickinatit Posted November 3, 2011 Members Share Posted November 3, 2011 I have two big loose-leaf books of charts that are mostly nothing more then chords arranged over top of the lyrics where the changes occur (even that depends on the phrasing that the singer uses). My brother-in-law, thumbing thru them said to me, "what about the time? You can't tell the timing of the changes". My answer to him was that the chart is a guide for playing a song that you familiarize yourself with by listening to it, not a tool for sight reading. If I expected anyone to be able to sight read the stuff I could write the parts out on staff paper, but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted November 3, 2011 Members Share Posted November 3, 2011 I have two big loose-leaf books of charts that are mostly nothing more then chords arranged over top of the lyrics where the changes occur (even that depends on the phrasing that the singer uses). My brother-in-law, thumbing thru them said to me, "what about the time? You can't tell the timing of the changes". My answer to him was that the chart is a guide for playing a song that you familiarize yourself with by listening to it, not a tool for sight reading. If I expected anyone to be able to sight read the stuff I could write the parts out on staff paper, but.... I do something similar - using 5 x 8 cards. Being that I primarily sing backups - I don't need much space for vocals. My "charts" typically end up being nothing more than a collection of the most basic of elements of the tune - with virtually no end to end continuity. A chart might read: Intro followed by three or four chord symbols. Verse followed by the basic progression. Chorus along with those chords. Bridge followed by the bridge chords and Outtro with whatever those chords are. I don't bother with writing the "format" out being that the format tends to change depending on crowd reaction (great reaction = extended play version where a "fart in church" response might get the "verse, chorus, bridge, chorus - out" treament. I sometimes include text comments regarding patch settings, the feel that a given part needs (i.e., Swing this, Rinky-tink that), the note that my vocal harmony starts on, etc. They're cryptic - but just enough to allow me pull out a tune that I haven't played in ages and refresh my memory with the basics. I've taken to creating a "chart" for pretty much any tune that I learn - using Microsoft's "One Note" application to create and store my "charts" (one per page that is formatted as a 5 x 8 card) - and now have a library that's close to 300 tunes. I print, two hole punch and bind them into little books using 2 simple metal binder rings. If I'm using them at a gig - I'll shuffle the deck to match our set list - and simply set the book on the open area on the top of my RD700SX. All I gotta do is turn the page and I'm ready for the next tune. Being that they're created and stored in an eFormat - I can easily modify any chart if needed - as well as reprint any chart that gets a little dog-eared from use. Real musicians who work with real charts would likely find my approach pretty cheezy. However, it is simple, effective and very unobstrusive - and works like a charm for me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Agitator Posted November 3, 2011 Members Share Posted November 3, 2011 It still boggles my mind that people actually think it's okay to send sheet music like this to someone they've never worked with. Personally, I make it a point to create a descent chart that is easy to read for other musicians. In most cases rehearsal times are limited and I'd rather not waste it due to poor quality of the music. That's more sheet music than I get for most sub gigs. Honestly, they probably think that with that chart and a recording of the song in question, most half-decent musicians could figure it out. And I think they're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SeniorBlues Posted November 3, 2011 Members Share Posted November 3, 2011 I just finished charting "I'm Leavin" by Bramhall. It has a 2/4 measure and a 3/4 measure during the chorus. Also some "extra" 4/4 measures thrown in throughout the song. Bar lines seemed like the way to go. It actually looks OK . . . . might become a habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Agitator Posted November 3, 2011 Members Share Posted November 3, 2011 I just finished charting "I'm Leavin" by Bramhall. It has a 2/4 measure and a 3/4 measure during the chorus. Also some "extra" 4/4 measures thrown in throughout the song. Bar lines seemed like the way to go. It actually looks OK . . . . might become a habit. It all depends on the song. I'm transcribing songs for a sub gig this weekend. Some charts look like this: - C - 1451 Some charts have measure counts next to each chord if they're played for more than one measure. Some charts (for slightly more complex songs) have bar lines. It all depends on how complicated the songs are, and how well I know them already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members etcetra Posted November 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 9, 2011 I've been busy and haven't had time to respond.. but first of all thanks for all the replies! To clarify, I needed to know whether the recording was any different from how they were playing it before I actually create a lead-sheet other musicians to use. I felt that I needed to be direct about it, because I was worried that not knowing the abilities of other musicians they hired, they may indeed follow the original chart as written with all the mistakes. who knows, they may have been playing that way all this time without knowing it, or they actually want me to play it that way. Yes it's possible that the he/she sent it merely as a reference, that would be common sense.. but I've learned that it's better not to assume anything. The last thing you want is the guitar playing the original chart as written with all the mistakes, while I play the changes from the recording during rehearsal(that is, if we have one). Maybe I am asking too much, but whenever I call someone for a gig, and if the music something that is not easily accessible (not in real books), then I make it a point to make a good lead sheet for the musicans to read. At least I was taught that that's how you are supposed do things as a professional and that my reputation as a musician depended on it. I remember my teachers and the people I worked with giving me a hard time for giving them lousy charts, and I agree with them. ultimately preparing good charts saves a lot of time from possible confusions/train wreck that may result from poorly written charts or having other musicians figure things out on their own. For example, there are plenty of instances where someone learned the music on their own but made mistakes on the form/hits etc. All I needed to do was give them a copy of my chart and we were able to fix the problem right away. It also helps when a singer decides that he/she wants to skip the form on a song. If I figured it out on my own without the music, then it probably would have taken a lot more time to fix that problem, as you can't refer to measure numbers as reference, and you may have to rely on listening to the recording several times for the other person to identify/fix he mistake I personally think this is the only way to be efficient..but then again I come from jazz background so that may have to do with it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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