Members Red Posted January 19, 2004 Members Share Posted January 19, 2004 I'm a youth pastor and am putting together a pa system for our youth group. My wife and I are buying all of the equipment so we don't have an unlimited budget but we want to get a good quality system so we don't want to skimp on cables. In addition to using it for the youth, my wife will also use it as a backup PA as she has a band that performs for corporate events and weddings. Here's the equipment we are piecing together so I'll need your advice on when to use 1/4", 1/4" TRS, XLR, etc. I could also use advice on how to connect it all (best signal path). All of this equipment will be in one rack which is a Gator 10x6 case where the mixer is on top. Mixer- Mackie 1402 VLZ-Pro Efx- TC Electronics M300 multi efx processor Compressor- dbx 160A Furman PL-8 Line conditioner dbx 231 2 channel eq (I guess one channel will be for the foh mix and the other for monitors which we won't have for a while) Eventually a BBE sonic maximizer We aren't set on speakers but will most likely go with FBT MaxX 4a powered speakers. How many of these units can be connected with quality 1/4" cables such as George L or something similar and how many need TRS or XLR? The more specific you can be the better as I'm totally new to sound though I've been playing guitar for years. Also, is it cheaper to buy bulk cable and wire them myself? I don't need hundreds of feet unless you recommend me making my own XLR's for the longer mic cables. I'm fairly competent with a soldering iron if necessary though I know many connectors are solderless. The plan is to have 3 vocal mics (channels 1-3), acoustic guitar, electric guitar, keyboard and maybe a mic for congas and that will do it initially as the room isn't big enough to worry about micing the drums and bass. I'd be totally stoked if someone had the time to walk me through the setup, i.e. you'll use xlr's to go from your mics into the mixer or mics into your effects and from there you'll use shorter xlr's or trs cables to go into your mixer....than you'll use blank to connect your eq to blank........I'm sure I'm already way off but I just through that out as an example. BTW- why do some use mic and others mik? I'm probably wrong but it seems like a proper abreviation for me. And finally, does this sound like a decent PA system or is this pretty low end? I've been unemployed for 5 months so I'm on a bit of a budget here . Thanks so much for hookin a newbie up! Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted January 19, 2004 Members Share Posted January 19, 2004 Originally posted by Red I'm a youth pastor and am putting together a pa system for our youth group. My wife and I are buying all of the equipment so we don't have an unlimited budget but we want to get a good quality system so we don't want to skimp on cables. In addition to using it for the youth, my wife will also use it as a backup PA as she has a band that performs for corporate events and weddings. Here's the equipment we are piecing together so I'll need your advice on when to use 1/4", 1/4" TRS, XLR, etc. I could also use advice on how to connect it all (best signal path). All of this equipment will be in one rack which is a Gator 10x6 case where the mixer is on top. Mixer- Mackie 1402 VLZ-Pro Efx- TC Electronics M300 multi efx processor Compressor- dbx 160A Furman PL-8 Line conditioner dbx 231 2 channel eq (I guess one channel will be for the foh mix and the other for monitors which we won't have for a while) Eventually a BBE sonic maximizer We aren't set on speakers but will most likely go with FBT MaxX 4a powered speakers. How many of these units can be connected with quality 1/4" cables such as George L or something similar and how many need TRS or XLR? The more specific you can be the better as I'm totally new to sound though I've been playing guitar for years. Also, is it cheaper to buy bulk cable and wire them myself? I don't need hundreds of feet unless you recommend me making my own XLR's for the longer mic cables. I'm fairly competent with a soldering iron if necessary though I know many connectors are solderless. The plan is to have 3 vocal mics (channels 1-3), acoustic guitar, electric guitar, keyboard and maybe a mic for congas and that will do it initially as the room isn't big enough to worry about micing the drums and bass. I'd be totally stoked if someone had the time to walk me through the setup, i.e. you'll use xlr's to go from your mics into the mixer or mics into your effects and from there you'll use shorter xlr's or trs cables to go into your mixer....than you'll use blank to connect your eq to blank........I'm sure I'm already way off but I just through that out as an example. BTW- why do some use mic and others mik? I'm probably wrong but it seems like a proper abreviation for me. And finally, does this sound like a decent PA system or is this pretty low end? I've been unemployed for 5 months so I'm on a bit of a budget here . Thanks so much for hookin a newbie up! Dane You can get by using standard unbalanced 1/4" patch cables with the short runs you'll have. 1/4" TRS cables will give you balanced hookups,providing all of the equipment in the chain is wired for it. And XLR's will do likewise. You don't run your mics into the effects unit. Even if it worked ok,you would need a separate one for each mic. So,that is what the aux send and return on the mixer is used for. Run your effects into that and then use the channel pot for that auxiliary to control the amount of effects. Now,a couple other things. What do you need the compressor for? Not that it is a bad thing,but a lot of people get them just because they think they should have one in there somewhere. As for the maximizer,why? If you need one,there is probably something in your chain that needs to be changed or adjusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rintincop Posted January 19, 2004 Members Share Posted January 19, 2004 If memory serves me correctly: With powered speakers you use balanced cables (XLR) Mics use unbalanced XLR Effects units and EQ units use 1/4 " unbalanced cables from the various effect send and effect return jacks of your mixer (check Mackie manual) Double check with and Pro Audio store that sells such gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rintincop Posted January 19, 2004 Members Share Posted January 19, 2004 If the power is usually reliable in your area I don't see a need for the Furman power strip. Any power surge protection strip will do as well. I think Furman is overpriced hype and unneccessary. You might only need the mixer and powered speakers.EQ can be done on the Mackie mixer.Effects are often not needed with loud live music if the room has it's own echo, you could see how it sounds and then add the effects if needed if you are on a tight budget. Have you auditioned the FBT SPEAKERS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rintincop Posted January 19, 2004 Members Share Posted January 19, 2004 I don't care for the BBE sonic maximizer, it makes things sound crispy or crunchy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Red Posted January 19, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 19, 2004 Originally posted by tlbonehead You can get by using standard unbalanced 1/4" patch cables with the short runs you'll have. 1/4" TRS cables will give you balanced hookups,providing all of the equipment in the chain is wired for it. And XLR's will do likewise. ---------------Is there any benefit to using balanced cables in place of the 1/4" or is the difference almost unnoticeable and therefore not worth the expense? Do I want a really low impedence 1/4" cable such as George L's? Some other brand?You don't run your mics into the effects unit. Even if it worked ok,you would need a separate one for each mic. So,that is what the aux send and return on the mixer is used for. Run your effects into that and then use the channel pot for that auxiliary to control the amount of effects. ---------------Cool, I think I'm following you regarding the aux. Should I use TRS cables from the aux to the efx and back?Now,a couple other things. What do you need the compressor for? Not that it is a bad thing,but a lot of people get them just because they think they should have one in there somewhere. ----------------I got one because I spoke with a few guys who have a fair amount of experience and they recommended that I get a decent compressor. This is one thing I wished I had waited on but I got a good deal on ebay and I have it so should I use it? For the whole mix or just vocals? Keep in mind that the youth have 0 experience singing into mics so I thought it might help until they learn how to work the mic. How will I connect this to the mixer and with which cables?As for the maximizer,why? If you need one,there is probably something in your chain that needs to be changed or adjusted. -----------------I've talked with several people who say that it was the best money they spent as far as making a huge difference sound wise. But hey, if I can get by without it than I'm a happy camper! So no BBE. What about an eq? rintincop- you say it may not be necessary. The mackie does have the 3 band eq for each channel. Should that be enough? I can spend the money for a dual 31 band eq if it will really dial in the sound but I'm happy saving that money if it's not necessary. Aren't mic cables balanced xlr's? I thought all xlr's were balanced. I listened to the FBT's at NAMM and sounded great but we couldn't crank them due to noise restrictions. I think they are the way to go though as they were light and yet bulletproof. Thanks again guys! You are really helping me out.Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ashivraj Posted January 19, 2004 Members Share Posted January 19, 2004 where do i start... your equipment is pretty decent, especially on a budget - which incidentally is more than most folks who post similar questions. if you can afford all of that, then definitely buy it. not so sure about the BBE though, it doesn't do too much. rintincop - mics are balanced xlr anyway. signal path: 1 mics > XLR > mixer 2 compressor inserted into vocal channel(s)* 3 mixer postfade aux out > 1/4" TS > FX in** 4 FX L&R out > 1/4" TS (x2) > aux return / stereo input** 5 mixer L&R out > 1/4" TS (x2) > EQ in** 6 EQ out L&R > XLR (x2) > powered speaker in. * = tlbonehead brings up a valid point about its use. it can do more harm then good if used wrong. ** = these are unbalanced, but ok in your case. go balanced if you're using longer runs. when you do get monitors, 5 and 6 will change: 5a mixer (run in mono - everything panned center) L out > 1/4" TS > EQ L in 5b mixer aux1 out (aux1 is your monitor mix) > 1/4" TS > EQ R in 6a EQ L out > XLR > powered speaker in (FOH) 6b EQ R out > XLR > powered monitor in (mon) in all cases, if you choose to go with a power amp and passive speakers, "powered speaker in" will become: 0a (XLR >) amp in 0b amp out > speaker cable > speaker in cable terminology: XLR = balanced (2cond + shield) mic cable with XLR ends insert cable = 1/4" TRS on one end, 2x 1/4" TS on the other (2cond + shield). 1/4" TS = unbalanced instrument cable (1cond + shield)- standard guitar cord speaker cable - unshielded 2cond speaker cable (infinite recursion!! )(thicker than guitar cable) cond = conductor as for buying/building cables - if you've got time on your hands, and experience, building your own cables works out cheaper. otherwise, be warned that it is time consuming, and that any decent cable requires soldering (especially the XLRs, of which you'll need at least 10-15). check with Mark (goes by Audiopile on this forum, or http://audiopile.net) - he'll fix you up either way, finished cables or parts. oh and. you'll want to buy a few DI boxes - always handy to have lying around. plus, they're almost essential when connecting non-mic stuff to the PA - i.e. acoustic guitar, keys, and the electric if you're not micing the amp. passive ones will work fine for you. again, Mark (Audiopile) is your man. buy 3-4 if you can. hope this helps... ask back if you've got more questions! AS PS - mic and mike - similar to how 'michael' can become 'mike'. no idea how, i just follow the masses. also, 'mic' can sound like the guy from the rolling stones, while 'mice' can sound like a bunch of small rats. blah. one of those things in life. PPS - i'd love to work with youth some day... right now, God wants me studying sound, so that's what im upto. it's a noble calling; i wish you the best! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted January 19, 2004 Members Share Posted January 19, 2004 Originally posted by Red So no BBE. What about an eq? rintincop- you say it may not be necessary. The mackie does have the 3 band eq for each channel. Should that be enough? I can spend the money for a dual 31 band eq if it will really dial in the sound but I'm happy saving that money if it's not necessary.Aren't mic cables balanced xlr's? I thought all xlr's were balanced.I listened to the FBT's at NAMM and sounded great but we couldn't crank them due to noise restrictions. I think they are the way to go though as they were light and yet bulletproof.Thanks again guys! You are really helping me out.Dane By all means,get a decent EQ,at least a dual 15. The Peavey FLS models are really handy because they tell where the feedback is at if you have any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Red Posted January 22, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by ashivraj PPS - i'd love to work with youth some day... right now, God wants me studying sound, so that's what im upto. it's a noble calling; i wish you the best! ashivraj- Your knowledge of sound is a gift and no doubt that God is using it already as you've already helped me out a ton with your info. Man, I wish we had a decent sound guy at our church. Every Sunday is a new adventure and we just never no how it's going to sound ! You'll have plenty of time to work with the youth and teaching them sound is an awesome in road into their lives. Gosh just thinking about it for a minute and I could think of 10 messages using sound (signal path, all of the components working together, distortion, etc.) as an illustration. Anyway, thanks for you help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ashivraj Posted January 22, 2004 Members Share Posted January 22, 2004 Originally posted by Red so as not to derail this thread, heads up for a PM... AS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Red Posted January 22, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2004 What's a PM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rintincop Posted January 22, 2004 Members Share Posted January 22, 2004 You have a "private message" (PM) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Red Posted January 22, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2004 What's the best option for getting quality yet affordable cables? Is there a good place to buy bulk and then wire them myself? It sounds like I need several XLR's, TRS' and 1/4" cables and I imagine they add up if I buy them at the store so what do you recommend. I sent an e-mail to audiopile and am awaiting a response. Any other options you'd recommend? Also, how much of what would you recommend to wire my whole PA? -What's the most common/useful mic cable length?-" " " " speaker cable length?How much additional XLR, TRS and 1/4" for the above mentioned scenario? I know I'm asking a lot here and I appreciate your help! Thanks,Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Red Posted January 23, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 23, 2004 Thanks audiopile. I appreciate your detailed response but it kind of overwhelmed me since I'm a total newbie. ':D' Sticking to the K.I.S.S. method.....the following will all be placed in one Gator 10x6 rack with the mixer mounted in the top (10 spaces): Mixer- Mackie 1402 VLZ-ProEfx- TC Electronics M300 multi efx processorCompressor- dbx 160A**Furman PL-8 Line conditionerdbx 231 2 channel eq (I guess one channel will be for the foh mix and the other for monitors which we won't have for a while) **based upon some comments, I'm wondering if I shouldn't sell this on ebay and use the money for speakers or cables. Please keep in mind that this is going to be a very simple setup used for a youth worship band in a small room (20x30). Everything in the rack can have short cables since it will all be together. Speakers will be powered speakers and will be to the side and front of the band maybe 15 feet apart. The rack and mixer will be fairly close (maybe 15 feet) or even on stage like my wife does it at her gigs. Like I said, I really want to keep this as simple as possible and though I understand that there are many types of cables, I just want the easiest and best sounding setup without spending too much. ashivraj gave me some great feedback in an earlier post citing which cables to use where. I guess my question to you would be what's the most affordable way of getting them? Do I buy a bunch of short cables (2'? 2.5? 3'?) to connect my rack; get 2 speaker cables (20'? 35'? 50'?); and then the mic and instrument cables are obvious. This is getting to long so in a nutshell, do I buy all of these cables precut or can I save a lot of money by buying bulk and making them myself? I've built a few electric guitars from scratch so I'm fairly competent with a soldering iron. thanks,Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ashivraj Posted January 23, 2004 Members Share Posted January 23, 2004 Originally posted by Audiopile point taken, Mark. i was assuming standard XLR cables (like an MP101-25), standard mics (like an SM58), and standard inserts (unbalanced TRS). my experience (not that i have a lot) is mainly with systems of this size, and more often than not i've seen standard TRS x 2TS being used for inserts. i have seen quite a few cheapie high-Z mics, but we won't go there... but yea, i stand corrected... Originally posted by Red (cable requirements) here's what i'd get: - 15ea. 25' XLR-XLR cables (mics/speakers) - 2ea. 20' TS-TS cables (instruments) - 2ea. 5' TRS-TRS cables (rack interconnects) - 2ea. TRS-2TS cables (compressor inserts) - 2ea. passive DI boxes (instruments - mics to taste this is just to start, you can always add on later. you don't need speaker cable because with powered speakers, you use just normal mic cable. about buying readymade vs. buying in parts - get a price quote from mark. then estimate your solder skills. if you're still compelled to make your own, decide: do you have more time than money, or more money than time? time > money = solder, time hope this helps! AS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Red Posted January 25, 2004 Author Members Share Posted January 25, 2004 Well, if it's better to buy the cables professionally made than I'm cool with that. I bought some bulk George L's cable awhile back and cut it to the lengths I needed and was wondering if it was possible to do the same with these cables. BTW- How is George L for the 1/4" TS runs that I'll need? I love those solderless connections! So Mark, what am I looking at for the cable needed to wire this setup? ashivraj recommended: - 15ea. 25' XLR-XLR cables (mics/speakers)- 2ea. 20' TS-TS cables (instruments)- 2ea. 5' TRS-TRS cables (rack interconnects)- 2ea. TRS-2TS cables (compressor inserts) That sounds like a ton of 25' XLR cables. I already have enough mic cables for the mics so I'd really only need enough for the speakers and what ever short runs I'd need in the rack. Are your cables better quality than monster or some other brand? What am I looking at price wise. I sent you an email before but haven't heard back. You can contact me at danehauser@cox.net Thanks,Dane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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