Members bassknave Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 [/LURK] A few weeks ago, a post piqued my interest: the questioner asked why some bands were "punchy," while others were merely loud. At the most basic level, I believe that the answer lies in the ability of the "punchy" band's members to play together--to listen to each other--to get the right note at the right time--to avoid clutter--and most importantly--to use dynamics and accents to maximize impact. I strapped on my first bass over 40 years ago. I learned to play the notes--learned my way around the neck. What I didn't learn at first was feel--and the use of feel to create a groove that the whole band can ride. The "feel" and expressiveness eventually came to me, along with improved technique. Now, when I play, there are additional decisions that come into play on each note. The good news is that they are essentially instantaneous. 1: How do I fret (LH--Hard, light, ON the fret or above it)?2: How do I pluck (RH--Hard, light, at an angle or square, do I double fret)?3: Do I mute (LH/RH, palm, etc)?4: Where on (or off) the beat do I play? These decisions are simple, and are generally dictated by what serves the song, by what the other players are doing (since each is making similar decisions), and by the effect desired. It all starts with listening and communication, and with giving each band member room in each song to shine. It means serving the song. IMO, this is the difference between "playing songs" and actually making music. Comments? Thoughts? [LURK] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremendo Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 I'm just a guitar player, so the rest of the band follows me:D :D . (just kidding.) I've been playing with the same guys for over a year now and I think what has made us sound a little bit better is that we know more and more where each other are going. The drummer & I put together a band the day of a gig (ended up being 3 days in a row gig) on New Years with a bass player and guitarist we had never played with before. We did 40 covers (including a few originals) the first night, after only one 90 minute practice in the afternoon. What held it together was that I and the drummer were always at the same place, going in the same direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J the D Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 I first picked up an upright in 1967. Soon had a Fender too and have been plucking them ever since. It seems the more experience I get the fewer notes I play. I play in different groups where the players have varying levels of skill. I try to leave space for everyone. If there is a horn or guitar player or keyboard to take a fill I lay back but if the space is there I try to make it a musical contribution to the whole. Took me a long time to realize that a lead lick (such as above) doesn't have to be louder to be heard. I tend to be easier on the instrument as I get older and try to make every note have the perfect tone and let every rest last exactly the right length of time. Precision while being smooth is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 I think I'm the one you're referring to, when we were talking about 'power sponges' and stuff in that thread. I agree that timing and everything is important; it just seems like sometimes you go see a band and they have 'that sound'. And it seems like it's at the very least partially the guy at the board who's responsible. For example, there's a local venue here, the NorVa. They've got a 4-way V-DOSC system, flown with subs under the stage, enough power to kill small children, and the sound is crystal clear. If I go to a show there, it's guaranteed that about 90% of the time, the openers aren't going to sound that good, and the headlining band is going to kick all ass and sound crystal clear. To further this point -- about two months ago, Ill Ni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 Speaking as yet another bass player (hey, who else here gets "The Bottom Line"?) there's a lot of technique in getting good sound. I've been playing for over twenty years, and I've noticed a few little things I do that less-experienced players tend to miss. Damping notes, especially. You can open up the sound of a band just by leaving little tiny quiet spots in between your notes... no change in EQ or anything, but all of a sudden the notes are much clearer than somebody letting the notes run together. Get a whole band of people who understand their instrument's version of bass damping, and you really get a big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alby Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 Bassknave is God Instead of lamely paraphrasing your excellent post I will simply agree, with the caveat that a well tuned quality PA is also essential to your views, if the venue is of sufficient size to warrant said PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tommy Tune Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 A "great band" to me are a bunch of guys that know where their place is. They not only know what to play but what not to play, also. Backline equipment has alot to do with it too. Some gear is just punchier and tighter than others. Some people may not be into the Stones. Some argue that they are the best band in the world. Any way you argue it, you can't deny their success. When people mention great vocalists, guitarists, bass players or drummers........I never seem to hear any of their names. Yet, collectively, they are one of the best rock bands ever. So, there you have it. Even if a band is geared toward showcasing a particular person, they still have to know how to lay back and accent what that particular person is playing. They have to add feeling and allow the music to breathe. So, for me, it's not only what they play but also what they don't that makes a band great. With that in mind, a bad soundguy will definitely undermine all of that. Knowing what not to do is part of the sound guy's job too. He has to know what levels to raise & when to do it. He has to know how to get it sounding full but clear and seperated. I always look at the soud guy as the "invisible" member of the band. A band's job is to be tight, hit all the notes, and create some type of party in the club. The sound guy's job is to enhance all of that. When it all works together, that equates to one of those gigs that you never want to end. BTW.......we're trying a new guy tonight. Wish us luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alby Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 Originally posted by Tommy Tune My whole view on it is that you can't polish a turd. LOL. A "great band" to me are a bunch of guys that know where their place is. They not only know what to play but what not to play, also. Some people may not be into the Stones. Some argue that they are the best band in the world. Any way you aregue it, you can't deny their success. When people mention great vocalists, guitarists, bass players or drummers........I never seem to hear any of their names. Yet, collectively, they are one of the best rock bands ever. So, there you have it. Even if a band is geared toward showcasing a particular person, they still have to know how to lay back and accent what that particular person is playing. They have to add feeling and allow the music to breathe. So, for me, it's not only what they play but also what they don't that makes a band great. Sadly, with modern electronics, crafty tune selection, and well thought out stage presentation, etc., you can polish a turd, even live, if everyone is organized and knowledgeable enough and you have sequences, harmonizers, pitch correction, fancy clothes, great lights, great PA etc. Pop bands do it all the time and lots of all female grungy rock bands too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tommy Tune Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 Sorry Alby, I realized that after I posted it and edited it but when I came back.........you had already posted. LOL. If the band is not musically tight, it's still gonna sound like a train wreck but I agree there is alot that you can do to mask it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alby Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 I really really wish it was not true. For example my wife is very happy to listen to stuff which is obviously for the most part not even played at all, and I am guilty of this to some fair degree as I do a high-tech single with lots of toys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alby Posted February 21, 2004 Members Share Posted February 21, 2004 We don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members groove.77 Posted February 22, 2004 Members Share Posted February 22, 2004 Great post. Here's an example - listen to Maroon5's "This Love". Very tight, punchy music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted February 22, 2004 Members Share Posted February 22, 2004 What it takes to sound good is solid mucianship, good tone on each instrument (tune those drums!) and the understanding on space. It's very important to be respectful of each instrument's space needs, musically as well as tonally. After how many years of amplified music we basically have formulas that work in every genre of music. While it's nice to try and break free, there's a reason that these things have settled the way they have. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted February 22, 2004 Members Share Posted February 22, 2004 What it takes to sound good is solid mucianship, good tone on each instrument (tune those drums!) and the understanding on space. It's very important to be respectful of each instrument's space needs, musically as well as tonally. After how many years of amplified music we basically have formulas that work in every genre of music. While it's nice to try and break free, there's a reason that these things have settled the way they have. pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nic'o'caster Posted February 22, 2004 Members Share Posted February 22, 2004 great post ! I totally agree with Audiopile and his idea of the larger headroom (experience/skills) the better. A 2h performance has a lot to do with consistency. If you begin at 90% of your abilities there are many chances you can't get much higher ! The tighter and more focused each musician is the better the band sounds. At the opposite just make the sum of everyone's little imprecisions and you get the critical point you don't want to reach... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassknave Posted February 23, 2004 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2004 Mark: 1: As usual, you expanded wonderfully on my post and summed it up more eloquently than I ever could. 2: IIRC, the pianist of whom you speak was Vladimir Horowitz--a GIANT on keys. I will say that the more you can listen to and focus on (and anticipate) what EACH OTHER is (will be) doing, the better and tighter the band will be, assuming that you have a basic level of technical skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2004 Members Share Posted February 23, 2004 Great post Phil. Time and space exist so that things don't happen on top of each other all at the same time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cstime Posted February 23, 2004 Members Share Posted February 23, 2004 Mark - here's the Horowitz in Moscow concert. "Fur Elise" isn't on it (although I think the Rachmaninoff he plays at the end might be the piece you're thinking of; I've never heard a recording of Horowitz playing Fur Elise), but it remains one of the finest examples of musicianship I've ever heard; I know exactly what you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members windbag Posted February 23, 2004 Members Share Posted February 23, 2004 Yeah, the masters make it sound easy. They have the technique and they have the judgment borne of experience to know when to hold back and how little to put into the music. We can all put a lot in, takes skill to leave it out. Being a piss poor bass player, (trained on woodwind, you see), I'm always looking for ways to improve. And whatever I think of or notice in another player, it pretty well always comes back to basic technique and relentless self-criticism. And that comes back to scales, finger exercises and endless listening. However bad you are, unless you truly are the worst in the world (and they don't roam these shores, do they?), take some time to listen to players a little less able than yourself. The things you notice are 1 Uneven technique - notes all over the shop in volume and timing 2 Too much going on - panic, as often as not 3 Lack of music going on as a result - especially in slow numbers. I learned more from crap players than good ones. Especially leaving stuff out. Most beginners would sound better playing a root note once a bar (measure) than whatever they're trying to do. I did, so I cut out about half of what I play overnight. That gave me time to fret and pluck better, which made me more aware of bum notes, which made me try harder ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thundercranium Posted February 24, 2004 Members Share Posted February 24, 2004 And I was going to base my response on the fact that you can't polish a turd! In any event, I have found that the more each member of the band understands what a "song" is, the better off you will be. I can't begin to name the number of exceptional musicians I have played with that, although they had technical mastery of their instrument, did not understand how/why music can move people. Give me a competent player who understands that over a technical virtuoso any day. Bolied down to one piece of advice that will make your band better - look for a drummer who can sing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kennykeys Posted February 25, 2004 Members Share Posted February 25, 2004 Originally posted by Thundercranium Bolied down to one piece of advice that will make your band better - look for a drummer who can sing I've had alot of drummers who were way too busy. Typically, they played alot better when they were singing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members picker13 Posted February 25, 2004 Members Share Posted February 25, 2004 When I was younger and new to playing in bands, my problem was that I wasn't use to the experience, and spent all of my energy listening only to myself and concentrating on what I was playing. After a while, I started to get more confidence, and started noticing what everyone else was doing, but didn't use that information. I was hearing but not listening. Now, I am always listening to other players, thinking of what or how to play that will fit in the best and make for the best overall sound. I've gotten this way without really thinking about it. Now I think about it all the time. I get disgusted with my bandmates who are still in phase 1 or 2. No matter what I tell them, they still fall back into their old ways. It is such a drag that they just don't get it. Perhaps the worst mistake they make has been talked about in this thread -- not leaving "space" for the other instruments. I was at a local festival a couple of years ago with some of the other players in my band. There was this bluegrass group playing. They had their act together. They would back off or play less "busy" when someone had a lead part or when voice was key. I pointed out what they were doing, but sure enough, over the heads of my bandmates. I've tried to exaggerate what they do, but that only makes things worse. I'm wondering if I should lay some tracks down on my DAW and mix it the way they are playing, and then the way the SHOULD be playing, and let them pick the one that sounds best. I can't think of anything else to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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