Members Xplora Posted May 28, 2004 Members Share Posted May 28, 2004 Hopefully a few people will have a look at this thread.. most likely my last post on a forum before my 24th birthday (holy crap I'm old). OK, here's the story... you can laugh whilst you read, I can't hear you I'm a guitarist, and now drummer and part time bass player (they need bassists at church!). My main musical direction is death metal type stuff. I've used some freakin' serious guitar gear in the past (2:90 into 6 speakers worth of Mesa halfback, cranked), and have decided its all too heavy and too much of a pain. I've also taken a massive interest in drumming lately So, with my realisation that DI is good enough these days for live work (and it is), I want to be able to run a couple vocal mikes, keyboard sound module, POD Pro and a few Vamp Pro units for guitar and bass and lastly trigger kick drum and snare, all through the PA. Death metal music. And I don't want to spend a fortune. ............. waits for laughter and indignation to subside.......... I just bought a CR1604 Mackie mixer (from the same guy I bought my Mesa poweramp from no less, 4 years ago!). He does custom PA setups, custom cabinets and crossovers etc. He was throwing around ideas left right and centre. Anyways, what value would a guy like this be to me? (Jeff, if you're reading this, I love ya work! honest! ) He was talking about all sorts of things. I am unsure of what I need for medium sized gigs (use my PA as a backline to supplement house PA for large stuff), but I think I can afford an AM3002 Australian Monitor poweramp, used, if not the cabinets it would drive LOL. Essentially getting things built by Jeff means my specific needs are met, and a lot of outboard stuff won't be necessary because it will be built with my requirements in mind, AND he's not a spaced out fool who overcharges for anything. Am I looking at a MASSIVE bill for trying to achieve "significant power" for my chosen genre? What should I expect from second hand gear? Any thoughts or derision appreciated... I'll probably go with Jeff's custom gear, but it would be nice to be ready for the numbers he could throw at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 28, 2004 Members Share Posted May 28, 2004 My guess is that you will have a better outcome at a known price with commercially available PA equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted May 28, 2004 Members Share Posted May 28, 2004 Wow, long time no see... Australian monitor are more known for studio amps than for live work, although D aussie on the bass forum can't recommend them enough. Check the trading post, drum media, stuff like that for second hand. Second hand is the way to go in aus full stop. I'm not sure about you using a pa as a backline in support of a house PA - using the actual monitors would probably be more useful (and controllable by the sound guy). I'd be looking into brands like peavey, qsc, crown, yamaha etc. as well as aussie brands like jands and perrault. For a full PA (including subs to mic all instruments) you are looking at a heap of cash - probably the vicinity of $10000au + second hand. Start asking questions, I've been going through the aussie pa thing for a couple of years - PM me with any specific aussie gear questions and I'll do my best. Another good place to find out would be http://www.guitargear.net.au/ and ask some of the people there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted May 28, 2004 CMS Author Share Posted May 28, 2004 *looks about to see if GCDEF is watching* I'd say around $15,000. Seriously, I'd be very reluctant to go with custom anything unless I'd previously experienced the work firsthand. If you have done so and still want to continue, consider that most manufacturers enjoy economies that custom builders simply can't. They are then able to use that portion of the sale price for things like spare parts, warranty, technical support, and hopefully, better quality. Consider speakers. Go price a driver, crossover, jackplate, grille and hardware, tolex or poly, and 13-ply birch in quantities to complete one or two pairs of subs. Compare with the cost to buy the equivalent commercially available cabinet. Don't forget to add labor to the total...... If there's a need that can't be met by stock products, then by all means go custom. Otherwise, you're not buying yourself a bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted May 28, 2004 Members Share Posted May 28, 2004 Death Metal = LOUD = $$$$"6 speakers worth of Mesa halfback, cranked" = VERY LOUD = $$$$$$$$$$$ To get a PA that meets your volume requirement, be prepared to break out the checkbook. Cost may be in the range of a midsize sedan. You won't save any weight, either; Guitar gear is very efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Xplora Posted May 29, 2004 Author Members Share Posted May 29, 2004 Thanks guys... Moody, glad to see you're sticking around at HC... I've been frequenting the Pearl drum forum more than anything else these days I'm definitely scared of the cabinet prices. The cabinets required to absorb 3200W are going to be the kicker. As far as custom goes, the guy in question isn't actually that expensive; the numbers he was throwing around were lower than anything (except Behringer). I'll try and hear the rig in action; he runs a 3000W PA, similar to what I'd be looking at. Just for information's sake, I have no intention of being as loud as my old Mesa rack gear. Seriously ridiculous volume. Half the reason I want to use DI boxes is to REDUCE volume. I'll wait for information regarding a new job on the horizon before I keep chasing this. hehehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted May 30, 2004 Members Share Posted May 30, 2004 Oh, one thing I forgot. Don't ignore etone speakers if your on a budget. They are solid and reliable for a very low cost and the maker is in peakhurst. (I got a couple of 15" etones for $70 second hand last week of ebay). I've been using one for reasonably loud live bass for the last year without problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Xplora Posted May 30, 2004 Author Members Share Posted May 30, 2004 Yeah, Jeff was talking about Etones being quite good, especially considering the price. If they are relatively good and will suck up the amperes, all good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 30, 2004 Members Share Posted May 30, 2004 Who cares if it can take "the power"? A light bulb can take the power! What matters is how much sound (and the quality) delivered for each watt of input. A speaker with twice the efficiency (3dB greater sensitivity rating) would produce the same sound level with 1/2 the power. You get what you pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted May 30, 2004 Members Share Posted May 30, 2004 Originally posted by agedhorse Who cares if it can take "the power"? A light bulb can take the power!What matters is how much sound (and the quality) delivered for each watt of input.A speaker with twice the efficiency (3dB greater sensitivity rating) would produce the same sound level with 1/2 the power.You get what you pay for. They compare favourably with jbl K-140's in the same cabinets. Approximately equal volume and quality. Take that for what it's worth (I don't have many speakers to compare to). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Xplora Posted May 31, 2004 Author Members Share Posted May 31, 2004 Originally posted by agedhorse Who cares if it can take "the power"? A light bulb can take the power! What matters is how much sound (and the quality) delivered for each watt of input. A speaker with twice the efficiency (3dB greater sensitivity rating) would produce the same sound level with 1/2 the power. You get what you pay for. Something instinctively tells me that a light bulb isn't going to take the signal that a raging 3200W PA power amp is going to put out, otherwise they wouldn't have invented those speakon cables Point taken though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted May 31, 2004 Members Share Posted May 31, 2004 Originally posted by Xplora Something instinctively tells me that a light bulb isn't going to take the signal that a raging 3200W PA power amp is going to put out, otherwise they wouldn't have invented those speakon cables Depends what lightbulb you are talking about? A lot of cabs use car lightbulbs for cheap / semi-useless protection and they handle the power quite well - until it is to much for the speaker anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Xplora Posted May 31, 2004 Author Members Share Posted May 31, 2004 Enough with the lightbulb stuff! I visited Lightsound in Parra this arvo. Had a nice little chat. Sounds like I'd be looking at 8000 bucks retail (not including compressors or reverbs etc sheesh!) for a super powerful rig. 1600W@4ohm a side poweramps can be had EXTREMELY CHEAP brand new, I was blown away Moody! 1699 rrp. I was right about the cabs though. Each poweramp needs two REALLY big cabinets to run with. Dual 15" with tweeters are worth 2000 each, and dual 18" subs LOL... the whole thing just spirals out of control. That said, no event would be uncovered LOL. I have to tone down the power ideas though. Maybe just solid 1x18" subs and treble/mid boxes with 3 way crossovers or something... which is easily and cheaply achievable with Custom. Methinks custom cabs might be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Centauri Posted May 31, 2004 Members Share Posted May 31, 2004 If you want to look at using second hand gear, then have a chat to Neil Smith. His site : http://www.rocknrollaus.com/ This guy has been around for ages, knows his stuff and whats out there. I f he doesn't have it, he will find it. CheersGraeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 31, 2004 Members Share Posted May 31, 2004 Originally posted by Xplora Something instinctively tells me that a light bulb isn't going to take the signal that a raging 3200W PA power amp is going to put out, otherwise they wouldn't have invented those speakon cables Point taken though. I was just illustrating the point of absorbing energy rather than giving you sound out of the energy you deliver. The average high quality speaker is only 5-8% efficient... the rest is heat. Every 3dB of efficiency loss is a 50% reduction in efficiency. I have a 5kW lamp bank that I use for testing lighting dimmers. They also work well in the appropriate amount for testing high powered amplifiers, especially for low impedance power management. The bank uses 5 x 1kW theatrical scoop bulbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted May 31, 2004 Members Share Posted May 31, 2004 Originally posted by Xplora Enough with the lightbulb stuff!I visited Lightsound in Parra this arvo. Had a nice little chat. Sounds like I'd be looking at 8000 bucks retail (not including compressors or reverbs etc sheesh!) for a super powerful rig.1600W@4ohm a side poweramps can be had EXTREMELY CHEAP brand new, I was blown away Moody! 1699 rrp. I was right about the cabs though. Each poweramp needs two REALLY big cabinets to run with. Dual 15" with tweeters are worth 2000 each, and dual 18" subs LOL... the whole thing just spirals out of control. That said, no event would be uncovered LOL. I have to tone down the power ideas though. Maybe just solid 1x18" subs and treble/mid boxes with 3 way crossovers or something... which is easily and cheaply achievable with Custom.Methinks custom cabs might be the way to go. Ok, no. 1: what brand amp.no. 2: Dual 15" - you'll never need it and it will sound muddy (I know I have a pair - many people here will agree).no. 3: Single 18 subs should do fine for most of the venues around here - until you start getting into big venues or extreme volume.no. 4: active crossovers for subs, no. 5: extra power amps for subs, no. 6: don't forget monitors.no. 7: Unless designed properly, custom may not be a great idea. Seriously, post on the forum before you buy anything, and pm me on aussie gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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