Need advise, might be the straw...

[Axisplayer]

I think it comes out of the $10. They cost you $6 and your wife ought to get at least $2 a shirt for setting up, lugging them around, dealing with folks, etc.

 

So you net $2 a shirt. Take out the $.50 a shirt royalty and put $1.50 in your pocket as well. You are getting close to a 25% return on investment, your wife makes money that comes back into your home, and the band gets a reasonable royalty for use of their name. You get a share back of the royalty because you are in the band.

[Fear My Potato]

What about possibly charging the other bands for use of the system and to run sound? I mean if you're doing the work to get the gear there and you're running sound, they have no right to even be touching it unless they pay.

 

If this is a three-way audition like it seems, why not tell them "Hey pay us and we'll run sound and make you sound good and all...or you can not pay us and risk the soundguy (me) being angry at you having something to gain from you sounding like {censored}..."

 

I have a feeling they'll pay. It's vaguely unprofessional and kind of mean, but then so is asking you to haul gear, play, run sound, and haul gear FOR FREE. If two members of your band are members of the club why can't they get you around this sheister audition?

[Rickr]

Axisplayer - I could live with that. So split the $.50 4 ways. We are getting rich ain't we. Average 5 shirts a night, 3 nights a month. Man, they'll be millionaires in about 45,000 years. Less if they invest it wisely.

 

Fear - That's just wrong. Actually, I know one of the bands playing, and I like the guys way to much to do that to them. They helped us get our first gig. If I do run sound, they'll sound as good as I can make 'em. Which as ohiopadude pointed out, with my system, (and my ability to run it) ain't going to be great.

 

Later

[Mick LoMauro]

In my 20 some years as a Musician and 17+ as a live mixer I have learned a few things.

 

1) NEVER work for free!!

A 50 cent whore will never be worth any more that 50 cents.

 

2) Charities:

Always work for a 'reduced' charitable fee. (Half off double fees) No one knows what you get paid outside of your circle.

You can always donate back at the end of the night if you feel the urge.

Also Local charities all know each other and will trade info so keep it all on the level price wise.

 

3) NEVER work for fee.

 

4) Never work for the 'We'll make sure you get something' rate.

 

5)Always be prepared for the worst....Anything you get is always better.

 

If you have any doubt in your mind about a situation(pay) get it in writing/contract and get non refundable deposits.

 

We all have favorite charities or are members of organizations and such.

Always go with your judgment of the situation, If it feels off it most likely is.

 

The most I have ever gotten out of a Charity event I didn't charge for was a compliment.

 

The worst was some broken gear.

 

The Tee Shirt deal........

I have been in the same spot. Get your money back out of the deal as soon as possible. You have to decide what the 'fair split' is

 

 

That's my 2 cents worth.

 

Mick

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh... and:

 

The headliner (that would be the band with the tour rig) NEVER opens. The warm-up band "gets" to open... while the crowd's sitting around eating watermelon and crab puff-balls and trying to talk and getting pissed off about the "loud band". After the system's all dialed in (with the warm-up band) and the crowd's shook off the after dinner sleepies... and is ready to party... that's when the headliner takes the stage.

 

I suggest you offer to the Eagles to do the show "for cost"... which would be:

 

1) What it would cost to hire a sound company to do the job, plus:

 

2) What the band members would make at their regular job for the hours involved, plus:

 

3) Your out-of-pocket expenses.

 

I think this last "good suggestion" deserves one of these:

[InACanProductions]

With the Tee Shirts if they didn't put up the money they're not entitled to the profits. If you owned your own company and you decided you were going to start selling a new product, you pay all the costs, have the product made and then sell it, would your employees be entitled to a split of the profits? No they'd get their normal salary, nothing more. Yeah you're using the band's name, but it looks like you're the one who pretty much runs the band. In my old band the other guitarist and I paid for everything. It was supposed to be spread out evenly among the 5 members but when it came time to pay the bill for our CDs, and tee shirts everyone else was short. So the guitarist and I put up all the loot, and we split all the money 50/50. Got our investment back and all the profits, we used the profits to buy more merch, then kept those profits, then when we disbanded we split the remaining money and ended out coming up ahead.

 

As for Sound and the use of your gear. What I think you should do that no one else has mentioned is play the show with your gear, and then break it all down. Let the other bands worry about their own PA system. And if the Eagels say that you're being unprofessional, tell them that a band that doesn't provide all the equipment they need to perform is unprofessional. What I find rediculous is that the Eagles expect you to bring the PA and then play first! That's abserd. I wouldn't pay a dime for a rental PA or a sound guy, just use your stuff and then don't let the other bands use it...let them know before hand that they are not welcome to use your gear so they can at least be prepared. If they say "why not?" tell them that your system isn't set up for outdoor festival shows. Not only will it be barely loud enough, but to run it for 3 bands at an hour a piece is a bit too much strain than you're willing to put the PA through. Of coarse this is only if you're determine to play the show. As soon as I heard the word FREE I would have shot down the idea. They want an audition make them a VHS tape. They want some free entertainment have them get out a washtub and some spoons because $0 = ZERO work. It wouldn't be the Music/Entertainment business if there wasn't a bottom line. And as others have said when you lower that bottom line it's almost impossible to raise it.

 

Concider risk vs. return. Is the return (the gigs you MAY get from the audition) worth the risk (chance that your gear can get trashed and you have nothing to show for it). If the Return isn't double the risk I won't take the job. When I do sound I charge $45/hour. Sometimes I'll cut a break if it's a repeat client, or if the gig is small. But if the gig involves lugging my gear up flights of steps, or not being able to park with in 50 feet of the venue then I'll pass on it because if I throw out my back then I'm not working for 2 weeks because of my lower back problems, and then I'm losing way more than the $45/hour from that 1 gig.

 

So my advice, don't even bother with the gig, but if you do only let your band use YOUR gear. Good Luck.

[Unalaska]

I'd think about the bring PA for only yourself if there wasn't one minor flaw: expendibles, thing that cost everytime you use the gear. Example: 9v batteries, gas, wear on the van, mic/speaker cables, strings, picks. You get the idea.

 

Sorry mark, it wasn't much of a rant I'll admit but I don't type as much as you. Two paragraphs for me is a rant.

 

My advice: DON'T DO THIS GIG!!!! Look, maybe a friend just went to the mergency room, maybe your kid has a baseball game, you gotta wash your hair. DON'T DO IT!!!

 

pete

[Rickr]

Thanks to everyone who responded. You people are great. My biggest complaint was that in my experience, once cheap (or free) always cheap. Seems like you guys agree. The rest of the band seem like the type that would go to one of those pay to play venues. I'm not trying to be conceited, but I'm way too good for pay to play. So I think this is a good place to draw a line in the sand. What the heck, need to know where I stand anyway. And if we break up, what am I giving up. At the rate these guys are going, a bunch of free gigs. No big deal.

The worst of it is we already did a free gig for the local Eagles club. They never even came up and recognized us, introduced us, or gave us credit for the show. At that time I told the band I would no longer do it for free. We get paid, and if we choose to donate the money to whatever cause we're playing for at the end of the night, fine. At least then we get to announce to the crowd that we are donating back.

 

As far as t-shirts - glad to know I'm not the only one who isn't quite sure how to handle this situation. I think clearance sale over the next couple of gigs to get my investment back, then forget the whole thing is probably best.

 

Thanks again,

Rick

[Old Steve]

When a band is literally just starting out, there are times (at least around here) where your only option is to play a 'showcase' gig for free. The difference is that you're limited to about a half hour set, and there's ususally a house PA...sometimes even drums and amps which you're required to use. The bars that do this usually schedule these gigs on Wednesday or Thursday nights, and then if they like you, they'll bring you back for a Friday or Saturday gig where you do get paid. The only other time I'll work for free is when I'm just having fun...a friend is having a big backyard barbeque and a bunch of musician/friends will all be getting together to jam. In that case, it's not really a 'gig', and all of the musicians usually all know each other and chip in to make everything work. This gig doesn't fall into those categories. Bottom line, I agree...if you devalue yourself, you'll have a lot of trouble ever making any money later on.

 

As for the t-shirts deal, I'd keep 100% of the profits if it were me. You owe the band absolutely nothing. You TRIED to get the rest of the guys into the shirt deal, yet none of them invested any time or money in the process. The band is getting a free ride already from the fact that people will be advertising for your band whenever they wear your shirts.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if they want to be "partners" in your t-shirt selling business, they need to buy into the partnership...not just wait to see if there's any profit that they can move in on. At this point, if they wanted to "partner" with you, I'd calculate all of your costs to date (including something for your time and effort) and let them buy a percentage of the business. So if you've invested $500 in t-shirts and sweat, and a member is willing to give you $100 to buy into the shirt biz, then he'd get 20% of the profits. In business there are no free rides...only investors get to share the profits.

[Axisplayer]

You are right that that the shirts are a business. In business, you have what are known as Merchandising Rights which are standard industry practice. That is why you can't print shirts that say "The Who" without paying them a royalty for use of their name. They own the name and are entitled to a share of any profits made from that name.

 

This band has probably never trademarked or registered their name. If they have, you are LEGALLY obligated to pay them a royalty for use of it. If they have not, they are your friends and band-business partners and you are using the band name to make money without paying them anything for the value associated with the name. Just because they didn't know to trademark it doesn't mean that morally you don't owe them something for it. You are NOT supposed to be a part of the band AND willing to undermine THAT business for the sake of selling merchandise on the side and keeping everything.

 

If I was them, it wouldn't fly. Now if they said they weren't interested in the deal, but said you COULD do that if you wanted to, you owe them nothing. But you either need the permission, or you should pay them something....

 

Just my $.02....YMMV (Your Morals May Vary)

[mrcpro]

hey Rickr

 

I've played my share of Eagles jobs...sounds like you have too...but I've never heard of anything like this. You're correct in that promo usually doesn't work with these guys, an audition or reference from another club is often what gets you in, but I've never heard of doing a member function for free. If it were a highly desirable lodge, our band might still do it...reluctantly.... but I'm sure everyone would be in agreement with me on this...one hour (just like an inside audition) with no PA provided for the rest of the afternoon for anything...not even for their own announcements or speakers...without a rental fee. I mean it's an audition, and I'd stress that to the trustees and manager.

 

References are really useful. If you are doing a good job in the lodge you're in, have the room manager and head trustee get in contact with their counterparts at the other lodge. Try to work something out along those lines. Most lodges are very picky about the kind of music they want...low volume levels and a broad knowledge of music styles other than rock are essential. This is something most bands today are unwilling or unable to do. So you'll get your chance sooner or later, but maybe not this time.

[lucho_84]

what are "Eagle's jobs"?? I'm stumped. Talking about the band? I odn't think so

[Glyder]

Eagles,Moose,Elks,VFW,American Legion,AMVETS,Italian American Club,German Club, etc... Social Clubs usualy requiring memberships and sometimes certain requirements for memberships as in the case of the VFW etc...which are for veterans of foriegn wars and there families.

[salthead1]

 

Originally posted by Axisplayer I think it comes out of the $10. They cost you $6 and your wife ought to get at least $2 a shirt for setting up, lugging them around, dealing with folks, etc. So you net $2 a shirt. Take out the $.50 a shirt royalty and put $1.50 in your pocket as well. You are getting close to a 25% return on investment, your wife makes money that comes back into your home, and the band gets a reasonable royalty for use of their name. You get a share back of the royalty because you are in the band.

 

 

I think Axisplayer has the right idea here. The royalty comes off the full price. And if the band members aren't happy with their share of the royalty, then let them front the money for the shirts and put their wife/girlfriend/whatever out there doing sales.

 

As far as the free gig, I personally think you're being used. I've never heard of the Eagles club, but it sounds like a service club (ie. Moose, Lions)

 

A long time ago, a wise photographer gave me this advice. Never Ever give your work away for free. Not even to a relative. Because if you give it away, you're paying to do the job since you'll not be covering your expenses.

 

Now, a personal story. My wife was approached by the local Soroptomist's to do vocal entertainment at their holiday party at a restaurant. She accepted the job, and told them what her normal fee was. Immediately, she was told that they would expect her to donate the performance because it's a community service organization.

 

I told my wife that if the restaurant was donating its services, then I wouldn't object to her donating hers as well. Of course, you know what the answer was.

 

The funniest part was when my wife asked the contact about the club and how one becomes a Soroptomist member. She was promptly told that since she neither managed nor owned a business she wasn't eligible to join. What nerve! They wanted free entertainment, but "don't think you're as good as us."

 

Bottom line, Your gear cost you. It didn't cost your band mates anything. When it gets trashed, it is not their problem to get it fixed and I'm sure they'll be of no help convincing someone else to pay. They've obviously been spoiled by you providing them sound for free.

 

I'm hoping that I did my part to heat up the rant.

[padudeohio]

These "social service" clubs are what we affectionately refer to as

 

 

"Animal Clubs" and what Rick's band is doing is the "Animal Club" circuit.

 

 

(Moose, Elk, Lions, Eagles etc.)

[mrcpro]

These private clubs have some plusses...they pay well and they usually close earlier than public bars so you can get home at a decent hour. But a lot of the time it feels like you're playing to your parents. My local Eagles lodge is an exception...larger than the others with a more diverse membership. Modern country is acceptable there, and more rock than the others. I actually joined this lodge. I guess 1/4 to 1/3 of my jobs are Eagles/Elks/Moose/Legion, and that's about right for me...I get to dust off my western and swing material and not get bogged down in it. I sometimes do them as a one man band, sometimes with other guys, who must be picked very carefully...quiet, versitile, laid back and absolutely no fiery hotheads...

[RoboPimp]

Originally posted by mrcpro ...quiet, versitile, laid back and absolutely no fiery hotheads...

 

aww shucks... guess that leaves me out...

[Guest Anonymous]

Originally posted by salthead1 Now, a personal story. My wife was approached by the local Soroptomist's to do vocal entertainment at their holiday party at a restaurant. She accepted the job, and told them what her normal fee was. Immediately, she was told that they would expect her to donate the performance because it's a community service organization.

This attitude never ceases to amaze me. A number of years ago the local live events coordinator for the community "arts commission" explained to me "how it is": Regardless of the fact that I have to pay for the expenses of owning and operating production equipment, I've been given the opportunity to work and pay for this equipment. He expressed his belief that it's unconscionable to charge for "services rendered" when it's associated with "the arts"; although, his job is a salary position and publicly funded... but that's different since his job involves real work. When I suggested that he could also take his earnings and purchase equipment to supply the local performing arts needs, he said that's out of the question, since he's disabled (battling substance abuse issues) and cannot perform manual labor. He further explain his frustrations of having to deal with "locals" like myself, but since public funding was drying up it wasn't in the budget to hire "real" production companies from outside the local area.

[Fear My Potato]

Originally posted by Rickr Fear - That's just wrong. Actually, I know one of the bands playing, and I like the guys way to much to do that to them. They helped us get our first gig. If I do run sound, they'll sound as good as I can make 'em. Which as ohiopadude pointed out, with my system, (and my ability to run it) ain't going to be great.

 

If you know one of the bands then definately don't do it, especially not if they helped you. Normally I'm all for good vibes amongst bands, but my take would be that if you explained this lousy situation to the other bands and they still used your gear without paying, then they are {censored}ting on you and taking advantage of this just as much as the club is.

[Bassmec]

I would say they are having a laugh. Get a few quid out of the other bands.

Fit the pa with an old coin operated electricity meter. Preferably that only works with siver dollars. otherwise use an interesting effect on their vocals like unintellegent pitch shifter.

[abzurd]

I'm getting in late on this.

 

1) Unless it's a charity event, play nothing for free. Let the other members "give back" with THEIR cut of the, would be money, and THEIR sourced PA system!

 

 

2) You have a long time before you have to worry about royalties from shirt sales. Seems like they owe somebody for fronting the PA system

 

 

BTW, the post above brings up a good point.

 

Where's the electricity for this 3 band "Eaglefest" coming from?

 

For that matter, where's the "stage" area coming from?

 

And if it rains, or even threatens to?

 

Bottom line is, YOU will be the scapegoat for everything. If it rains and you can't play, its your fault. If the one circuit that's available (possible) isn't enough, it's your fault. Heck, if the other 2 bands don't sound good, it's gonna get partially blamed on the system.

 

I say, tell The Eagles to "fly away"!

[Guest Anonymous]

After a little more thought on this subject, I believe I have the final solution to this situation:

 

1) Get a quote to hire a soundcompany to provide all the gear (sound, lights, backline, support personell) so all the involved players just plug in and play, (the scenerio the Eagles propose for the other two bands).

 

2) Divide the cost of hiring the soundcompany among all the players auditioning which shouldn't be much more than about $75 ea. Let the other bands know how much $ will be expected from each player that intends to audition.

 

Then see how many auditionists are up for attend the audition?

 

See, then you aren't the bad guy. Just explain that you might not have the "rig for the job" (and you don't want to disappoint the other bands) and you've gotten a bid from a soundcompany that has the suitable gear... and here's what it will cost. Of-course, after all the other bands bail... then offer to bring your band and rig in for the 1 hour audition. Of-course, since the Eagles were fixing to get a free 3 hour show... but with only one band auditioning for 1 hour... that's not going to fill the evening with entertainment... then offer to stay on and play the remaining 2 hours for your regular rate.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Audiopile After a little more thought on this subject, I believe I have the final solution to this situation: 1) Get a quote to hire a soundcompany to provide all the gear (sound, lights, backline, support personell) so all the involved players just plug in and play, (the scenerio the Eagles propose for the other two bands). 2) Divide the cost of hiring the soundcompany among all the players auditioning which shouldn't be much more than about $75 ea. Let the other bands know how much $ will be expected from each player that intends to audition. Then see how many auditionists are up for attend the audition?

 

That's what I've been thinking, too. And man, have we all been there or what, guys?

 

People can only take advantage of you if you let them. And, it's really just human nature to want to use a resource that's "free," meaning your PA. You've failed to set them straight that it isn't "free."

 

I don't think an angry lecture is the answer at this point. I think Mark's solution above is just about right, except I'd educate my bandmates in a two part approach to get the maximum "buy in" on their part.

 

(1) Tell them, "Sh*t, guys, there's no way 'our' PA is gonna do this outdoor gig. We'll end up sounding like crap and probably have to spend a bunch of money fixing fried out stuff when it's over. While the other bands skate!"

 

"So let's hire a PA and someone to run it, that way it won't be our problem if anything fries and we can just have fun playing without all the loading and unloading. In case we want to go that way, I called around and got this quote from ABC Sound and it comes to about $xxx.xx from each of us. I'm up for it if you guys are."

 

*pause for look of horror to develop properly on each bandmate's face*

 

(2) "I know it kinda sucks that we'll be paying the whole amount, but didn't we agree to bring the PA?"

 

At this point one or more of your bandmates will suggest the other bands pay. It wasn't a problem when it was all coming out of your pocket, but now it's their pockets.

 

A discussion will ensue, and a consensus will be formed to either not play or approach the other bands to pay their share. You'll be out of the hot seat because you'll have finally stood up for yourself, without drama or rancor, as you should have done a long time ago. If there are any repercussions, stick to your guns in a matter of fact, no anger way. Say, well, this is what it will cost to do it with a PA that can handle it and not suck, do we want to do this or not? And then keep in mind it takes human beings a little while to adapt to change and they've grown accustomed to the idea that your PA is "free."

 

This is one of the reasons I don't do "democracy" bands anymore. I'm equally OK with being the boss or being a sideman. Both have their advantages. What I don't like and won't tolerate is being told what to do with my own gear and not being fairly compensated for that. People may be disappointed, but they'll actually respect you more if you stick up for yourself in a non-hostile, firm, predictable way.

 

You know, just like disciplining children.

 

Generally we get ourselves into these situations gradually, so that no one step seems too bad but one day we find ourselves in a situation like you're in. It can happen because we believe we wouldn't be accepted in the band without the gear we bring to it, because we want the band to work more than the other guys do, or just because we're nice guy team players who jump in and do whatever is needed.

 

One time I got so sick of being in your situation I quit the band I was in and joined another, and never mentioned I owned any PA and lights. The new band rented everything. I wanted to see if anyone would hire me just for what I brought to the table as a musician!

 

And then there's my "Stupid Story" about the time I freaked out about my band refusing to kick in on blown drivers, and started busting up chairs and tables at the club until ALL of us lost money on the show.

 

But ALL of these problems go away when you give up democracy bands and get a clear understanding of who is responsible for what at the beginning.

 

Good luck. Do what Mark & I suggest above, it's the beginning of a new era for you in bands. If you don't stick up for yourself no one else will.

 

Terry D.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by MrKnobs *pause for look of horror to develop properly on each bandmate's face*

 

Hey!!! I know that "look". I believe it's the exact same look that was on my face the first time:

 

1) I was faced with multiple amp and speaker repair quotes after a disaster.

 

2) I checked the pricetag of some "real" pro SR gear.

 

3) I opened the letter from the leader of the first "real" band I played in which contained my 1099 for my year's income from the band as a private contractor (which I owed Social Security and Federal Income Tax on).

 

4) The first time I got a quote for real business insurance on the sound rig and truck.

 

5) The first time I signed to do a National Act in a ballroom without fronting the show... and when I arrived with 10 tons (literally) of gear I was faced with the fact that the ballroom was up 3 narrow flights of fire escape stairs with no freight elevator and no real power in the ballroom.

 

6) The first time I signed to do a National Act about 200 miles from home and realized during set-up that I had left the power supplies for the FOH and Monitor consoles at the shop. And... after arriving back home when the show was over, realized I had left the mic case (40 hole jobbie... full!) sitting on the bleachers at the venue.

 

7) The first time I signed to do a National Act and needed to rent a splitter snake big enough to match the consoles I had rented... and after driving 350 miles (one-way... the day before the show) the rental outfit told me it hadn't returned from the last rental and they didn't know when it would be back.

 

8) Oh... and I almost forgot this one (thump, thump, thump)... the first time I subcontracted big enough FOH and monitor consoles to cover a rider from another soundcompany, and the runner for the other soundcompany didn't show (peroid). And then the second time I subcontracted the same boards from the same soundcompany and the runner arrived about 10 minutes before Showtime (4 hours after soundcheck). And the third time I subcontracted these same boards from the same soundcompany, and the runner arrived with two FOH consoles.

 

9) And the time I drove 350 miles one way to rent a B-3 to cover a rider and arrived at the venue to discover the Leslie cord was not included (well... it was, but it was the wrong one). 1400 miles wasted... we got through the show with an aged Roland. And then the second time I drove 350 miles one way to rent the same B-3 from the same rental outfit... and this time I made sure the correct Leslie cord was included, but when I arrived at the venue and the artist (3 Dog Night) fired up the B-3... smoke poured out of every crack in the damn thing. We got through the show with the same aged Roland. Another 1400 miles of driving for nothing.

 

10) Oh... (thump, thump, thump)... the early Sunday morning (3:30 AM) phone call I received from my landlady informing me that the 2" overhead sprinkler mainline had broken in my rented portion of the strip mall where I had my shop (and stored all my gear) and the water was about 4 to 5ft. deep in my shop.

[agedhorse]

I left a spare FOH console at a venue once... locked in a storage room, fortunately it was a regular client's venue so no big deal but boy did I feel sheepish when I got the call the next day asking if I wanted to buy a slightly used console!