Members 80zboy Posted August 5, 2004 Members Share Posted August 5, 2004 I was just reading a post where someone suggested compressing the Kick. What's the general consensus here on that? And IF I was to try it, what type of settings would I want to use on my compressor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lucho_84 Posted August 5, 2004 Members Share Posted August 5, 2004 dbx has a good paper on compressioin. definately a good read for a beginner with compression. check out their site and look for the whte papers. it's called "compression 101" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted August 5, 2004 Members Share Posted August 5, 2004 A compressor is nearly essential in a PA system for a rock band on the kick. It will raise your "average" level and help to protect against overdriving the system. Most human perseption responds to average but your electronics respond to peak levels. It's like being to stick your finger into boiling water quickly (peak) ... you can't leave it long (average) or it gets hot fast. If you compress too much, you'll begin to sound like a loud boom box but with something like a kick that is probably a plus in most instances. As a starting point I'd select a ratio of between 8-16:1, a very short attack time and a medium to long release 300-500ms. Set the threshold so that you see 6-10 dB of compression on the meters with every kick of the drum. If you adjust the trim you'll have to re-adjust the threshold. You may need to add a few dB of gain on the output of the compressor to make up for the compression. 10db of compression is roughly equivalent to 4 times the number of speakers and amps you currently are using (whatever that is) before adding the compressor. It'll save you from having to buy a bigger van. There's no free lunch however. Realize that you are running each kick longer and so you are heating up the voice coils more. You are actually running wider but no taller so to speak. This is where it gets tricky to recommend the appropriate amp size as bigger than the recommended RMS value can cause havoc quickly (clipping IS limiting of a sort, but not so nice sounding). Of course all of this is just a starting point as all the elements of your system and your musical style will dictate your final outcome. One other note for DJs. It doesn't apply nearly as much to music where the bass/kick is already heavily compressed on the CDs ... you're already there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted August 6, 2004 Members Share Posted August 6, 2004 If you're going to compress it, might as well gate it too. Chopping it off will shorten the time that it's moving the speakers and help reduce low-end feedback due to the compressor raising the lower levels. If you use a gate, make sure you inform the drummer. Believe it or not, some drummers actually play with a bit of dynamics. A light touch on the kick during quieter passages might not trigger a gate to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mick LoMauro Posted August 6, 2004 Members Share Posted August 6, 2004 Originally posted by dboomer A compressor is nearly essential in a PA system for a rock band on the kick. It will raise your "average" level and help to protect against overdriving the system. Agreed a Properly implemented good quality comp can save your System Most human perseption responds to average but your electronics respond to peak levels. It's like being to stick your finger into boiling water quickly (peak) ... you can't leave it long (average) or it gets hot fast. If you compress too much, you'll begin to sound like a loud boom box but with something like a kick that is probably a plus in most instances. Why would I want a boxy sounding Kick drum???????A well tuned drum played through a well tuned system sized for the gig should sound big and ROUND. As a starting point I'd select a ratio of between 8-16:1, a very short attack time and a medium to long release 300-500ms. Set the threshold so that you see 6-10 dB of compression on the meters with every kick of the drum. If you adjust the trim you'll have to re-adjust the threshold. You may need to add a few dB of gain on the output of the compressor to make up for the compression. 8-16:1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That's basically limiting. Please not on my kick. At that point there are no longer any dynamics left to the player.If there is that much compression there is something wrong with your gain structure elsewhere or the system is inadequate for the gig.I have almost never used more than 4:1 just to squish the heaver hits down a few Db and keep the channel from overloading. Gate if needed.I am not calling your method wrong but it doesn't work form me.Every engineer has their own tricks. This has been my 2 centsYMMV Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 80zboy Posted August 6, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 6, 2004 Well I've heard from some of the guys and the opinions seem to differ a fair bit. I'd really like to hear from some of the 'old hands' around here... bassknave, soundguy, agedhorse, audiopile, Old Steve etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted August 6, 2004 Members Share Posted August 6, 2004 Originally posted by 80zboy Well I've heard from some of the guys and the opinions seem to differ a fair bit. Well they are just that opinions. Mick is entirely correct but he is just looking for something other than what I'm generally looking for. In rock or pop stuff I don't see the kick as having hardly any dynamics ... it's pretty much full thump on every time it punches. When I do a jazz gig I would do it more like Mick suggests. He says if you need that much compression there you probably need a bigger system. Well I imagine most who read here don't have a bunch (or any) extra in the sub department. Just in case you weren't sure ... limiting and compressing are the same thing, just different amounts. There is that point in the middle where you could call it either and be correct. You have two models presented here. They are both valid, reasonable approaches to your question. I'll bet when you try it you'll select one or the other or be in-between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ATOMICDOG1 Posted August 6, 2004 Members Share Posted August 6, 2004 Hmmm, personally, I mix a lot of different music, everything from folk rock to grindcore, and I have to go with Mick on this one. I rarely compress the kick more than 4 or 5 to 1 if at all. I've never really found the need to. My system is usually calibrated quite well and the nuances of the kick (in all but the most brutal metal) are more importaint than the extra little bit I could squeeze out of the system. I also don't compress the main mix (there is a hard limiter there tho, for BE's with no volume brakes or common sense, lol). I also only gate the kick enough to keep the low end from feeding back or taking out a bad overtone from some drummers who can't tune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ATOMICDOG1 Posted August 6, 2004 Members Share Posted August 6, 2004 Almost forgot, generally speaking, anytime you use a ratio of 10:1 or more its called limiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted August 6, 2004 Members Share Posted August 6, 2004 I will generally gate a kick before compressing it, but I also do more acoustic music and I am cautious to keep my gate attenuation to about 12 dB max when open. Just adds a bit more definition. I may also compress the peaks of the kick, but again generally only 3-4:1 and maybe 6dB of compression, just a bit of fattening without squashing it. This is assuming a good sounding kick to begin with of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ponch_A_Rella Posted August 6, 2004 Members Share Posted August 6, 2004 When was the last time you heard any dynamic changes in the bass drum from any rock band??? How about never... So Compress away. However you might not want a 10:1 comp if you are doing some jazz band... but at the same time you might not be micing the bass drum at a jazz gig anyway because the totally anal jazz drummer will give you some BS about not having a port in his reso head because it destroys all the tonal qualities and natural resonance and instead of close micing his kit he will probably insist on 5 strategically placed overhead mics so that the true resonance of his entire kit is accurately reproduced.... --------------------PS. You want a old school trick at getting that HUGE 80's Drum sound? Actually this works for getting that huge 80's anything sound... Journey style Vocals or huge guitars.. whatever.... Say you got drums on channels 1-7 (dont include cymbal channels) send 1-7 to Main L&R Out.... but also send them to a Buss (Say Sub 1) Insert a compressor on Bus 1 and compress the {censored} out of it.. I mean really clamp down hard. Then send that out to Main L&R Out too... bammm you get that huge really cool sound.You can do this with anything to get that sound.. vocals, guitars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted August 7, 2004 Members Share Posted August 7, 2004 I tend to compress around 4:1 maybe more if I have a stubborn drummer who's inconsistent. I was running sound for a blues jam in a large room with on my top cabs powered by an RMX1450 (one channel, 4ohm load) and I didn't use a compressor. I watched my speakers (15's) hitting the grills with evry kick. Mind you that the grills are bowed in a bit so the thrown was only 5/8" at least and 1" at most. I put a compressor in and got the same percieved volume without the cone moving hardly at all. That's why I use a compressor. p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted August 7, 2004 Members Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by Ponch_A_Rella ... the totally anal jazz drummer will give you some BS about not having a port in his reso head because it destroys all the tonal qualities and natural resonance and instead of close micing his kit he will probably insist on 5 strategically placed overhead mics so that the true resonance of his entire kit is accurately reproduced.... And that drummer is absolutely right. Traditional jazz kits aren't the same animals as rock kits. Dynamics and tones are far more important in jazz than squeezing every dB out of every drum hit. The jazz drummer hears what he hears, and that's what he wants the audience to hear. Put the mics as close to his ears as possible. Turn 'em on, leave 'em flat, and move on to the next inputs. (Add a kick mic to fill in the bottom, but don't expect to hear slap or snap -- it's not going to be there because it's not supposed to be there!) Can you tell that my philosophy on sound mixing is to make it louder, not change its tone? Too many mix guys have a tendency to mix for themselves, when IMO our purpose is to mix for the style of music and the audience. That's not to say that I don't act as a producer when it's called for. Rock music requires production in addition to loudness. Add that delay to the voice. Compress every input. Use different verbs on the (gated) snare and toms. Make those subs jump out of their slots with every kick hit. But now imagine how ridiculous it would sound if you used the same techniques for a bluegrass band ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ATOMICDOG1 Posted August 7, 2004 Members Share Posted August 7, 2004 Originally posted by Ponch_A_Rella When was the last time you heard any dynamic changes in the bass drum from any rock band??? How about never... So Compress away. Thats true if all do is hard rock, but I do a lot of mixing for acoustic based rock and bands that do Dave Matthews type stuff. They definitely have dynamic changes in their material. If I were to compress it the same way I do on a gridcore kick, it would sound really out of place on the quiet parts. You have to take it on a case by case basis. There are a lot of times I don't compress at all. If the kick doesn't need it why mess with it? If I have a guy who's a consistant player, and the drum sounds good, and the kick is fitting into the mix fine, and I have plenty of volume and head room, whats the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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