Alright, I did my homework, will this be adequate?

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by GCDEF I'm betting you paid a little more than Carvin prices too.

 

Up front (origional purchase price) being the only cost consideration? If so, then yea, that's true.

 

 

Originally posted by GCDEF I doubt he can get Meyer and EAW for $1200.

 

That's true.

 

At this point, I'm guessing I'd be about $150K (+/- $50K) ahead (not counting interest) if I knew then what I know now... and/or had taken the good advice I'd been offered (many times, and for free) and didn't blow $1,200 here, there, everywhere, over, and over, and over... figuring out for myself that cheap tools are generally not cost effective.

 

It was sobering for me to realize something about my old Chevy van... the one I bought real cheap about 15 years ago... and finally gave away a couple years ago: I bought the van for $800. It was kind of ugly, and uncomfortable, and didn't handle very well, and got lousy gas milage, but it was cheap... $800 including a new batter, tires, and brakes. I put about 200,000 miles on that van... at about 8 miles per gallon. That's 25,000 gallons of gas. At just $2/gal... that's $50K. The van I replaced the old cheap clunker with gets about 20 mpg... and rides, and looks much nicer than the old $800 clunk. Although the newer, nicer van cost almost 5 times as much to buy as the old van, I figure long term, the new van is gonna be $30K cheaper to own and drive.

[GCDEF]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile Up front (origional purchase price) being the only cost consideration? If so, then yea, that's true. That's true. At this point, I'm guessing I'd be about $150K (+/- $50K) ahead (not counting interest) if I knew then what I know now... and/or had taken the good advice I'd been offered (many times, and for free) and didn't blow $1,200 here, there, everywhere, over, and over, and over... figuring out for myself that cheap tools are generally not cost effective. It was sobering for me to realize something about my old Chevy van... the one I bought real cheap about 15 years ago... and finally gave away a couple years ago: I bought the van for $800. It was kind of ugly, and uncomfortable, and didn't handle very well, and got lousy gas milage, but it was cheap... $800 including a new batter, tires, and brakes. I put about 200,000 miles on that van... at about 8 miles per gallon. That's 25,000 gallons of gas. At just $2/gal... that's $50K. The van I replaced the old cheap clunker with gets about 20 mpg... and rides, and looks much nicer than the old $800 clunk. Although the newer, nicer van cost almost 5 times as much to buy as the old van, I figure long term, the new van is gonna be $30K cheaper to own and drive.

 

 

Not a really valid analogy as there is no mpg equivalent between lower priced gear and top of the line. I'll agree that the original poster's choices weren't the best and that upgrading several times is more expensive than buying the good stuff the first time, but sometimes that's just the way it has to be done. For the money he has to work with, there were better choices, even in Carvin's line.

[agedhorse]

 

Originally posted by GCDEF Not a really valid analogy as there is no mpg equivalent between lower priced gear and top of the line. I'll agree that the original poster's choices weren't the best and that upgrading several times is more expensive than buying the good stuff the first time, but sometimes that's just the way it has to be done. For the money he has to work with, there were better choices, even in Carvin's line.

 

 

Oh sure there is... it's called maintenance and repair costs and the added costs of upgrading as required.

[GCDEF]

 

Originally posted by agedhorse Oh sure there is... it's called maintenance and repair costs and the added costs of upgrading as required.

 

 

Maintenance costs on Carvn, Yamaha, Peavey, etc. are minimal. Nothing that would compare to the difference between 8 and 20 mpg in a vehicle. You could replace a Carvin PA many times over for the cost of Meyer/EAW gear. For the average weekend warrior type band, that kind of investment just isn't warranted.

[agedhorse]

Maintenance & repair costs on cheap gear is going to be more expensive... especially if you drive it hard. Many Meyer products for example have been going 20 years with no repair costs.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by GCDEF For the average weekend warrior type band, that kind of investment just isn't warranted.

 

Possibly... depending on your aspirations and talent. I suggest matching the gear (all of the gear, including the backline gear) to the talent and marketing potential.

 

FWIW: After a few years of owning my origional Carvin PA, I came to grips that it just wasn't cutting it. I seem to remember paying about $600 ea. for the FOH cabinets delivered. I believe I sold them for $100 ea. (about the value of the D-140's that were loaded in them). It seems like the powered box mixer was about $500, and the horns were about $300 ea. The system was about $2,500... I think I got about $500 out of that stuff when I sold it after a couple years. I guess I only took about a $2K hit...

 

Back then, my day job paid $1.83/hr. My take home pay was probably about $1.50/hr. I guess I had to work at my day job for about 1,300 or 1,400 hours to pay for the realized depreciation on that equipment purchase.

[GCDEF]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile Possibly... depending on your aspirations and talent. I suggest matching the gear (all of the gear, including the backline gear) to the talent and marketing potential. FWIW: After a few years of owning my origional Carvin PA, I came to grips that it just wasn't cutting it. I seem to remember paying about $600 ea. for the FOH cabinets delivered. I believe I sold them for $100 ea. (about the value of the D-140's that were loaded in them). It seems like the powered box mixer was about $500, and the horns were about $300 ea. The system was about $2,500... I think I got about $500 out of that stuff when I sold it after a couple years. I guess I only took about a $2K hit... I used the gear for about 100 shows. I guess it only cost me about $200/show to own that gear for a couple years. I was making about $100 per show back then... playing bass and supplying the PA. I only went backwards about $100 per show. My day job back then paid $1.83/hr. My after tax income was probably about $1.50/hr. I guess I only had to work about 67 hours a week at my day job to pay for my out of pocket depreciation of the gear I was using in my average weekend warrior type band.

 

 

$2000 / 100 shows = $20 per show, so the rest of your math is off. However, had you been making $100 per show with $100,000 worth of gear, your numbers would have been worse.

 

I don't think that's Carvin's fault. The same would be true had you bought Yamaha or Peavey too. There's always going to be a point of diminishing returns and the point where extra investment isn't worth it. I'll be among the first to say that $1200 isn't enough money to buy a respectable PA for a working band, but up that number to $5,000 and you can put something servicable together for a weekend club band. Up it to $10,000 which is about where I am and you can get a very nice system.

 

I don't know at this point if you're arguing against Carvin in particular or just low budget PAs in general, but I've used quite a bit of gear from Carvin, Peavey, Yorkville, Yamaha. FWIW, my Allen & Heath mixer that I've had for about 6 months now already has a bad channel on it. The only problem I had with my Carvin C1644P after three years was a board needed to be reseated. I'm going to sell the A&H and get another Carvin.

[Marko]

I remember when I was younger, I seemed to have a bit more $$$ than my buddies (or should I say they had even less than I ), and when discussing purchases, I would regularly bring up "value", you know, the same "buy once cry once" advise, (very good advice, of course). Once I notice one of my buddies face turning red, and he yelled at me in frustration "You just don't understand, Mark... I just can't afford it!".

 

I was taken aback, even offended, but after a while it sunk in. I try to be more careful and understanding now; there is something to that... take it for what it's worth.

 

ps. this is not aimed at anyone or any comment. Advise given on these threads are typically excellent and very considerate, and I for one, appreciate it.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by GCDEF $2000 / 100 shows = $20 per show, so the rest of your math is off. However, had you been making $100 per show with $100,000 worth of gear, your numbers would have been worse. I don't think that's Carvin's fault. The same would be true had you bought Yamaha or Peavey too. There's always going to be a point of diminishing returns and the point where extra investment isn't worth it. I'll be among the first to say that $1200 isn't enough money to buy a respectable PA for a working band, but up that number to $5,000 and you can put something servicable together for a weekend club band. Up it to $10,000 which is about where I am and you can get a very nice system. I don't know at this point if you're arguing against Carvin in particular or just low budget PAs in general, but I've used quite a bit of gear from Carvin, Peavey, Yorkville, Yamaha. FWIW, my Allen & Heath mixer that I've had for about 6 months now already has a bad channel on it. The only problem I had with my Carvin C1644P after three years was a board needed to be reseated. I'm going to sell the A&H and get another Carvin.

 

No, I'm not arguing against Carvin, or any other mfg. I'm arguing against incrementally slow and painful learning curves. And I'm arguing that you can't budget 2% or 5% or 20% of what's the standard of the industry... and compete on positive Karma. Thinking you can take a shortcut, and keep taking shortcuts will ultimately leave you in the ditch of mediocrity.

 

Try lemonade made with about 10% of the commonly used amount of sugar some time... and then visualize trying to market that stuff.

[mparsons]

Let me make an analogy...

 

A cheap, $200 guitar won't sound, feel, or play anywhere near as good as a nice $1000 or $2000 or $8000 guitar, but it will still be a guitar, and it will be functional.

 

Likewise a Marshall MG halfstack won't sound anywhere near as good as a Mesa Boogie or a nice Fender, but it will still work to amplify your sound.

 

Will the PA I put together -work- to amplify vocals, and after upgrading to more speakers, keyboards and drums? Not necessarily sound good, but just something to get us going?

 

Of course, later on we can upgrade to high quality parts, but we simply can't afford to go with high, or even medium, quality ( high school kids etc. ).

 

Trust me I am picky about quality, I would love to shell out the 10K to get something nice but I can't afford to do that.

 

Thanks again for all the help.

[agedhorse]

I think the point Mark's trying to make is that if you plan more carefully, and buy equipment on the upgrade path that is still the best quality equipment and best perrformance in it's class/price range, the upgrade path won't be nearly so painful nor costly in the long run.

 

For example, the resale value of the Yamaha pieces of that era were vastly higher than the Carvin or even Peavy pieces.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by mparsons Not necessarily sound good, but just something to get us going?

 

 

Get you going doing what?

 

Yes, a bicycle might be a better means of transportation than walking, depending on the application, and a bicycle is a heck of a lot cheaper than a pick-up... but a bicycle doesn't work very well to get firewood... and neither does walking.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons A cheap, $200 guitar won't sound, feel, or play anywhere near as good as a nice $1000 or $2000 or $8000 guitar, but it will still be a guitar, and it will be functional.

 

Yes, but I'll suggest a $200 guitar is probably not a preformance grade guitar. Also, if the $200 guitar is lousy enough, you might give up on playing guitar cause it sucks... which would be tragic if you're otherwise cut-out to play guitar, but you give up due to frustration with the instrument.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons Likewise a Marshall MG halfstack won't sound anywhere near as good as a Mesa Boogie or a nice Fender, but it will still work to amplify your sound.

 

I'll suggest the "get us started" PA you're looking at wouldn't compare with a Marshall MG halfstack.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons Of course, later on we can upgrade to high quality parts, but we simply can't afford to go with high, or even medium, quality ( high school kids etc. ).

 

Ok, well, if you stick with it, you're undoubtedly gonna want to upgrade. There's an old saying: If you can't afford to do it right the first time, you can't afford to do it again.

 

This is your call. I'm here to tell you that doing it on a shoestring budget and then incrementally improving over time is by far the most expensive way to go... both money and time wise. You will not be 20 forever.

 

Also, doing it on a shoestring budget and settling for cheap is very frustrating. I don't know of anyone who's long term enjoyed anything approaching true success (or fullfillment) starting at the bottom. If you start at the bottom, you tend to stay pretty close to the bottom... or quit.

 

Generally by the time a lot my peers hit 40, they had a house full of cheap plastic stuff, and a garage full of cheap plastic stuff, and a yard, basement, and storage shed full of cheap plastic stuff... to say nothing of the cubic mile of cheap plastic stuff they contributed to a landfill somewhere. I'd rather have less, and focus on doing fewer things better.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons Trust me I am picky about quality,

 

Players seem to be a whole lot pickier about their instrument and instrument amp than the PA. I'll suggest that if the player was actually out in the audience, hearing what the audience hears... and if the player was genuinely as caring about pleasing the audience as pleasing themself, they'd be a whole lot pickier about the PA.

 

It'a amazing how many folks I've played music with who have never actually heard themselves preform, many of these folks have played professionally for decades. I play drums and bass well enough to sit-in for players, so that when they ask "how does it sound?" I'll say: here, lemme play for a minute and you go out and listen. Many (most) are STUNNED... and not in a good way.

 

Sad thing is, very few ever even ask how it sounds out front.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons I would love to shell out the 10K to get something nice but I can't afford to do that.

 

Well... a few years back, I needed a warehouse to continue with my life plan. I couldn't afford to do it and do it right... so I cash advanced Visa cards to the tune of $50K to do it right the first time... and paid for the extra warehouse capacity in much less time with the extra profits the extra barrowed money generated much quicker than if I'd put the cart before the horse. If I can do it, you can do it, if you really want to.

 

I'm all about doing something right and throwing my full weight into it if it's worth doing. If it's just a dick around hobby thing that's doubtfully going to blossum into anything of substance... then sure... another pile of cheap plastic is fine.

 

[abzurd]

While I agree wholeheartedly with the advice given, I also don't think it's necessarily prudent to go blow the college fund on $10K worth of gear for what looks like a first HS band. If you can't "buy once, cry once" then GO THE TOTALLY OPPOSITE DIRECTION - BUY WHAT YOU NEED NOW, BUY IT USED AND DON'T SWEAT IF IT IF IF DOESN'T FIT THE BILL LONG TERM!!!! When buying used just about anything you get is almost always FULLY depreciated.

 

A 10 yr old Peavey powered mixer you buy for $250 will likely be worth $250 3 years from now should you decide to sell it. Heck, there's a fair chance you'll get more than you paid if you had a good eye when you made the purchase. I generally find this the case and have bought several "pieces of interest" over the years off Ebay just to screw around with, then sell later when I was done (harmonizers, maximizers, effects, digital EQ).

 

Some other tips:

 

- Don't worry about upgradability. In fact you DON'T want an upgradeable system because you don't have the initial budget to get any sort of full system you'd want to keep if you were to upgrade. For instance a good mixer is an A&H Mixwizard ($600-$750 used). This is just too much to blow on one piece right now, so don't!

 

- Get yourself a powered mixer of 6-8 channels The powered mixer will likely have some crude form of EQ and possibly even effects (reverb, and delay). Get a much power as you can. Remember most wattage claims are with the amp driven at 4 Ohms. Your speakers will likely be 8 ohms. You'd have to run both in parallel (daisy chain) to get the 4 ohm output, but remember by doing this, the speakers are sharing that power

 

- Get a couple single 12" or 15" mains with a real compression driver for the highs (not a piezo). If possible, buy cabinets that have mounts for speaker stands, but can be used as monitor wedges. This gives you more flexiblity. That said, if you get a good deal on em' you an always use something to tilt them with for monitor use.

 

- Consider at least one monitor wedge so you can hear yourself if you are to get a gig and need to use the other speakers for mains.

 

- To avoid shipping costs, look local first - classifieds in paper, second hand music store, craigslist. Plan a trip to the nearest metropolitan area. After that there's Ebay, HC classifieds, etc.

 

- Know what stuff is worth. If you have an ebay login, you can look up completed auctions to see what stuff is going for.

 

- If you find things are progressing well, keep your eye on the market (bookmark some sites) and look for the "good deals". If you come across a pair of $1200 speakers selling for $400 cuz some guy can't make rent, jump on them and sell your current ones. This is truly the way to get a good system on the cheap. Just realize you need the discipline to save up and have that $400 at the ready so you can jump on a deal.

 

There's a guy on a local music site selling an EV M4, (24 ch board with subgroups and 6 auxes) in mint condition for $500. This was a $2000 board new. If I needed a mixer I'be all over it. I was half considering buying it just to throw on ebay. Or throw my Mixwiz on ebay and pocket the $150 difference.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by abzurd While I agree wholeheartedly with the advice given, I also don't think it's necessarily prudent to go blow the college fund on $10K worth of gear for what looks like a first HS band. If you can't "buy once, cry once" then GO THE TOTALLY OPPOSITE DIRECTION - BUY WHAT YOU NEED NOW, BUY IT USED AND DON'T SWEAT IF IT IF IF DOESN'T FIT THE BILL LONG TERM!!!! When buying used just about anything you get is almost always FULLY depreciated.

 

I completely agree.

 

Right now: Big, old, heavy, & kind-of ugly (or real ugly) is out of fashion and is very, very cheap. Some (much) of the "big, old, heavy, and very cheap stuff happens to be very efficent and reasonably good sounding... typically much better sounding (to my ears) than much of the new, shiny, small, kind-of cheap but very quickly depreciates stuff.

[mparsons]

 

Well... a few years back, I needed a warehouse to continue with my life plan. I couldn't afford to do it and do it right... so I cash advanced Visa cards to the tune of $50K to do it right the first time... and paid for the extra warehouse capacity in much less time with the extra profits the extra barrowed money generated much quicker than if I'd put the cart before the horse. If I can do it, you can do it, if you really want to.

 

 

I'm playing in a metal band with a bunch of high school kids for fun. This isn't a 'need' issue. I don't need the best quality. I just need something to amplify vocals, maybe keys and drums along the way. While I would love for this band to take off, become famous, and make me millions of dollars, the chances of that actually happening are so small that its not worth dumping extra money on essentially a hobby. Either way, something tells me an extra $3K spent on a PA isn't going to make or break us as a band. I'm sure that no scout or other people would think, "Well I like the music but their PA is shoddy. I'll pass".

 

Most bigger local venues that we would play already have a house PA. We need this mainly for putting on our own shows at house parties and barns, etc. where top notch sound quality isn't as important as overall energy. As long as the vocalist is heard and the overall idea of the music can be communicated, all will be good.

 

If the Carvin system I listed ( 2 15s, 1800W power amp ) isn't enough for what we need ( pure vocal amplification ), then what is the minimum requirement?

 

Thanks again for the help and I'm sorry if I'm being difficult.

[Unalaska]

Well add to the mix that I don't know if there is a minimum PA to use every time all the time but 3K spent on PA can also be spent elsewhere in the band: New clothes for the band (NO HAWAIIN SHIRTS OR ONES WITH FLAMES ON IT!!!), promo material (new DVD/CD), photos, marketing tools for agents, rehearsal space.

 

There are many ways to blow 3K quick and PA is just one of them. I figure my band prolly spent close to 3K on just those things. It is an investment in the group as a whole and cannot be easily broken up, i.e. the 1K we dropped in suits I'll prolly never wear outside the band. I keep the PA thing separate from the band and the band rents my gear if needed. The are times I will hire out sound to someone else if that's the case, most times not. If the BAND is going to spend money then spend it on something the BAND benifits from. PA isn't always one of those things, and when the band breaks up like all bands do, well...

p

[Marko]

I've shopped many times on line, like Musician's Friend, or zZounds where they have reviews from buyers included, which were very informative, and the reviews were typically from people who were doing the venues that the products were designed for.

 

I learned from them if the stuff was garbage and didn't work right out of the box, or smoked when ya put a little power to them, or did what the product was designed to do.

 

Maybe try reading some of them to get some more real-world reviews on products from those who are in the market for similar equipment.

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/live?g=live

 

http://www.zzounds.com/cat--Live-Sound-PA--2713

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by mparsons I'm playing in a metal band with a bunch of high school kids for fun. This isn't a 'need' issue. I don't need the best quality. I just need something to amplify vocals, maybe keys and drums along the way. While I would love for this band to take off, become famous, and make me millions of dollars, the chances of that actually happening are so small that its not worth dumping extra money on essentially a hobby.

 

I'm not talking about becoming famous and making millions of dollars. I'm talking about assembling the basic tools to do the job. Very few contractors become world class construction firms, but generally contractors need an assemblage of cost effective tools to do the job.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons its not worth dumping extra money on essentially a hobby.

 

Is the band thing a hobby, or do you have aspirations of playing professionally (getting paid)? Hobbies are worth throwing whatever amount of money at it that you deem appropriate... you can be the judge of what's appropriate when it comes to hobbies. Professionals should deliver a product that meets the market standards.

 

BTW: This: "its not worth dumping extra money on essentially a hobby." tends to be a self fulfilling prophosy.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons Either way, something tells me an extra $3K spent on a PA isn't going to make or break us as a band.

 

Probably not. Attaining success (even if the success is limited to your home town) with a professional band is not about just spending money, but rather adressing all issues equally. The marketability of the band is only as good as the weakest link, not the strongest link. Of-course, if it's a hobby, then concentrate on what's important to YOU.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons I'm sure that no scout or other people would think, "Well I like the music but their PA is shoddy. I'll pass".

 

Chances are pretty good that if the PA sucks, the music will suck. Scouts or other people won't be able to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons Most bigger local venues that we would play already have a house PA.

 

Well, then you might not need anything more than a simple practice PA. The operative word here is "Most". You need to do a market analysis and determine if "most" is "enough clubs that pay well enough to book your band at the schedule that you'd like to see.

 

IME: Many venues with house systems are either booked solid with great (regional or national level) bands, or the venue doesn't pay for crap.

 

Very few good things in this ole world "just happen." Generally you gotta make it happen.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons We need this mainly for putting on our own shows at house parties and barns, etc. where top notch sound quality isn't as important as overall energy.

 

I'm not talking top notch sound quality. I'm talking the basic tools to play professionally, even at house parties and barns. Top notch sound quality is not necessarily important, but the vocals are as important to the crowd as the instruments. The vocal quality needs to be as good as the instrument quality.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons As long as the vocalist is heard and the overall idea of the music can be communicated, all will be good.

 

With the system you proposed, the vocalist might be heard in small enough settings. Will the vocalist's sound be acceptable to a paying crowd? I dunno... I guess it depends on what's acceptable for your genra and how loud the band plays.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons If the Carvin system I listed ( 2 15s, 1800W power amp ) isn't enough for what we need ( pure vocal amplification ), then what is the minimum requirement?

 

It might be fine. I guess buy it and see for yourself. That's what I did.

 

 

Originally posted by mparsons Thanks again for the help and I'm sorry if I'm being difficult.

 

You're not being any more difficult that I was at your age. Your line of reasoning and justifications are letter for letter exactly the same as mine were 30 years ago. My advice now, is basically the same advice I was offered 30 years ago.