Runnin Bass Direct

[Les_Izzmor]

I have a question about running bass direct.

 

I know you guys like detail. So. Here's what we have. Our 4 piece just recently added a soundman. We don't have a lot of gear, but we've had volume issues in the past with the "set it and forget it" method of running sound ourselves.

 

What we use for a PA is a Mackie 808 and two JBL M-Pro 415 mains. In the past we'd only run vocals through them. But. With the soundman we've started running guitars and a little kick drum.

 

Over the weekend we played a bar and the neighbors complained about hearing the bass outside. So. Now the band wants to run the bass direct and have the bass come from the mains as well. And. Only use the bass cab for stage volume.

 

I think that won't sound as good as controlling bass volume with the bass player's cab onstage. The mains don't produce the lows like a bass cab.

 

I think subs are needed to do it right. I think we'll start sounding like a DJ at a wedding and sacrifice low frequencies in the mix.

 

What should we do? Can those mains handle the low end enough? Should we get subs? Is Craigv really related to Richard Simmons?

[agedhorse]

If you have volume problems with bass bleed from the stage, transferring the load to subs will not fix your problem. A suggestion is to listen to the mix from out front and see if there is just too much bass in the mix coming off the stage, and turn down accordingly.

[Les_Izzmor]

If you have volume problems with bass bleed from the stage, transferring the load to subs will not fix your problem. A suggestion is to listen to the mix from out front and see if there is just too much bass in the mix coming off the stage, and turn down accordingly.

 

It's not that.

 

It got to a point where my bass amp was so low, that nobody onstage could hear it unless you were standing in front of it. The drummer couldn't hear it at all. And. The soundman wanted to be able to control the level in the mix better. Instead of asking me to turn up or down.

 

Basically he wants the bass amp for just stage volume. And. He'll put some in the monitors for the drummer and use the mains to control the bass coming through the mix.

 

I've got a great DI (it's a Genz Benz, you know ). So. Running direct isn't a problem. I just think using the bass cab for only stage volume and the mains for house bass (does "house bass" make sense) is useless if you're not using a sub. Maybe I'm off base.

 

I might as well just use a DI box. As I said, we don't have the world's most versatile PA. We can't get separate monitor mixes. So. If the drummer gets bass in his monitor, so will we up front. So. Now we've got bass pumping out of 4 speakers, not counting the bass cab. But. None of those speakers are really designed specifically for low end.

 

I just think we'll lose something in the mix.

[prosigna]

I think your soundman is trying to use solutions common on large rigs in a small situation. I would run the bass rigs at enough level to cover everyone on stage and enough that the soundman will not tell you to turn it down. He then can add some in the PA if it is a little low while your bass rig handles the "heavy lifting". Bass in the monitor wedges with only one monitor mix is not first option I would pick.

[Rbts]

This is a confusing post sort of maybe.

 

Aged Horse is right of course... if the problem is that the bass is so loud that the neighbors are complaining, the only thing that will fix the problem is to turn the bass down. This of course begs the question of whether you would want to turn the bass down if the neighbors weren't complaining or if you were maybe playing somewhere else.

 

But, I think your problem is really maybe a little diffrerent, and I think you are in luck. I think what is going on here is that "they" want you to run your amp quiet (as a stage monitor only), and let the PA (and the new soundman) worry about getting the bass "to the house"... but you don't really want to, and you are worried that the PA you are using is not big enough to do this.

 

I bet you are right... that Mackie Mixer and those two 2 way JBL cabinets (that are rated at what 300 watts?), are probably NOT going to be enough... but who knows. Assume it is not, but try it anyhow, and "they" will soon be asking you to turn your rig back up.

 

Obviously you and the drummer need to be able to hear the bass part, so it might be time to spend a little time on figuring out just how loud (or quiet) is loud enough for you guys to be able to do your jobs, and what the heck - let "them" worry about the rest of it. Like i say, I am thinking they will soon be asking you to turn up a little ... or someone will be buying some new subs for the FOH.

 

Keeping stage volumes low is often a good way to improve the quality of the over-all sound, and it gives the soundtech more control, (which generally is a good thing), but only when the PA is big enough to handle the job, which yours, I don't think, is.

[agedhorse]

I'm afraid you may have to work on how the sound is bleeding out of the building.

 

Years ago, I worked a small club (about 150 seats) that hosted "A circuit" acts who had the expectation of more bass than the neighbors could tolerate. We spent a lot of effort insulating the building from the transmission of low frequencies. This involved the use of interior walls composed of a layer or 5/8" drywall, a layer of Celotex, and another layer or 5/8" drywall to add mass and density to the system as well as some isolation (lossy coupling). The doors were changed to heavy solid core doors and an additional 5/8" drywall layer was added to the ceiling. This resolved the problem good enough that we were able to continue. This venue hosted acts like Buddy Guy, Robert Cray, Etta James, John Lee Hooker, Elvin Bishop, Commander Cody, Richard Thompson/Fairport Convention etc.

[Les_Izzmor]

 

Keeping stage volumes low is often a good way to improve the quality of the over-all sound, and it gives the soundtech more control, (which generally is a good thing), but only when the PA is big enough to handle the job, which yours, I don't think, is.

 

 

 

Yup.

 

Thanks for summing that up for me. I don't think the PA we have is one where we need to start getting fancy. That's why we got it. Sort of a "set it and forget it" thing to run sound from the stage.

 

I should add that at this bar last week some band came in and was so loud that 3 neighbors complained and the bar manager told the band to turn down or turn off more than once. The manager said we were nowhere near that loud and he went outside and all he heard was the bass. But. That's what you hear outside the building. He said it was no big deal.

 

So. He thinks they got a complaint, not because it was too loud outside, but only because the neighbor was still pissed about the week before and was calling just because she heard something. Basically being a thorn in the side of the bar.

[Rbts]

So. He thinks they got a complaint, not because it was too loud outside, but only because the neighbor was still pissed about the week before and was calling just because she heard something. Basically being a thorn in the side of the bar.

 

I just had another idea.... get someone to bake a homemade apple pie, and take it over to her the day of the show... telling her how sorry you are that she was troubled last time you played... and have someone give her a call just after you get started to "make sure" it is not too loud. I bet you will be just fine.

[Les_Izzmor]

I just had another idea.... get someone to bake a homemade apple pie, and take it over to her the day of the show... telling her how sorry you are that she was troubled last time you played... and have someone give her a call just after you get started to "make sure" it is not too loud. I bet you will be just fine.

 

 

And. That's way cheaper than buying subs.

 

Thanks.

[Craig Vecchione]

So. He thinks they got a complaint, not because it was too loud outside, but only because the neighbor was still pissed about the week before and was calling just because she heard something. Basically being a thorn in the side of the bar. I just had another idea.... get someone to bake a homemade apple pie, and take it over to her the day of the show... telling her how sorry you are that she was troubled last time you played... and have someone give her a call just after you get started to "make sure" it is not too loud. I bet you will be just fine.

 

 

You're not from around here, are you? :D

[Phil Clark]

So. He thinks they got a complaint, not because it was too loud outside, but only because the neighbor was still pissed about the week before and was calling just because she heard something. Basically being a thorn in the side of the bar.

 

Yeah, that happens a lot. And while I always run my main band at a reasonable level (95DbA at FOH with peaks of 102-105DbA) it still happens and when the venue asks me to turn down, I turn down. Arguing with the venue could lead to not getting booked again.

 

We have one bar (outdoors on the river) that gets complaints all the time, despite the fact that I measured ambient noise from the property line and noise with the band playing and the difference was only 2DbA. But music is purceived as louder than it is because you can more easily "hear" the music as opposed to general bar noise. So even though I know it is reasonable, I still turn down when asked.

 

The manager appreaciates that and has told me on a couple of occasions that when she has asked other bands to turn down, she swears she has had them turn up. Not smart if you ask me.

[Mr.Talent]

I have a question about running bass direct. I know you guys like detail. So. Here's what we have. Our 4 piece just recently added a soundman. We don't have a lot of gear, but we've had volume issues in the past with the "set it and forget it" method of running sound ourselves. What we use for a PA is a Mackie 808 and two JBL M-Pro 415 mains. In the past we'd only run vocals through them. But. With the soundman we've started running guitars and a little kick drum. Over the weekend we played a bar and the neighbors complained about hearing the bass outside. So. Now the band wants to run the bass direct and have the bass come from the mains as well. And. Only use the bass cab for stage volume. I think that won't sound as good as controlling bass volume with the bass player's cab onstage. The mains don't produce the lows like a bass cab. I think subs are needed to do it right. I think we'll start sounding like a DJ at a wedding and sacrifice low frequencies in the mix. What should we do? Can those mains handle the low end enough? Should we get subs? Is Craigv really related to Richard Simmons?

 

I think your soundguy is on the right track.. micing/DI everything is the way to go.. the 808 doesn't have alot of power or input channels but you can get good results with your setup... subs would help in the low-end dept (especially the kick)- Of course the band members need to hear themselves and each other, so maybe focus a little on monitor mixes.. Leave the FOH to the soundguy...

As for the neighbor- she lives next to a bar that has live music..

[Les_Izzmor]

Thanks for all the advice. I really like coming here. I get good advice from smart people.

 

Let me ask this. If we get a powered sub with an 18" speaker could we use that instead of a bass amp and cab? My thinking is to run the bass through a DI and use a crossover with Mackie and put the Sub in the back of the stage where the bass amp would be. That way the soundman could control the bass the way he wants and we wouldn't lose any low end.

 

Or. Is that not feasible. I'm guessing somebody on the stage would have to set the sub volume. But. They could do so at the soundman's prompting.

 

And. One more thing. How come nobody has answered my last question in the first post in this thread?

[agedhorse]

I think you may find that the bass will bleed out no matter if the source is the amp or the sub.

[Les_Izzmor]

 

I think you may find that the bass will bleed out no matter if the source is the amp or the sub.

 

 

I'm not worried about it bleeding out. We've been playing for 4 years and that's the first time it's ever happened. I figure it was an anomaly.

 

I just don't want to sacrifice low end in giving the soundman more control over our sound. And. I think if we turn the bass cab down low and control the bass in the house mix only with two 15" mains we'll not sound so good.

 

I have no problem giving him full power over the sound. But. I want to have the right equipment to do it.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

One more thing. How come nobody has answered my last question in the first post in this thread?

 

 

 

I'm curious too.

[agedhorse]

Notice I kept my mouth shut on that one???

[boomerweps]

DON'T put the PA sub behind bass player or the front mics. Even hi passing the vocal channels (if that mixer has that option), you could still get into a LF feedback loop from any other mics. It can be bad enough with the LF wrapping around the subs, don't give it a headstart!

 

Boomerweps

[mshifflett]

We had a similar problem before we switched to in ear monitors and got rid of all of the stage amps. The best thing we found to do was to take all of our amps and set them on the sides of the stage, well behind the vocal mics and point them straight across the stage at each other. This way you don't have to crank them up so much for others to hear on stage and you are pointing those drivers right at the crowd or your sound guy.

[prosigna]

Is Craigv really related to Richard Simmons?

 

I cannot divulge my sources but.....

 

That's the word on the street!

[Les_Izzmor]

I cannot divulge my sources but..... That's the word on the street!

 

Thanks for confirming that. I didn't want to spread any rumors until I got confirmation. And. I'm taking your post as 100% verification of the validity of my claim.

 

I knew it. What other grown men wear short shorts like that. Only Richard Simmons and Craigv. They had to be related.

 

To everybody else. Thanks for all the suggestions and support in this thread. I say it every time. But. I really enjoy coming here. I get good advice that I can utilize.

 

I'm going to include the Live Sound Forum in my will.

[1tallbassguy]

I'm afraid you may have to work on how the sound is bleeding out of the building. Years ago, I worked a small club (about 150 seats) that hosted "A circuit" acts who had the expectation of more bass than the neighbors could tolerate. We spent a lot of effort insulating the building from the transmission of low frequencies. This involved the use of interior walls composed of a layer or 5/8" drywall, a layer of Celotex, and another layer or 5/8" drywall to add mass and density to the system as well as some isolation (lossy coupling). The doors were changed to heavy solid core doors and an additional 5/8" drywall layer was added to the ceiling. This resolved the problem good enough that we were able to continue. This venue hosted acts like Buddy Guy, Robert Cray, Etta James, John Lee Hooker, Elvin Bishop, Commander Cody, Richard Thompson/Fairport Convention etc.

 

That's my kind of place!!

[agedhorse]

It was a very cool place, I started the live music program there in about 1980 and it naturally evolved into something that couldn't ever be planned. It just happened. We also did acts like the Kingston Trio, Limelighters, Inkspots, BobbyMcFerron, Mary Wells, Al Stewart, Montraux, David Grisman, Kate Wolf, Willie Dixon, Norton Buffalo, Stephen Stills, New Riders of the Purple Sage, Big Mama Thornton, Holly Near, Taj Mahal, Chambers Brothers, Jerry Jeff Walyer, Commander Cody, etc.

 

I realize that many of you have never heard of (most of) these acts, but at one time they defined the popular/bluse/folk music scene in the 60's-70's. Many are no longer with us, so for me it was a unique opportunity to work with a defining segment of the industry. I worked this circuit (regularly) from 1978 until about 1990, though I continue to do a few of these shows even today... for those who remain with us of course.

 

The interesting thing for me is to listen to the board tapes I made (with permission of course) and see how my mixing style developed over the years. It's always been based on the fundamental basics of buildinga solid mix (that's the common theme with all of those acts) but I can also see how I became more creative when the opportunity presented itself but also to see how I was able to remain conservative in my style to "fit in" when I was unsure of how the mix should be built. I also mixes a lot of A circuit international touring acts over the past 30 years, and since I am not familiar with the (detailed) musical styles of, say West Aftrica, or Venezuela, or Peru, or Equador, or Brazil, or Gahna, or Japan, or Vietnam and so on, I had to try to understand and use my gut feeling along with non-english descriptions. A concervative mix, using the non-amplified volumes of the various instruments as a guide and some common sense helped me develop this skill. It also made me a better engineer of more culturally familiar styles.