Monitoring foldbacks post graphic?

[belayslave]

Dear brains trust,

 

I've just started mixing monitors regularly for a 30-piece big band. for the majority of the band the job isn't too stressful (only 5-6 sends in total). But for the piano player and the main vocalist, they're both very professional and i have to work hard to get a good mix for them.

 

One of my main problems is when i'm AFL'ing there monitor sends, due to the console i'm using i can only do it pre-graphic. I'm using a Mackie VLZ-PRO 24/4. Currently i'm using the graphics in-line. I.e. Aux send out - graphic - amps - foldback wedges.

 

The company that holds the contract for the big band only has that console available to me. Obviously if i had a dedicated monitor board i could insert the graphics in to Aux Inserts. This console doesn't have Aux Inserts.

 

Is there any way to get around my problem and monitor post graphic? would help me a great deal.

 

Many thanks,

Chris.

[Crownman]

It doesn't look like there's a way to solve the problem without the inserts. Just out of curiosity, why do you need to hear it post graphic? It shouldn't be too hard to get a good mix without hearing the graphic.

[belayslave]

although you can do it by experience, or by hit and miss, i find for me when a performer says to me "it sounds too wooly" or "guitar is too harsh" if i can hear exactly what they're hearing, it's easier for me to adjust the sound to suit.

 

Having just thought about it further, and looked at the block diagram for the Mackie 24/4 perhaps the following would work, but only for the main sends, not for all.

 

The Mackie 24/4 has 4 sub-groups each with an insert, so... i set up my aux send mixes as per normal. then patch from an aux send out, to a spare line input channel, assign that channel to for example, sub group 1, patch the graphic inserted on sub group 1. then use the sub group output to send to the amp. Bit of a round about way, but would work no?

[Crownman]

That could probably work. I thought about that but saw that you use 5-6 sends. I have now read your first post over again and see that you really only need to do this for 2 channels. I also didn't post it because you said you have a 30 piece band and you're doing it on a 24ch board, I assumed you wouldn't have any channels to use the line in's on.

[belayslave]

i have very few spare channels (if any depending on if the whole band turns up), and am at the point of probably having to get a small sub-mixer to put together things like the sax sections, and trumpet sections etc before bringing them in to the main mixer.

 

Thanks for your replies Crownman. anyone else got another idea or opinion?

[agedhorse]

You are probably better off keeping things simple because you don't have a board with the proper features to do what you want and beware the juryrig that bites you in the ass.

 

Monitoring pre-graphic isn't all that big of a deal, afterall if you are running monitors and FOH from the same (or any number of) console and went to listen with headphones, you would again be monitoringthe mixes pre-graphic.

 

It's not all that big of a deal IMO.

[belayslave]

hi agedhorse. maybe it isn't that big a deal, and i do have a habit of over complicating things at times.

 

But i do like to be able to listen to exactly what the musicians are hearing, through the same medium (i.e. if they're using wedges, i'll use wedges to monitor, if they're using IEMs, so will I).

 

For this particular scenario i'm only running monitors and it's a side of stage mix position for me in most cases.

 

I also had the pleasure of running stage (and subsequently assisting the monitor engineer) on a big greek gig last weekend. The monitor Console was a Midas XL250. After having some time on that, with the comfort of nearly every conceivable input/output configuration available, it was a step back to the Mackie which in turn is a bit of a disappointment in comparison. (Two weekends previous i was on a Midas Heritage 3000... again an amazing console).

[Hawkeye]

 

Dear brains trust, But for the piano player and the main vocalist, they're both very professional and i have to work hard to get a good mix for them. Chris.

 

 

In this case "professional" sounds like a euphemism for "persnickety". I applaud your diligence to get the best sound for them though. I wish you were running sound for our church.

[Dogoth]

 

But i do like to be able to listen to exactly what the musicians are hearing, through the same medium (i.e. if they're using wedges, i'll use wedges to monitor, if they're using IEMs, so will I).

 

 

I agree with you and idealy that would be the case, but then reality sets in.

 

I use at least 2 (and often as many as 5 or 6) different transducers for monitors each of which has a different frequency response signature.

1)15" wedges for keys bass etc

2)12" wedges for BUV

3)Drum sub plus 15" wedge for drumer

4)dual 15" + 6" + 1" for sides

5)In Ear monitors

6)dual 10" boxes for when I run out of other monitors.

My que wedge is yet a different dual 10" box.

 

What I find is that unless your standing where the musician is (which gives you their total perspective including room acoustics, the mains mix and other other instruments heard directly (rather than through their wedge)) you really have no idea what their mix is like (the que wedge IS NOT a true representation of what they're hearing). During Sound check I like to stand next to the players and get a feel for what they're hearing (If I get a chance).

 

My que wedge is for making a relative mix change ONLY I.E. if someone asks for a little more piano I'll que up that mix and make sure I only give a little (rather than a lot (I guess that'd be 2-3 db rather than 8-12 db)).

 

One of the boards I use doesn't have aux inserts either (at least not on all of the auxes). In the end I've never found this to be a big problem.

[kevinnem]

well a few ideas here, maybe you need to lean on the company supply the gear to provide another mix??? I mean honestly a 30 piece band, they have to be getting some real work, and I think you could talk the supplier/band leader, in to making the issue go away with better console. Even if the supplier has to cross rent it.

 

Also another idea we do, get a berringer line mixer (the rack mount one), then you feed IT all of your post EQ signal from the EQ's (usually the eq's have trs and xlr on them, so use the one that isn't used right now) then connect your monitor to the "out" of the line mixer. you pipe your "control room out" on the makcie to an eq, and then to the line mixer as well.

 

this way if you select any of 1-6 o nthe line mixer you hear - with EQ - the monitor signal. and if you select 7 - you have the boards cue mix (and soloed channels) - again with eq.

 

Cost about 100$, plus cable, and is 1 RU in size. - will be all but worthless if you try to sell it, and it is clearly a "band aid " solution.