Members srp72ee Posted May 21, 2008 Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 It's possible you might have a weak breaker. Also keep in mind, there are differences in inrush ratings of standard "household" type breakers. Without going too deep into it, Square D breakers have a "Characteristic C" curve while GE has a "Characteristic D" curve. The GE's typically will handle the inrush current and short term peaks much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 21, 2008 Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 subsrock... you are talking about the breaker feeding the amps or the breaker on the amp itself? How many of each amp do you have on a circuit and what is the breaker value? There may be more to this than meets the eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cmgunn Posted May 21, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 subsrock... you are talking about the breaker feeding the amps or the breaker on the amp itself?How many of each amp do you have on a circuit and what is the breaker value?There may be more to this than meets the eye. The breakers in the building. I had two RMX amps on a 20 amp (1 RMX2450 and 1 RMX1450). Now I'm running a XTi4000 and a XTi1000 of the same breaker, same music, same speakers and didn't have any problems with the breakers. The wiring is up to code and *can* handle 30amps (breaker is 20amps though). The only other things on the same circuit are the mixer/CD player and the DI box. The only think that has changed is the amps themselves (RMX to XTi). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 21, 2008 Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 A 2450 and 1450 should easily operate on a 20 amp circuit breaker of any type. By any chance are you bridging the QSC and not the Crown? What gauge is the wiring? You sure nothing else is supplied by the breaker that may have been in use when you used the XTi's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cmgunn Posted May 21, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 A 2450 and 1450 should easily operate on a 20 amp circuit breaker of any type. By any chance are you bridging the QSC and not the Crown?What gauge is the wiring? You sure nothing else is supplied by the breaker that may have been in use when you used the XTi's? The 1450 was bridged, and the XTi 1000 was bridged (it isn't now). It only goes to two outlets, so I don't think that was it. The speaker cable is 14 gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PJenkins Posted May 21, 2008 Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 I figured that they weren't specifically for the MRX like what they said, but it's power rating it pretty close. QSC PLX amps are too expensive for me, and I don't really like the RMX, as it draws too much power from the venue it'll be used at. The XTi's have been ok power wise, it still dims the lights with a sub, but not as much as the RMX we had, which constantly tripped the breaker. Do you have another suggestion that's in the price range of the XTi/Xs amps that would be better? What lights? indicator lights on the amps? Stage lights ?House lights? If its house and or other lights on other outlets, it could be an indication of a high resistance (read BAD) connection somewhere in the AC distro. Prolly not but it can happen, my story..... In an older building I once had a shop in. I experienced voltage drops on the AC mains that would occur when I had a lot of equip. on. It happened on all the outlets, but was intermittant. The landlord had an electrician look at it, no answer, had the power co. put a graph meter on the pole, wasn't dropping on their side. I lived with it for a few months, then one night ,while my band was practicing coincidentley, it happened again. We decided to bag it for the night and were outside saying farewells when someone asked me what the red light was on top of my building?WTF I says and I go for a closer look. It was a connector glowing cherry red on one leg of the 220 coming into the building. I went inside pulled the main fuse block (I said the building was old) and called the landlord. Next day me and the landlord go look again ( he didn't believe me) sure enuff the clamp connector was loose and the wire was carbonized from the arcing. The electrician came back, quietly fixed it and left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cmgunn Posted May 21, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 What lights? indicator lights on the amps? Stage lights ?House lights? If its house and or other lights on other outlets, it could be an indication of a high resistance (read BAD) connection somewhere in the AC distro. Prolly not but it can happen, my story.....In an older building I once had a shop in. I experienced voltage drops on the AC mains that would occur when I had a lot of equip. on. It happened on all the outlets, but was intermittant. The landlord had an electrician look at it, no answer, had the power co. put a graph meter on the pole, wasn't dropping on their side. I lived with it for a few months, then one night ,while my band was practicing coincidentley, it happened again. We decided to bag it for the night and were outside saying farewells when someone asked me what the red light was on top of my building?WTF I says and I go for a closer look. It was a connector glowing cherry red on one leg of the 220 coming into the building. I went inside pulled the main fuse block (I said the building was old) and called the landlord. Next day me and the landlord go look again ( he didn't believe me) sure enuff the clamp connector was loose and the wire was carbonized from the arcing. The electrician came back, quietly fixed it and left. It's the house lights. We've had 2 electricians and 3 building inspectors check the wiring (residential practice studio, not commercial), and they said it was fine, I gave them the power consumption on the amps and it was fine as long as I don't peak them (which I don't). You can't tell if the lights are dimming unless you look really hard (it's not like they go down to a noticeable point if you aren't looking for it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cmgunn Posted May 21, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 Here is a list of everything used at the time with both the RMX and XTi (by now it's changed): 1 XTi 40001 Xti 10001 Behringer SL3242fx Pro1 dbx 231 EQ1 KLH CD player7 50w PAR20 house lights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 21, 2008 Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 Ok, so you have 350 watts of small PAR lights as well. What gauge is the wire feeding the receptacle that allows it to handle 30 amps? If it's a standard receptacle, it can't legally be protected by larger than a 20 amp breaker anyway. Maybe you are really close on both amp setups and an extra amp or two is pushing you over the edge. What are you bridging the 1450 on? I don't see anything in your sig that would make sense bridging into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cmgunn Posted May 21, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 Ok, so you have 350 watts of small PAR lights as well. What gauge is the wire feeding the receptacle that allows it to handle 30 amps? If it's a standard receptacle, it can't legally be protected by larger than a 20 amp breaker anyway.Maybe you are really close on both amp setups and an extra amp or two is pushing you over the edge.What are you bridging the 1450 on? I don't see anything in your sig that would make sense bridging into. The wiring is 30 amps I think I don't know what gauge. Back when I had the RMX I had borrowed a MRX528S, and had it when I first bought the XTi's, not the 1000 is on monitor duty and the 4000 has the mains/sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 21, 2008 Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 Don't know what the power is except that we now know you have an extra 3 amps on the circuit w/ the lights, plus whatever else is on there.. Without knowing the gauge, there's no way to say the wire is good for 30 amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cmgunn Posted May 21, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 Don't know what the power is except that we now know you have an extra 3 amps on the circuit w/ the lights, plus whatever else is on there..Without knowing the gauge, there's no way to say the wire is good for 30 amps. I don't know the gauge, I just read the box. I was watching the contractor build it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 21, 2008 Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 The box wouldn't have the current listed... only the gauge because ampacity depends on the installation and the relevant code section regarding things like deratings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cmgunn Posted May 21, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 The box wouldn't have the current listed... only the gauge because ampacity depends on the installation and the relevant code section regarding things like deratings. The box the wire came in said 30 amps. I saw the wire and I know it's not 30 gauge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cmgunn Posted May 21, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 21, 2008 I called the electrician, and he said 12gauge at 20-25 amps. So I was a little off.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 22, 2008 Members Share Posted May 22, 2008 I called the electrician, and he said 12gauge at 20-25 amps. So I was a little off.... I thought so... 12 gauge is legal only on maximum 20 amp protected circuits. Just as important is the length of the run which dictates the voltage drop under load. 5% maximum (including feeder) is the code design target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cmgunn Posted May 22, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 22, 2008 I thought so... 12 gauge is legal only on maximum 20 amp protected circuits. Just as important is the length of the run which dictates the voltage drop under load. 5% maximum (including feeder) is the code design target. I just found an 'outlet tester' that shows "Hot/Grd Reversed." Could that have something to do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 22, 2008 Members Share Posted May 22, 2008 Not unless it's a GFCI. I doubt the hot and ground are actually reversed unless there is also a missing ground bond to neutral at the panel... otherwise to breaker wouldn't set and in that case, there are bigger problems that cast doubt on the electrical inspection of everything else that's there. This is why I appear to be so strict and rigid on troubleshooting... manythings tend to come to light and some are not as they can appear. I routinely do industrial controls servicing and eliminating possible causes is part of the process called differential diagnostics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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