Some Video From The Largest Gig We've Ever Played Using Yorkville Elites

[WynnD]

When the club's sound engineer set us up, I told him that we didn't want to be perceived as a loud band. So he started the evening at the 110 dbc that the club always did. (And that is everywhere that isn't in the restroom.) He's gone now and the club has calmed the sound down to about 95 dbc. Result? People hang around for the other bands. Wait staff get the drink orders right. I can even go and finally enjoy the place. (And I'm betting their sales and profits have gone up.) Next time Irie Still plays there, I'll be able to go and enjoy the show. (For the first time in the 4 appearances that I've seen them there. I really enjoy reggae and they are very good.) I'll probably get dinged for reporting on a club that made changes on their own in a direction that I thought they should. (Didn't talk with management. Just left as soon as my friends that were playing were done. Just like almost everyone else. Excessive volume chasing the audience out the door is a stupid business model.)

[Craig Vecchione]

 

When the club's sound engineer set us up, I told him that we didn't want to be perceived as a loud band. So he started the evening at the 110 dbc that the club always did. (And that is everywhere that isn't in the restroom.) He's gone now and the club has calmed the sound down to about 95 dbc. Result? People hang around for the other bands. Wait staff get the drink orders right. I can even go and finally enjoy the place. (And I'm betting their sales and profits have gone up.) Next time Irie Still plays there, I'll be able to go and enjoy the show. (For the first time in the 4 appearances that I've seen them there. I really enjoy reggae and they are very good.) I'll probably get dinged for reporting on a club that made changes on their own in a direction that I thought they should. (Didn't talk with management. Just left as soon as my friends that were playing were done. Just like almost everyone else. Excessive volume chasing the audience out the door is a stupid business model.)

 

 

What club? How did we get here?

 

What does this last story have to do with covering 850 people with four 110dB boxes and 200 watts, or sound engineers changing the tone of a kick drum?

 

I'm quite sure everyone who's ever read a thread in this forum knows how you feel about bass, kick drum and band volume. Why do you make it a point to post this every chance you get, or in this case, derail a thread in order to do so?

[WynnD]

The point about the A7 VOT was that huge wattage isn't necessary to provide great coverage for a rock audience. My personal preference for subs that are an extension and not the dominant volume source doesn't really come into it.

[wheresgrant3]

The reality of providing sound reinforcement for a band, is that in many cases, the BE has supplement what the talent is delivering to achieved to desired result...a result that is both desired by the band and is representative of the recorded sound of the original. Case in point. The vocal often times is benefited by reverb, delay, pitch correction, doubling, harmonies, etc. The pure source is augmented to a new state that is desirable by the artist. Now, I wouldn't recommend a BE process an artists voice unless he was familiar with the desired end-state and was using his tools to get there. In the case of doing sound reinforcement for cover bands, the BE should be generally familiar with the material/genre of the music that is being covered by the band. If the band is doing modern (post 1970) r&r/funk/hip hop/reggae, etc. The kick drum is represented in recordings as a prominent and processed (gated, eq'ed, and often compressed) instrument..not at all like an acoustic, unreinforced kick. Also, if you take each muso in a band and have them get their instruments to sound to how they like and then combine all of that into a mix....you'll likely have a good bit of mud. The kick drum and the bass have to complement each other, not compete. The BE has to trusted to have a good ear and the skills necessary to achieve a desirable mix. It seems as though you have an agenda to fight the big, loud, and bottom heavy mixes that dominate today's live sound. That battle has been lost! This generation seems to like it that way and it's relatively easy and affordable to deliver.

 

 

 

We were forced to make this investment years ago because as I said, a majority of the rooms we were playing at the time had no house sound. Since then the ratio has changed a bit (more like 60:40) but in every instance we try to run our own sound when we can... not because we're good at it, but because it's consistent. We have a large following (average draw 150-250) that support us from club to club. It's important that they experience the same show in each situation. We're not professional sound engineers... however with today's equipement it's much easier to dial in a band than it probably was 20, 30 years ago. My point of the thread was that initial $5000 investment (4 Yorkville Elite speakers, 1 A&H Mix Wiz mixer) has paid for itself 50x's over... at the time of purchase we were forced to either upgrade our equipment or hire a professional sound company at $250-300 per pop.

 

 

There is one room in particular that we play at that installed a similar speaker setup as us. They provided sound and an engineer to run the board. This guy has floated around from club to club for years. My bandmates hated him (this was before we used our mixer to control the monitor mix). The guy had an attitude and after the 2-3 gig of him fiddling with compression, losing monitors and throwing swirly mix of FX on the FOH mix we went to the club owner with an ultimatum... we run our own sound or we won't play there. I know to this day that sound guy still hates us... but frankly we were sick of having the audience look at us cross eyed when 40ms delay was splashed over everything in the mix.

[Gregidon]

First off Grant(?),

Congrats! It's always great to take a questionable situation and rock it! Good work!


WynnD,

Seriously man, give it a rest.

[Craig Vecchione]

The point about the A7 VOT was that huge wattage isn't necessary to provide great coverage for a rock audience. My personal preference for subs that are an extension and not the dominant volume source doesn't really come into it.

 

:confused:But you brought up both of those issues.

 

Anyway, who's dragging those monstrosities, or anything remotely like them, around these days?? They were obsolete decades ago. More power into less efficient but better-sounding higher power handling boxes still comes out cheaper than the old giant efficient horns, even if you don't adjust dollars for inflation.

[stevie j]

From the A7 manual,

Sensitivity is 97dB 1W/1m and its weight is 12 stone.



Why not just get some yamaha clubs and a 400w QSC amp, the frequency range, power handling and sensitivity are similar (clubs are probably louder)

When I need cheap volume, I go for Martin VRS1000 and nexo S2 2x18's powered by 12kW of iTechs. At 106dB 1W/1m I can cover 800 people indoors are concert level (80000 at WynnD's average level ) and give or take 500 outdoors comfortably.

Sub does not mean loud, it gives a sense of power and need not be +3dB WRT the tops. It just so happens that all music in the last 30 years suits that style of mixing.

[wheresgrant3]

:confused:But you brought up both of those issues. Anyway, who's dragging those monstrosities, or anything remotely like them, around these days?? They were obsolete decades ago. More power into less efficient but better-sounding higher power handling boxes still comes out cheaper than the old giant efficient horns, even if you don't adjust dollars for inflation.

I was a little confused over the points that were made. Legacy A7's are available at $4000 a piece. That's what we paid for all four Yorkies... that are used in any size gig situation.


My dad had a hi-fi stereo back in the day that sounded pretty good at the time. How does that compare to an iPod? I dunno.

[WynnD]

Yes there is better and cheaper equipment available. That applies to Hammonds too, but I don't see anyone screaming at the B3 fans for not coming up to date. (I've seen a B3 gigged in Denver this past year. And could probably see one every year as well as on TV) The B3 is an older technology then those A7 Altecs. And the newest of those was built in the early 70s. (Let alone that they weigh 425 lbs.) Newer can be better, but it continues to be possible to get good sound out of obsolete equipment. It's recycling at its most basic level. (You really don't want them burning all those 1950s strats just because better is available today.)

 

And yes, Yorkville continues to make good equipment. It's nice to see manufacturers survive the rough times and continue to improve their lines.

[Gregidon]

Yes there is better and cheaper equipment available. That applies to Hammonds too, but I don't see anyone screaming at the B3 fans for not coming up to date. (I've seen a B3 gigged in Denver this past year. And could probably see one every year as well as on TV) The B3 is an older technology then those A7 Altecs. And the newest of those was built in the early 70s. (Let alone that they weigh 425 lbs.) Newer can be better, but it continues to be possible to get good sound out of obsolete equipment. It's recycling at its most basic level. (You really don't want them burning all those 1950s strats just because better is available today.) And yes, Yorkville continues to make good equipment. It's nice to see manufacturers survive the rough times and continue to improve their lines.

Yeah, but the B3 arguably sounds better than a replica (also looks good on stage ). I don't think either of these are applicable arguments for a VOT system vs modern systems. Hell, half the reason line-arrays are used in so many situations these days is people like how they look. It's okay to man up and admit that you are wrong, I know I'll respect you more if you do .

[wheresgrant3]

Yeah, but the B3 arguably sounds better than a replica (also looks good on stage ). I don't think either of these are applicable arguments for a VOT system vs modern systems. Hell, half the reason line-arrays are used in so many situations these days is people like how they look. It's okay to man up and admit that you are wrong, I know I'll respect you more if you do .

The same with Mellotrons, but that doesn't mean that they are portable or practical in a frequent gigging situation.

Not to pound this discussion into the dirt but it's my belief and understanding that AL VOT's were designed for concert reinforcement? Most were probably used as installs and probably not dragged from venue to venue unless they were used by a professional sound company or a national touring act. I still don't see how any comparison applies to a frequently gigging cover band who uses this gear every weekend to fill sound in venues as small as 100 person cap... to as demonstrated over 1000 person cap. Why does wattage matter when the system works as advertised?

[Bobby1Note]

Didn't see Earthquake in a theater. Didn't EV make a 30" speaker that was used for that?

 

 

Are you perhaps referring to the Ev Patrician 800? That had a 30" woofer, made by Hartley as I recall. I came VERY close to buying a pair of those refrigerator-sized boxes back in the late 60's. If I'm not mistaken, I believe those woofers were 100w, and had a 1" voice-coil.

 

Bob

[WynnD]

Not to pound this discussion into the dirt but it's my belief and understanding that AL VOT's were designed for concert reinforcement?

 

 

Group was Elderberry Jak and they were working 7 days a week. And while they usually played at the Grasshopper, the A7s got moved to any large enough venue they were playing. Non of the weekend bands I knew back there had anything like them.

[lifeloverwg]

Actually, WynD's style of no low end listening is making a comeback! Or so it seems when I hear all my friends new Ipod docking stations with their maybe 3" woofers. Nothing below 150hz and they get insulted when I comment on the weak AM radio sound.

Winston

[Gregidon]

Actually, WynD's style of no low end listening is making a comeback! Or so it seems when I hear all my friends new Ipod docking stations with their maybe 3" woofers. Nothing below 150hz and they get insulted when I comment on the weak AM radio sound. Winston

Agreed,

Between those weak little iPod docks and the ear-buds that come with iPods there has been a revolt against bass. Wynn is against us all

[WynnD]

i'm not anti-bass, but some of those docks are pitiful.

[rinkydinkron]

I agree with Wynn 150%. The number of times i have attended a gig where the bass out front is just silly loud and muddy and bares no resemblance to the source sound is ridiculous. Surely the sound engineers job has to be to reproduce and augment to the best of their ability the sound of the backline, not to produce a completely different entity.
If you have decent quality and quantity of gear and enough power this is achieveable. I remember attending one of the episodes of the well known BBC music show Later with Jools and i was absolutely flabbergasted with just how moderate but full sounding the PA was. There was no boosting of this, that and the other, just good honest sound engineered by experienced pro 's using quality gear.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Yes there is better and cheaper equipment available. That applies to Hammonds too, but I don't see anyone screaming at the B3 fans for not coming up to date. (I've seen a B3 gigged in Denver this past year. And could probably see one every year as well as on TV) The B3 is an older technology then those A7 Altecs. And the newest of those was built in the early 70s. (Let alone that they weigh 425 lbs.) Newer can be better, but it continues to be possible to get good sound out of obsolete equipment. It's recycling at its most basic level. (You really don't want them burning all those 1950s strats just because better is available today.).

 

 

Are you really going to make an analogy using examples of copies (synths) that are cheaper but not better than the original (a B3)? This isn't even an accurate analogy; we're not talking about someone trying to copy the VOT's design and sound characteristics.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I agree with Wynn 150%. The number of times i have attended a gig where the bass out front is just silly loud and muddy and bares no resemblance to the source sound is ridiculous. Surely the sound engineers job has to be to reproduce and augment to the best of their ability the sound of the backline, not to produce a completely different entity. If you have decent quality and quantity of gear and enough power this is achieveable. I remember attending one of the episodes of the well known BBC music show Later with Jools and i was absolutely flabbergasted with just how moderate but full sounding the PA was. There was no boosting of this, that and the other, just good honest sound engineered by experienced pro 's using quality gear.

 

 

Were they using 1950's Altecs and 150 watts? No subs? Doubt it.

 

The issue is that Wynn incessantly posts with a rant about how there's too much bass, too loud volume, that we can do just fine using no subs and ancient speakers. All is true, but it's tiring to read the same rant over and over. Of course there are shows that are bass heavy, too loud, poorly mixed, etc. Nobody has ever denied this. We don't need to be reminded of this in every thread where it's possible to shoehorn the discussion into this. This threads a perfect example...the poor OP had a great gig, and here's this same-old same-old.

[Unalaska]

I'd offer that each person would mix a little differently. Equipment not being the final say, each person mixes diffferently. I'll bet Wynn could get a sound he likes from one of my PA's in most rooms, and it could be bass heavy or not, it's all to taste. Generally most people like good solid low end but it's not a reason to strip down the tool bax so a weak low end is the only option.

[WynnD]

The issue is that Wynn incessantly posts with a rant about how we can do just fine using no subs and ancient speakers.

 

 

That's funny, I have subs and use them sometimes. Not suggesting anyone change their own approach.

[WynnD]

And no one, including me, is suggesting burying the bass by not having enough equipment. I can always hear the bass. If it's perfect for me, it might be a little shy for others.

[BigMac5]

The issue is that Wynn incessantly posts with a rant about how there's too much bass, too loud volume, that we can do just fine using no subs and ancient speakers. All is true, but it's tiring to read the same rant over and over. Of course there are shows that are bass heavy, too loud, poorly mixed, etc. Nobody has ever denied this. We don't need to be reminded of this in every thread where it's possible to shoehorn the discussion into this. This threads a perfect example...the poor OP had a great gig, and here's this same-old same-old .

:thu:

[smitty0069]

The issue is that Wynn incessantly posts with a rant about how there's too much bass, too loud volume, that we can do just fine using no subs and ancient speakers. All is true, but it's tiring to read the same rant over and over. Of course there are shows that are bass heavy, too loud, poorly mixed, etc. Nobody has ever denied this. We don't need to be reminded of this in every thread where it's possible to shoehorn the discussion into this. This threads a perfect example...the poor OP had a great gig, and here's this same-old same-old.

I can't quite decide what's more tiring.....Wynn pushing his agenda, or the moderator pushing his and completely derailing this thread by continuing to argue his point. :blah:

In an effort to get this back on track......Grant, it's always nice to have your gear be a great ROI. The Yorkvilles have proven time and again to be some of the best ROI gear there is.


Smitty

[rotebass]

1. The two rigs I mix on most are a JBL SRX rig and a Yorkville Elite rig, both are powered by macrotechs and both are great rigs. The JBL is definately the superior rig in terms of volume, sound quality and rider acceptance, it also cost several times more than the Yorkville rig.

 

FWIW: Social Code, Protest the Hero, Silverstein and countless other national acts have been more than happy with the Yorkville rig. A 2x15+horn and 2x18 sub per side has been more than adequate for gigs less than 500. To tie this in with what the original poster was saying, you don't always have to pull out the big names to get the job done.

 

2. Does anybody really care what WynnD has to say?