Getting tired of Drum Triggers, is this a decent mic setup?

[StratGuy22]

Hi, I run sound mainly for bar bands. I have a decent setup, and I'm currently using DDrum triggers (The good ones with the XLR outputs) into an Alesis DM5. I've used these for years, and I'm thinking of moving to a set of drum mics.

 

Here's my current PA setup...

 

Front End/Monitors

2 -Yorkville Unity15 top cabinets

2 - LS800P subs

4 - YX12 monitors

 

12 lights across the back with truss' and stands, 2 lights at the front...

 

Mics:

4 - SM58's

3 - SM57's

3 - SM81's

 

Yorkville Powermax16 mixer/FX Rack/150' snake

 

Peavey 31 band EX with FLS

Peavey 2 x 15 band EQ

Alesis Quadraverb (Old school)

Rocktron 2 channel compressor (holy old school)

Yorkville Unity Processor (crossover)

Peavey 31 band EQ with FLS

Peavey 31 band EQ with FLS

Peavey 2 x 15band EQ with FLS

Yorkville AP800W Power amp for monitors

 

(Everything above the Crossover, is for insert channels)

 

 

The board sends 800W to each of the Unity15's, each sub has 1500W of power, and the 800W power amp is for the monitors. I do a 2 channel mix for monitors. Bass/drums share the same mix, and the other 2 share a mix.

Again, I use DDrum triggers for the drum kits into a DM5 brain, and I'm getting kind of tired of them. They are pretty good when I do rock bands, but there are so many varied kick drums and playing styles, I have to almost tweak it for every band (There can be up to 4 bands in a night) Some drummer prefer mics, so I'm considering a mic setup for the drum kits.

 

Now this is all a hobby/weekend thing, I do sound for bands at a couple watering holes, mainly to support the live music scene. I'm definitely not getting rich by any means. It works our really well, and it's been more than enough gear for any situation in the past 7 years. So I'm wondering what you people think of the following drum mic setups....

 

p.s. Money IS an object, and my budget is probably $200 - $400ish

 

http://www.axemusic.com/product.asp?numPageStartPosition=1strSearchCriteria=all&PT_ID=all&P_ID=1712

 

Looks pretty good, lacking condensers, which are included in the $320 package, but I have 3 SM81's that I use for overheads and hi-hat mics

 

I used this setup this weekend, and it seemed pretty good.

 

http://www.axemusic.com/product.asp?P_ID=2104&strPageHistory=search&strKeywords=drum,mic,kit&numPageStartPosition=21&strSearchCriteria=any&PT_ID=all

 

Any thoughts and recommendations are greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

Rob

[KF650SB1000]

I would suggest from my taste & experiences: (Prices are listed at MAP, consult your local dealer for better prices).

1) Audix DP5A ($660) includes: 1-D6 (kick), 1-i5 (snare), 2-D2s (rack toms), 1-D4 (floor tom), clamps/clips & storage case.

2) Audix D6 ($200) for the Kick and a 3 pack of Sennheiser e604 ($350); use an SM57 on snare that you already have.

 

Use a pair SM81 for Hats and Overhead on the bigger shows.

[jimivaughnking]

Another option to keep well under the budget is buy the Audix D6 for kick, use an SM57 for snare and then use your Condenser overheads for toms and cymbals. Works out surprisingly well without individual tom mics and when you do multi-band shows it really helps change overs go much faster. Plus this will accommodate those drummers that still carry 6 rack toms!

[StratGuy22]

 

I would suggest from my taste & experiences: (Prices are listed at MAP, consult your local dealer for better prices). 1) Audix DP5A ($660) includes: 1-D6 (kick), 1-i5 (snare), 2-D2s (rack toms), 1-D4 (floor tom), clamps/clips & storage case. 2) Audix D6 ($200) for the Kick and a 3 pack of Sennheiser e604 ($350); use an SM57 on snare that you already have. Use a pair SM81 for Hats and Overhead on the bigger shows.

 

 

 

I've priced things out locally (the nearest city, Edmonton Alberta Canada) and it shakes out as the following.

 

Option 1 = $840CAD tax included

Option 2 = $735CAD tax included

 

Option 3 = $285CAD tax included

 

I'm thinking I'll see about option 1, then it doesn't tie up my extra 57, and you get a case for everything etc etc. A little pricier than my budget, but I can sell my trigger setup for $350 I'm guessing, which will offset the price. Plus, I make $600 - $800/month from sound gigs, and I've always been of the thinking that if I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it right. So I'll either finance it or save up.

 

With financing, I can get the mics right away, then lump the money from the triggers and gig money onto it, and pay it off in a couple months.

 

Thanks for the help guys, I'll let you know how it all works out. One quick question, will I need much for EQ, gates etc? I only have 6 insert channels on my board, and I prefer to use them for 2 guitars, bass and 3 vocals, if needed... Do the mics sound good enough that I won't need too much fiddling, besides placement and the eq on each strip?

 

That Shure setup I used, I think I just put an insert EQ on the kick...

[Mogwix]

Don't worry about comps and gates. They are nice to have but non-essential.

[Rezrover]

Plus, you don't have enough inserts for them anyways.

[StratGuy22]

Ok sweet. Yeah that's about the only thing I don't like about that Powermax16, I don't know why there's only 6 inserts instead of 12. (2 stereo pairs as well w/o inserts) and the more I think about it, I've gone 7 years with the triggers, a couple more months with them, while I save gig money for the mics will be a better plan. I can live another couple months and pay for them outright. Then the trigger money can be put towards something else.

 

[twostone]

Wow dude your a way nicer guy then I am. I use triggers and tell the drummers if they don't like take a freaking hike. I also use one kit and that's it. Then picked the kit that sounds the best in my system. Just because I have 99 kits doesn't mean I need to use them all in one night.

 

Also the DM5 sound great but are piss poor module for dynamic tracking IME. Biggest problem is when tracking a soft hit and hard hit sometime it gets confused. I use Roland and Ddrum which has perfect dynamic tracking.

The Roland knows a very gentle hit to a sledge hammer hit.

 

I mic the snare. IME triggers on a snare has that god awful machine gun effect. Even with the Roland module, unless you use the Roland pad snare that has the positioning sensor. For me it's just easier to mic the snare because it my be their signature sound.

I also use OH mic so I can get some of the real drums in the mix.

 

If it were me I would {censored} can the DM5 and get a Roland module a TD3 can had dirt cheap on ebay then if you do get a TD3 pan the kick hard left or right and pan the rest of the kit oppsite since I running just toms and kick and run 2 channels on the mixer I can tweak the kick and the toms on the channel strip.

[StratGuy22]

Yeah,I pan the kick to the left, snare to the right, and the toms hard left out the aux outputs. It's just kind of a pain when drummers come in and start whining. If I have good mics and their kit sounds like {censored}, then the problem is their kit, not my end.

 

 

I dunno just thinking of going in a different direction. I try to use one kit all night, when I can, but again, some drummers whine about that. So mics would be better in that I wouldn't have to dial it in for each kit.

[Shaster]

 

Ok sweet. Yeah that's about the only thing I don't like about that Powermax16, I don't know why there's only 6 inserts instead of 12. (2 stereo pairs as well w/o inserts) ....

 

 

As I stated in another thread, I also have the PM16. I think the engineers did a pretty good job of guessing what would be needed on the average gig, and actually added some nice extras.

 

Unfortunately these things are always a compromise and the board is already beyond the "normal" price point for a mixer of that kind.

 

It's my guess that there are no inserts on ch. 1 - 6 because there is already a compressor on those channels (globally switched). I think the engineers figured that a compressor would be the most likely device inserted on drums and bass, and since there is one present, inserts weren't needed. On the downside there are no user parameters, just on and off, and it might be too transparent for some and too obtrusive for others.

 

In a way, it's a convenience factor, more than a lack of features - my opinion of course.

 

 

Anyway, that Audix package (or something of the same quality) would seem to be the way to go.

 

If you decided to get "separates" you could start with the kick and snare, and build from there.

[Rezrover]

Is every gig a situation where you have to have compression on those channels?

[twostone]

Yeah,I pan the kick to the left, snare to the right, and the toms hard left out the aux outputs. It's just kind of a pain when drummers come in and start whining. If I have good mics and their kit sounds like {censored}, then the problem is their kit, not my end. I dunno just thinking of going in a different direction. I try to use one kit all night, when I can, but again, some drummers whine about that. So mics would be better in that I wouldn't have to dial it in for each kit.

 

 

 

 

Like I said your a lot nicer guy then I am I don't put up with drummer's BS that whine about my triggers. I tell them to bring their own mics if they want their kit miced and set up their own mics, clips, cables and stands, because I own the sound system.

Also I have strict rules about what mics I won't use here's a list of drums mics that I refuse to use because their total freaking garbage.

Nady

OSP

CAD

Shure PG

AKG D112

 

I would add a gate, some drummers can't tune at all and you'll have tom ringing like crazy. Also add a K&M tripod mini mic stand for your kick. Round bases kick mic stand on plywood riser don't mix because of vibration transfer.

 

OH's are waste of time in small rooms I wouldn't even bother. The cymbals will bleed in the tom mic snare mic and just about every mic on the stage.

One more tip, side mic the snare and HH that way you can capture both with one mic and just move it around to blend to taste. You need a regular mic boom stand for side micing.

 

Good luck

[Shaster]

 

Is every gig a situation where you have to have compression on those channels?

 

 

Not sure who you're asking. I usually leave the comp off on those channels.

 

I was just postulating that because the PM16 is supposed to be the kitchen sink of powered mixers (four power amps, three aux sends, two fx sends, three EQ's -barely) that comp/limiters (defeatable) were hard wired to channels 1 to 6 as just another feature to "wow" the masses.

 

Never impressed me, but I can see their reasoning.

[Rezrover]

The OP.

[Unalaska]

Drum mics add up quickly. If I were on a budget... The last EV 868 I bought used was 125, EWI doesn't make the tom mics anymore, E604s would be my next choice and since there are only 3 to a pack then get a 57 for snare on a stand.

 

CAD used to make a decent drum mic kit, I dunno though since I haven't really looked at that stuff in a while. The samson kit is ok I guess, the clips are horrid though. Buy some from EWI, they have great clips.

 

I guess you could buy the $160 CAD kit and throw away the bass mic. Then replace the snare mic later... eh, it's so so. Stay away from the shure PG kit, if you're gonna get a set then get the real 52's/56's.

 

BTW, what's with all the EQ's? strange ass curves on there...

[Shaster]

I just tried the new CAD kit on a lark. Never even got as far as a live gig. I had heard that the old CAD kits were good/okay but the new ones - not so much IMHO.

 

Plus they were so poorly made none of my cables would fit properly - actually I was warned by the salesman but didn't believe him. The ends would get stuck in the mics, on a variety of different cables - neutrik, switchcraft, brand "x" - nothing fit.

 

There wasn't one mic in the kit I liked. I was hoping for something to use on "rough" gigs but I would rather risk my "good" mics than use the new CAD kit - YMMV.

[Rezrover]

 

CAD used to make a decent drum mic kit, I dunno though since I haven't really looked at that stuff in a while. The samson kit is ok I guess, the clips are horrid though. Buy some from EWI, they have great clips.

 

 

The Sennheiser clips aren't that great either and I believe the same ones come with both the 604's & 904's.

Kinda looking at the Shure drum mic clips.

[StratGuy22]

 

BTW, what's with all the EQ's? strange ass curves on there...

 

 

They were on insert channels for guitars. I had just did a metal festival and the miss were scooped to hell, and just had NO definition, so I was trying to get some of the mids back into the mix...

[StratGuy22]

There is a 6 week to 90 day wait on the Audix DP5A kit, so I'm going to go with the Sennheiser E604 Drum Pack 1

 

This includes 4 x E604, 1 x E602, 2 x E614 Microphones and Deluxe Aluminum Case - DRUMPACK3

 

That gives me a kick mic, 4 tom mics, 2 overheads, and I can use a 57 on the snare. Thanks for the offer of the better price, but I worry about warranty issues etc etc. My buddy can get me a pretty good price on them, an I can get them here in time for this weekends show.

 

Just did another sound gig last night, have 1 booked for this sat, and 2 for sept already. I could do all of these with the new setup and have them paid off before the Audix kit even arrives

 

Thanks for your help everyone! I'll report back with a review of their sound!!

 

[Antztudio]

Nice rack!!(or has it already been said?)

[StratGuy22]

Nice rack!!(or has it already been said?)

 

Which one? teh PA rack or teh avitar rack?

 

 

[1960LesPaul]

I have the older CAD 411 set that came with 3 411s and 1 kick mic. Never even plugged the kick mic up. The 411s work great on toms. I use a Beta 52 on the kick and a 57 on the snare. I use the EWI mounts.