Members BuildingCastles Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 I was just reading a live sound book the other day and it talked about tilting your PA speakers (on stands) forward, about 2/3rd's of the way to the back of the room. If they're on the floor, the front of the crowd absorbs the sound so everyone else gets muffled sound, and if they're on a stand either level or tilting up, it's just going to go over the crowd. This makes sense to me. So why is it that all amp stands seem to tilt back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members samkokajko Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 Because the goal of the amp stand is so that the amp DOESNT hit the audience. Typically with a raised stage a guitar amp resting on the ground will hit the guitarist at their ankles so they turn up louder, while it's also hitting the audience square in the face. The amp stand let's the guitar amp reach the guitarist's ears at a lower volume and then you mic the amp and let the PA do the coverage (it's better at it anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuildingCastles Posted January 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 Because the goal of the amp stand is so that the amp DOESNT hit the audience. Typically with a raised stage a guitar amp resting on the ground will hit the guitarist at their ankles so they turn up louder, while it's also hitting the audience square in the face. The amp stand let's the guitar amp reach the guitarist's ears at a lower volume and then you mic the amp and let the PA do the coverage (it's better at it anyway). I don't really get that. Why should the PA system be pointing at the audience but not the keyboard/guitar amps? And if you do it right, the people getting hit in the face will be towards the back of the audience, and therefore, not getting as loud of sound. If you point your amp directly at the people in front, of course you're going to need to keep it from being super loud, but if you go over the heads of the people in the front, then it would seem you could crank it more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 I don't really get that. Why should the PA system be pointing at the audience but not the keyboard/guitar amps? I think what the book is referring to is that when a guitar amp is pointing straight at the audience it is not pointed at the guitarist. So since he is off axis he is not hearing the same tone (screaming treble) and tends to adjust his backline amp to compensate for it. So what the audience hears is not what the guitarist intends and so just ends up ripping off their faces. This is really just a point to consider and not an absolute, based on your particular circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuildingCastles Posted January 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 I think what the book is referring to is that when a guitar amp is pointing straight at the audience it is not pointed at the guitarist. So since he is off axis he is not hearing the same tone (screaming treble) and tends to adjust his backline amp to compensate for it. So what the audience hears is not what the guitarist intends and so just ends up ripping off their faces. This is really just a point to consider and not an absolute, based on your particular circumstances. The book was actually talking about PA speakers. I was just wondering why the same method isn't applied to guitar or keyboard amp stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fu2jobu Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 I don't really get that. Why should the PA system be pointing at the audience but not the keyboard/guitar amps? And if you do it right, the people getting hit in the face will be towards the back of the audience, and therefore, not getting as loud of sound. If you point your amp directly at the people in front, of course you're going to need to keep it from being super loud, but if you go over the heads of the people in the front, then it would seem you could crank it more. The PA is meant to project all instruments to the audience, individual amps are meant to project the sound to the musicians (monitors are also used to project the sound to the musicians only). Low stage volume is a beautiful, glorious thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuildingCastles Posted January 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 The PA is meant to project all instruments to the audience, individual amps are meant to project the sound to the musicians (monitors are also used to project the sound to the musicians only). Low stage volume is a beautiful, glorious thing. Huh, so I just bought a gigantic keyboard amp for nothing, seeing as how I'm going to end up using IEM's. Fack. I should have just but my own damn PA system (or IEM's). But in theory, it would make just as much sense to do the same thing with a guitar/keyboard amp if you needed to boost the sound for the audience, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fu2jobu Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 Huh, so I just bought a gigantic keyboard amp for nothing, seeing as how I'm going to end up using IEM's. Fack. I should have just but my own damn PA system (or IEM's). But in theory, it would make just as much sense to do the same thing with a guitar/keyboard amp if you needed to boost the sound for the audience, correct? The louder your instrument amp the less control the soundman has of the overall sound. If the sound needs to be boosted it's best if the person running the sound from the audience does it rather than the guy onstage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuildingCastles Posted January 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 The louder your instrument amp the less control the soundman has of the overall sound. If the sound needs to be boosted it's best if the person running the sound from the audience does it rather than the guy onstage. I had considered that, but my amp can connect to a mixer, so can't they control the volume from there? It has two inputs and outputs for a mixer. I'm assuming that's the point of those connections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 Most, if not all guitar amps beam. That is to say they project their sound in a comparatively narrow beam - at least in realtionship to where you would want tthe sound to cover. As I understand it; the horn on PA speakers helps resolve this issue (to a degree) by creating a wider pattern coverage in some of the prominent frequencies that generate that beaming effect.. But don't try putting a horn on your guitar amp - it's been done with usually unfavourable results. So you want the laser beam of guitar sound aimed at your head (or at least shielded) and not taimed at he audience members that are standing in the ten foot "sweet" spot - a misnomer if I ever heard one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuildingCastles Posted January 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 Most, if not all guitar amps beam. That is to say they project their sound in a comparatively narrow beam - at least in realtionship to where you would want tthe sound to cover.As I understand it; the horn on PA speakers helps resolve this issue (to a degree) by creating a wider pattern coverage in some of the prominent frequencies that generate that beaming effect.. But don't try putting a horn on your guitar amp - it's been done with usually unfavourable results.So you want the laser beam of guitar sound aimed at your head (or at least shielded) and not taimed at he audience members that are standing in the ten foot "sweet" spot - a misnomer if I ever heard one! Ok, I guess I should have specified this in the beginning, I'm really just talking about a keyboard amp, at least, for my personal concerns (was talking about amps in general, just as a general curiosity, though). I will be playing some guitar through it via amp modeling software, but it's still just a keyboard amp. The Roland KC550, to be really specific. It has a horn tweeter, but since it's not a guitar amp, I'm guessing the results would be different (it gets awesome reviews). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 Horns.... are standard for keyboard amps. Roland does make some nice keyboard amps IIRC. In smaller rooms it's nice to have a decent amp that can be your main source of information. In larger rooms it's nice to have a good keyboard amp (or monitor) so that you can moniotr yourself properly, while the majority of the signal is reproduced through the mains. As long as you didn't overpay for your product it was probably a good investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 Huh, so I just bought a gigantic keyboard amp for nothing, seeing as how I'm going to end up using IEM's. Fack. I should have just but my own damn PA system (or IEM's). But in theory, it would make just as much sense to do the same thing with a guitar/keyboard amp if you needed to boost the sound for the audience, correct? If your entire band is using IEMs you don't really need a keyboard amp at all. Of course it will come in handy for practice and rehearsals, and other places where you can't use IEMs. As mentioned though, the more work you let the PA do and the less work you let the stage amps do, the more control you'll have over your sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan. Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 Beam of death is no fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuildingCastles Posted January 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 If your entire band is using IEMs you don't really need a keyboard amp at all. Of course it will come in handy for practice and rehearsals, and other places where you can't use IEMs. As mentioned though, the more work you let the PA do and the less work you let the stage amps do, the more control you'll have over your sound. Like I said, I think the mixing booth can control the KC550. What else would those connections be for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fu2jobu Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 I had considered that, but my amp can connect to a mixer, so can't they control the volume from there? It has two inputs and outputs for a mixer. I'm assuming that's the point of those connections. Yes the soundman can control the sound and thats what the outputs are for. However, if your stage volume is loud enough to cover the entire audience the soundman will just leave the fader all the way down effectively leaving you out of the PA. You can certainly use the backline instruments to reinforce the PA but some bands still try to go full blast on stage negating the benefits of the PA and to some extent the soundman IMO. The good news is it's a keyboard amp and as far as I know you don't need to drive the amp to get a good sound (unlike some guitar amp setups). Keep things at a reasonable level and if/when needed you will have some extra volume you can add. IMO the best way to sound good is so that everyone onstage can hear everyone elses instrument and the soundman has a lot of control over how the mix sounds to the audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuildingCastles Posted January 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 Yes the soundman can control the sound and thats what the outputs are for. However, if your stage volume is loud enough to cover the entire audience the soundman will just leave the fader all the way down effectively leaving you out of the PA. You can certainly use the backline instruments to reinforce the PA but some bands still try to go full blast on stage negating the benefits of the PA and to some extent the soundman IMO.The good news is it's a keyboard amp and as far as I know you don't need to drive the amp to get a good sound (unlike some guitar amp setups). Keep things at a reasonable level and if/when needed you will have some extra volume you can add. IMO the best way to sound good is so that everyone onstage can hear everyone elses instrument and the soundman has a lot of control over how the mix sounds to the audience. That makes sense. I understand the value of someone in the back (and someone with free hands) having control over everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NUSound Posted January 6, 2011 Members Share Posted January 6, 2011 If you're on IEM's, you can (and, IMO, should) leave the amp at home. The rest of the band can just use whatever monitoring system that they're using to hear the keys sound. Picture the amp/PA as a giant flashlight. If the amp is sitting on the ground, you're going to be illuminating the backs of your calves and the front row will be blinded by it, but everyone behind them is going to be blocked by the front row. If you tilt the amp backwards, it'll be 'shining' on the back of your head, much closer to your ears. For the PA, also picture a flashlight, but pretend the back wall is a mirror. If you shine it straight back you're going to get a lot more reflected right back at you. If you tilt them down (while being above everyone's head) not only is the 'light' more spread out, but you won't be reflecting as much back at the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted January 7, 2011 Members Share Posted January 7, 2011 Horns.... are standard for keyboard amps. Roland does make some nice keyboard amps IIRC. I realize that what constitutes a "nice keyboard amp" is a highly subjective topic ... however I suspect you'll be hard pressed to find much love for Roland keyboard amps on any of the keyboard forums I frequent. I'd compare Roland Keyboard amp love with that which Behringer products usually get on this forum...... Just saying..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted January 7, 2011 Members Share Posted January 7, 2011 If you're on IEM's, you can (and, IMO, should) leave the amp at home. The rest of the band can just use whatever monitoring system that they're using to hear the keys sound. Without knowing what the rest of the monitoring system is and/or the stage volumes involved - I don't think you can credibly make this statement. My PA's monitor rig consists of 4 Yamaha wedges - connected in 2 strings of 2 wedges each - with each string powered by a QSC1450 power amp. We're a six piece that includes a sax player an in which everybody sings. We rely on instrument amps to for stage monitoring - and use the PA monitors strictly for sax and vocals. If I were to leave my keyboard amplification at home and rely on the monitors to carry keys on top of the sax and vocals we already send through 'em - our vocalists would scream bloody murder. Eliminating stage amps is a laudible goal - but something that can only be done effective when the PA stage monitoring is correctly sized and configured to accomodate the monitoring needs of everybody on the platform. A "run it through the monitors" solution takes on a totally different complexion when you're talking about the typical weekend warrior rig in which "monitors" equate to a couple of wedges to cover a couple of vocalists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuildingCastles Posted January 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 7, 2011 I realize that what constitutes a "nice keyboard amp" is a highly subjective topic ... however I suspect you'll be hard pressed to find much love for Roland keyboard amps on any of the keyboard forums I frequent. I'd compare Roland Keyboard amp love with that which Behringer products usually get on this forum...... Just saying..... Huh, pretty much everyone who bought one on Musicians Friend loved their Roland KC 550. Guess I should have checked other sites for reviews. Oh well, either way, I think I'm going to take advantage of their return policy and send this back for store credit and just get some IEM's. I will only have one or two other people playing with me, so it will probably cost about the same to supply everyone with a decent IEM. It seems that in my situation, an amp is just a waste of money. I guess this will depend on how insane shipping is. Thanks everyone for the replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.