Members scarecrowbob Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 I almost feel like this is off topic. Not to mention it is a little on the opposite side of the board from most questions that get asked here. But I'll post it anyway: this is a "production" forum, and so maybe one of you has a good answer for me. Plus, in the big scheme of things, this is a small potatoes business question. How do you bill a client for booking and advancing shows? The situation is that a venue I do marketing (and some show advances) with potentially wants me to book 2-3 regional bands in their venue per week, in addition to some larger "special" acts. Is there some obvious standard arrangement people have? A percentage of the door? A set fee? Hourly? The last guy had a pretty large salary (by my standards), and I think I might eventually go a similar route. But not only did I get thrown under that guy's tour bus, they eventually the owners decided to go it on their own. In the end, I already have a solution (set fee +expenses +hourly) and my clients have a lot more money than time, plus they trust me. So I could "get away" with a lot, though I would prefer to do something that makes both the bands and the venue money Even though one obvious answer is "as much as I can" these folks are good clients and I do other stuff for them. It looks like I might have a lot of work which I enjoy and can do but have never billed. That, and I think that it could be a rather large bloom in the growth of my business. Any suggestions? Even a more appropriate place to ask the question would be helpful. Heck, maybe general business advice would be helpful. I know it is like asking for medical advice, but, then I have been on this forum since just after the olga and have a pretty good idea of who knows what. Sorry for the non-equipment oriented question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KellyMainEvent Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 I own/operate a sound & lighting company and if someone I know books a gig for us, I give them 10% AFTER expenses. Usually it's under $1,000.00. So after labor, gas, misc., etc, the person only usually gets around $70.00 commission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 The agents we sometimes use two different methods. One (who gets us the BIG money gigs) charges us a flat $100 per show. He does this as a sideline to his involvement in television so money is not his driver at this point. The other agent makes her living from bookings so she is more expensive. She charges a flat 20% of whatever the band walks away with at the end of the night which includes everything from door to guarantee (and that is before expenses.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted April 4, 2011 CMS Author Share Posted April 4, 2011 Sorry for the non-equipment oriented question. No need to apologize, this IS a production forum, and the business office end is a very valid discussion.After all, you can't buy gear to ask or talk about here if you never get paid!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 Jobs like this are all about managing expectations so, before even setting a price structure, find out the exact expectations of the venue. Are you responsible for things such as negotiating the booking agreement, vetting the rider and then coordinating things needed from the rider, hospitality...etc. Do you have to be there for load in? Are you expected to attend the shows? What is involved in promotion? (radio, print ads, posters, email mailing lists, facebook, website)? Who's dime is any monies spent on promotion on (are you to spend and be reimbursed)? Is it your responsibility to book replacements for cancellations? If so is it expected you'll do this for free? So sit down and make an exhaustive list of anything you can think of that might be related to doing the job. If applicable, call out any responsibilities you aren't willing to take on. What's left are the services you're ready willing and able to do. Not only does this set the job description, but it allows you to up-sell. As far as how to structure compensation, while hourly would work best for you as far as being guaranteed to be paid for you time, my guess is it won't be the smoothest route to go. I'm assuming you're "off site" so there's not much of an audit trail there. If I was the employer I'd require an itemized list of what you did and when you did it, and that's a PITA. The flip side is that a set fee means you'll be more likely to be asked to do "more stuff" for nothing. That's why expectations are so important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scarecrowbob Posted April 4, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 "Jobs like this are all about managing expectations so, before even setting a price structure, find out the exact expectations of the venue." Oh, I have a pretty good handle on the expectations. The situation itself is fairly bizarre -- I don't want to get into, but income from the venue is not the owners primary motivation. And they are friends of mine who I have been working with for more than a year. And they are a bit odd, but have always taken care of me as far as money. The specifics are pretty clear to me; if I need to be there, I need to be there, but that is unusual. If there is a hospitality/tech rider, I need to meet it. But that and the promo costs are all on their dime. For that matter, most of the work I do for them is promo, so we have a reliable price structure for creating assets and trafficking, etc. "After all, you can't buy gear to ask or talk about here if you never get paid!!" Though honestly, I much prefer to operate gear I do not own . The best thing in my life is advising folks on what they need for a project and then seeing it work (well, and getting paid for that ). As far as the percentage thing, that works well when you are booking for a band: the band makes more so you make more. However, booking for the venue it doesn't seem like the best deal for the venue . For now, I will be considering the project as an hourly thing (I'll charge them my hourly/day rate) when I have to be on site, and the a fee based thing for the project-oriented stuff that mirrors the other work I do with them. Thanks for the feedback guys-- it helps me a lot just to write stuff out, and your comments are good food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 I'd say do this based on percentage since you're basically acting as an inside agent/buyer. 10% or 7.5% is what I've seen and you can buy other acts and split the 15 or 20% commission on them. Either this or a decent salary since your hours are going to be long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Telecruiser Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 Jobs like this are all about managing expectations so, before even setting a price structure, find out the exact expectations of the venue. Are you responsible for things such as negotiating the booking agreement, vetting the rider and then coordinating things needed from the rider, hospitality...etc. Do you have to be there for load in? Are you expected to attend the shows? What is involved in promotion? (radio, print ads, posters, email mailing lists, facebook, website)? Who's dime is any monies spent on promotion on (are you to spend and be reimbursed)? Is it your responsibility to book replacements for cancellations? If so is it expected you'll do this for free? So sit down and make an exhaustive list of anything you can think of that might be related to doing the job. If applicable, call out any responsibilities you aren't willing to take on. What's left are the services you're ready willing and able to do. Not only does this set the job description, but it allows you to up-sell. As far as how to structure compensation, while hourly would work best for you as far as being guaranteed to be paid for you time, my guess is it won't be the smoothest route to go. I'm assuming you're "off site" so there's not much of an audit trail there. If I was the employer I'd require an itemized list of what you did and when you did it, and that's a PITA. The flip side is that a set fee means you'll be more likely to be asked to do "more stuff" for nothing. That's why expectations are so important. Good advice! It is always good to know how deep the water is before you agree to jump in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 We've used booking agents quite a bit in the past and still do on one-off type occasions. Generally, they negotiate our rate at a venue and take 15% off the top (before expenses). So, if we make $1000 at a gig...the agent get's $150 and we get $850. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gordon Sound Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 If you work for the venue usually its a Salary type deal that Should average about 10%-15% of the money spent. The should also reimburse you for expenses like cell phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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