Digital console questions

[schismpunk]

So as more and more companies come out with digital desks, and more and more versions of the same concept become proprietary, I'm getting a little lost with some of the features of the different consoles. I haven't been able to find a good article on the benefits and requirements of one system over another, and some of the websites (particularly Yamaha's) are a maze of confusion.

 

Let's take four desks, for example: the Presonus SL24, the Yammy LS9, the DiGiCo SD9, and the Avid Venue. Obviously these desks cover a wide budget range.

 

My questions:

 

What kind of peripherals are available and required for each of these systems to operate at the minimum level? For instance, digital snake systems, expansion cards, networking equipment, laptops, etc.

 

To what extent can these desks eliminate outboard equipment? i.e. Can they provide dynamics processing for every channel? How many channels can be assigned to digital effects? How many digital effects can be running simultaneously? How many 31-band EQ's are assignable, and where, and what advantage might the differences provide?

 

What are macros, and how do the boards compare? This is one area I have no experience in, but saw that it was a feature on the SD9.

 

Outside of the SL24, how does the software for scene memory cross over to other consoles, and do any of these consoles provide some sort of advantage in regards to scene memory?

 

What other advantages do each board have over another that I haven't listed, that might justify their price tags? I obviously can't cover everything, and I definitely don't know every advantage digital boards have in the first place. Any educational input is appreciated, and feel free to only answer part of the questions. Thanks!

[twostone]

Well for me I switch from a analog mixer over to a SL 16 mixer because of it's user friendly features. I know the others you mention have way more features but way more of a steeper learning curve. Really don't want my head stuck in a book for long time trying to figure out how to navigate through different scenes for different features.

I think it why a lot of folks like the PSL mixers because their very user friendly and don't require a huge steep learning curve.

Now that they been out a few years they have a little bit of a track record history.

[TimmyP]

To really talk about the differences would take a lot of work. Reading the poop sheets on them will give you a pretty good idea.

 

I'd love to have an SD9 at the theater, but it would be hard to justify something that's $14k more than our LS9-32 and analog snake. And I still might miss the extra faders :-)

[Dogoth]

What he said ^

 

The boards mentioned are so different and diverse (price wise as well as features) that it's like comparing apples, oranges, banannas & grapes.

 

As far as I know they all have dynamics available everywhere, at least 4 FX units (some more) and are all expandable. The Venue is a series of consoles that share a common architecture but the top end to the bottom are totaly different boards (IMO these are probably the most expandable and configurable but it WILL cost you to do so). None of them share scene information that I know of (even different models by the same manufacturer don't).

 

The only way to know what meets your requirments (for now and into the future) is to study the spec sheets. As TimmyP says, you're asking for reams of info that can't really fit well into a post here.

[schismpunk]

 

The boards mentioned are so different and diverse (price wise as well as features) that it's like comparing apples, oranges, banannas & grapes.

 

 

That's exactly why I picked these boards. In what context would you use each of them and with what reasoning? I guess we can leave the SL24 out of the discussion, since I'm pretty clear on the application, but what is it that makes the Venue stuff 100 grand and the LS9-32 $11,000?

 

I understand I asked a lot of questions, and being new to the pro digital stuff, I'd be satisfied with basic answers about why one would value certain feature sets for different applications. Why are there so many different Yamaha boards (or digico), and what aspect of them makes them appropriate for one use and not for another?

 

Thanks again.

[jasps]

 

Fair enough. I wasn't expecting anyone to write out every feature, mainly just the things that separate them. Part of the problem for me is understanding some of the specs in layman's terms, for example the macros. The manufacturers websites are happy to throw around their proprietary terms and model numbers without really explaining the benefits or purposes. That's exactly why I picked these boards. In what context would you use each of them and with what reasoning? I guess we can leave the SL24 out of the discussion, since I'm pretty clear on the application, but what is it that makes the Venue stuff 100 grand and the LS9-32 $11,000? I understand I asked a lot of questions, and being new to the pro digital stuff, I'd be satisfied with basic answers about why one would value certain feature sets for different applications. Why are there so many different Yamaha boards (or digico), and what aspect of them makes them appropriate for one use and not for another? Thanks again.

 

When you have a need for a digital console you write down a list of things you need it to do. In the Yamaha family, for example, there are definite, stratified layers of what each console is able to do and how each console does it. Sometimes, you "can" do with a lesser console, but the hardware interfacing doesn't work like you want it to...

 

You start with objective requirements, and from there, move on to subjective things within your price bracket. I think a "macro" is just a user-defined and programmed control that allows one the ability to do certain things quickly.

 

A Venue is (sometimes) $100k because it can record to direct to PT, has the ability to use third party plugins, delay on every input, a fairly good bus setup, DCAs, a digital snake and almost 100 input mixing.

 

An LS9 can mix 64 channels into 16 auxes, plus LCR and a matrix. There are only four FX engines and 2 dynamics engines/channel w/4 band EQ and a HPF. There are no DCA or VCAs. No digital snake included. It is in a completely different class compared to a PM5d or Venue system.

[Dogoth]

Well the Venue SC48 is more like around $20-$25k but I'm sure that their top end console, fully loaded is $100k or better. The Venue is basicly protools with an elaborate hardware controller. One of the great advantages is that you can run any of the RTAS plugins that you'd use with protools (vintage compressers, etc....). Their higher end boards are extremly versitile as far as expandability (adding IOs).

 

There are several things that supposedly justify a big price tag. They are number of actual analog inputs & outputs (good converters are expensive), the quality of the converters and the processing (sample rate = high freq coherency, bit depth = S/N ratio), the UI (a well thought out color touch screen is MUCH better and faster to navigate around than a tiny monocrome LCD screen), recallable trims (the front end input gain control (converters all work at line level so to automate & recall input gain requires a digitaly controlled VCA for each channel)), build quality, just to name a few.

 

Macros are just user assignable buttons that can do whatever you assign them to do (like recall scenes, bring up certain pages F.I. FX, graphics, channel strip view, etc (I have one that calls up a mute group called "all Mute" and one than adjusts my pannel lights from SC to lowered show brightness). They are a quick 1 button approach to make your work flow go faster and better.

 

As said before. there is a lot to digital boards and a lot more than can be discussed in a single thread. As with an analog console, you look at your needs, your budget and then start shopping for mixers that hopefully meet those criteria.

[NUSound]

It's tough to explain the differences in a way that someone who hasn't used digital will understand (no offense intended).

 

 

As said before. there is a lot to digital boards and a lot more than can be discussed in a single thread. As with an analog console, you look at your needs, your budget and then start shopping for mixers that hopefully meet those criteria.

 

 

Then you start shopping for 40-50 channels of outboard gear... and open a whole 'nother can of worms.

[Dogoth]

 

It's tough to explain the differences in a way that someone who hasn't used digital will understand (no offense intended). Then you start shopping for 40-50 channels of outboard gear... and open a whole 'nother can of worms.

 

 

Ha! Ha! One of the HUGE advantages (both cost and convenience) of digital boards.

[fdew]

 

There are several things that supposedly justify a big price tag. They are number of actual analog inputs & outputs (good converters are expensive), the quality of the converters and the processing (sample rate = high freq coherency, bit depth = S/N ratio), the UI (a well thought out color touch screen is MUCH better and faster to navigate around than a tiny monocrome LCD screen), recallable trims (the front end input gain control (converters all work at line level so to automate & recall input gain requires a digitaly controlled VCA for each channel)), build quality, just to name a few. Macros are just user assignable buttons that can do whatever you assign them to do (like recall scenes, bring up certain pages F.I. FX, graphics, channel strip view, etc (I have one that calls up a mute group called "all Mute" and one than adjusts my pannel lights from SC to lowered show brightness). They are a quick 1 button approach to make your work flow go faster and better. As said before. there is a lot to digital boards and a lot more than can be discussed in a single thread. As with an analog console, you look at your needs, your budget and then start shopping for mixers that hopefully meet those criteria.

 

 

All very good comments. I think you need to ask your self what you want from a digital that you aren't getting with analog, and what if anything are you willing to give up. (Yes there are advantages to analog)

 

On a analog console everything is right there. You can see it all and nothing moves. If the frazastan mic starts to make a noise, you know right where it is, Reach for it and fix it. On many but not all digital boards there is not a fader and a knob for every feature of every channel so how will you know what is going on and how will you get to it. As said, a BIG touch screen is a big help. My console has a meter showing for each input (in my case 40 ch) and each output. I like that a lot. On the other hand it only has 16 real faders.

 

Other things to look for, Are there scribble strips above the faders? (electronic board tape) How easy is it to get to the effects and EQ of a channel, (often called a wide channel or fat channel) How easy is it to adjust things when you get there?

 

Can you save and walk away with your settings (USB key for instance)

 

How do you name and save a scene? Can you do it quickly, Is there a keyboard?

 

Regarding digital snakes, If you need one, I think it should be closely linked with the console. You don't want to go from analog to digital for the snake, then back to analog into the console, back to digital, ETC. It could be to much latency (Each conversion adds latency) Most consoles these days are very short latency, but if you are running IEMs or other critical monitor applications you want to know the total latency. Over 10 ms and some people will start to notice.

 

On the other hand, being able to adjust the time delay on my cans is something I like a lot.

 

Frank