Lowball gigs: a case study

[scarecrowbob]

http://www.statesman.com/news/local/in-suit-lawyer-says-sxsw-injury-has-halted-1791217.html

 

"His lawsuit claims that Brown was negligent in operating the equipment and that Steve Madden and OnSlot were negligent in hiring him. The suit said that Brown, whose website notes that he has worked booms at concerts by the likes of ZZ Top and Randy Travis, responded to an online advertisement seeking a camera operator to work for $50 a day plus meals."

 

Of course, we all hate lawyers, but that just adds to the complexity of an odd situation.

[agedhorse]

Funny posting in an ironic way.

 

Last night, I TD's and PM'd a show just like this and made the video operator shorten his boom and counterweight for safety purposes. He was not a happy camper but had no option. Then a laser operator brough in 4 class IV laser projectors for an arial display as part of the show and fired up a laser while personel were in the house without any warning to clear the room, nor were they wearing safety glasses or following any other safety precautions. I shut them down and asked them for their paperwork which they had poor documentation of, and their safety manual (which they did not have). I cleared the room and made them set their lower mechanical limits (masking of the lowest area the beam may cover) while I witnessed each test and I made the promoter witness it too. Again grumpy techs but I really chewed them a new asshole when they admitted that it was just too much of a hassle and too expensive to follow the rules.

 

This, folks, is how people get hurt.

[harryh]

Not that this is or isn't the right forum for this, but head injuries can be very tricky.

It's not just the laceration on the outside that show what happens. A lot of the time there is a brain injury on the side of the head where you can see the damage and also on the other side of the head where you can't. The original 'force' causes the first injury and pushes the brain into the other side of the head, where another injury occurs.

 

Read about it here, if you want to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coup_contrecoup_injury

 

And horse, you are absolutely my Hero for making those guys do it right. You didn't by any chance record the ass-chewin' and post it to youtube, did you?

[Reson8tor]

This whole idea of flying video cameras out over the audience is becoming very popular, as the HD cameras get lighter in weight and the motorized heads get cheaper. I've seen these "jibs" used for wedding shoots, for cryin' out loud. It's the modern equivalent of the crane shot (and there's a hilarious ongoing joke about that with the old Second City TV series, for those of you old enough to remember).

 

Expect this idea to filter down to smaller gigs. Y'all are going to have to cope with these safety issues on a regular basis. A camera jib operated by someone who knows what they're doing, is in a completely different ballpark from someone trying it for the first time because it's "cool."

[agedhorse]

 

And horse, you are absolutely my Hero for making those guys do it right. You didn't by any chance record the ass-chewin' and post it to youtube, did you?

 

 

The thought did cross my mind, but the tempers were such that it probably would have sent them over the edge. I also thought about just sending them home because they didn't have all the safety gear and safety manual and paperwork but again the temper of the event could have put me in danger. You can bet that there will be another revision of our rules manual and contract regarding both of these subjects. Just when you think you have things idiot-proof there comes a new and even more amazing breed of idiots.

[Coaster]

i suffered a permanent brain injury that altered my personality in 2002. its no joke, and the consequences are staggering. the rest of this guys life will be radically different.

[harryh]

 

i suffered a permanent brain injury that altered my personality in 2002. its no joke, and the consequences are staggering. the rest of this guys life will be radically different.

 

 

Coaster, you have mail!

[Dogoth]

 

i suffered a permanent brain injury that altered my personality in 2002. its no joke, and the consequences are staggering. the rest of this guys life will be radically different.

 

 

So that's why you write that way :poke:

 

Sorry but you DID set yourself up for that one! Truly I'm sorry and BTW I like the way you write :-)

[scarecrowbob]

"its no joke, and the consequences are staggering. the rest of this guys life will be radically different."

 

FWIW, I think that folks should be compensated for injuries like the guy in the story; the only reason I set this up with the "we all hate lawyers but..." line is that if you read the comment thread on the news story the folks in Austin are pretty uniformly of the opinion that the guy is just a lawyer out to make a buck.

 

But regardless of the specifics of who got hurt, and even the (v)idiotic nature of the boom op, it seems important to me to point out that when you are involved in a production, you take on some of the liability for that production.

 

The fact that we create responsibilities to the folks around us and the possibility that folks who are hiring $50 a day video ops can't really cover that responsibility they draw on themselves, is why I am interested in the article.

[The 615]

I once did a gig at a local club for a lowball price. The owner wanted to pay $25 for the gig. I said Id do it once to show him what I could do. Every employee in the place even the owner said it sounded better than it ever has. This was a gig with 2 well known artists. I nailed it. He then wanted me back for the same fee. I said no thanks. Sometimes you have to say no.

[Unalaska]

I don't get it, why do a gig for such a crazy low price? to prove that you can work for nothing all day every day?

 

Even if you're regular rate was (picking a number out of the air here...) $1000 a gig. You do the 1st gig for $50. How long would it take to recoup the losses on the 1st gig working more at the regular rate? Well, you'd have to charge MORE than the 1K per gig do actually do this. How about $100 more? 9.5gigs to recover.

[The 615]

 

I don't get it, why do a gig for such a crazy low price? to prove that you can work for nothing all day every day? Even if you're regular rate was (picking a number out of the air here...) $1000 a gig. You do the 1st gig for $50. How long would it take to recoup the losses on the 1st gig working more at the regular rate? Well, you'd have to charge MORE than the 1K per gig do actually do this. How about $100 more? 9.5gigs to recover.

 

 

Well I took the gig because I wanted to get my name out in this town. Also it was 2 major label artists at the time. In nashville the club owners do not have to pay anything because there are so many people willing to do it for peanuts and tips. I had a good ears night and told him I wouldnt do it unless he paid my regular rate. He passed.

[NUSound]

 

I don't get it, why do a gig for such a crazy low price? to prove that you can work for nothing all day every day? Even if you're regular rate was (picking a number out of the air here...) $1000 a gig. You do the 1st gig for $50. How long would it take to recoup the losses on the 1st gig working more at the regular rate? Well, you'd have to charge MORE than the 1K per gig do actually do this. How about $100 more? 9.5gigs to recover.

 

 

If a $50 gig is going to guarantee you a $1k gig down the road, it's worth it - that's a 20x ROI and the $50 + time is little more than advertising costs, but the odds of this happening are minuscule. With all of the promises of "getting your name out there" it's all just a load of hooey. Seriously, how many gigs does a band have to go through before someone in the audience says "wow, I want to book these guys." 50? 100? It's probably closer to a 1000 for sound guys.

[jgthatsme]

There's a saying among AFM musicians: The only thing you get from doing free work is the opportunity to do more free work. I learned this lesson long ago and never donate my time on the off chance that a single or slew of regular paying gigs will come along as a result of doing a free gig or an extraordinarily low paying gig. Don't get me wrong - I'm not a cheap SOB. I do donate my time and energy to causes I wish to support without any expectation or hopes that I'll get more bookings as a result. However, when I get a cold call from someone who has never booked me for any event and asks if my band will donate our time, I politely decline or offer them a discounted rate, never free or dirt cheap. Inevitably, I hear the line "there will be lots of people there and you will get lots of exposure." It's at that point that I definitely know we're not doing it. And by the way, I can't count the number of cold calls I've received over the years not only asking me if the band will donate our time and talent, but then on top of that it's mentioned that they'd appreciate some sort of monetary contribution or a gift in the name of the band which could be raffled (for the additional advertising and exposure). On top of that, they expect my PA system to be available announcing raffles, chinese auction results, 50/50 splits, etc. I can't run away fast enough.

[The 615]

 

There's a saying among AFM musicians: The only thing you get from doing free work is the opportunity to do more free work. I learned this lesson long ago and never donate my time on the off chance that a single or slew of regular paying gigs will come along as a result of doing a free gig or an extraordinarily low paying gig. Don't get me wrong - I'm not a cheap SOB. I do donate my time and energy to causes I wish to support without any expectation or hopes that I'll get more bookings as a result. However, when I get a cold call from someone who has never booked me for any event and asks if my band will donate our time, I politely decline or offer them a discounted rate, never free or dirt cheap. Inevitably, I hear the line "there will be lots of people there and you will get lots of exposure." It's at that point that I definitely know we're not doing it. And by the way, I can't count the number of cold calls I've received over the years not only asking me if the band will donate our time and talent, but then on top of that it's mentioned that they'd appreciate some sort of monetary contribution or a gift in the name of the band which could be raffled (for the additional advertising and exposure). On top of that, they expect my PA system to be available announcing raffles, chinese auction results, 50/50 splits, etc. I can't run away fast enough.

 

 

 

Thats all great but in nashville the AFM isnt as strong because the club owners know that if the AFM guys wont do it cheap then someone else will. It sucks but thats how it goes here. The AFM doesnt really help sound guys anyway. At least not here. I could have joined but the club owners and sound reinforcement companies dont really care about union wages.

[Unalaska]

Unfortunately there is little or no union prescence here, plus the number of people who at any one time can get a crap gig and call themselves musicians is astounding. Everytime Boeing lays off a few thousand a bunch of ex-empoyees decide they'll get gigs until they get hired on again.

 

OK, change the numbers a little. $25 gig, normal rate is 250. If you do the $25 gig and 1 $250 (normal rate?) what is the average you've been paid? $275/2, 137.50. Would you do 2 shows for $137.50? 3 shows: $525 gross /3 = 175. 4 shows: $193ish.

 

It takes 4+ shows to get back in the black but due to basic math you'll never get the full rate since the 1st was basically free. And how many shows do you expect out of the promoter? How many people has the club owner told about your almost free rate? Whatever your actual rate is all I can remember is you did 1 show for $25.

 

Not to be too hard on the point, I have a couple friends in nashville and it really tough out there. The economics are skewed since basically you've got this population of touring players that are home for 5 months with nothing to do and gone the rest of the year. That and the cheap clubs artificially lower the pay for musicians. As a sound-tech, are you a musician or something else? If you're something else does that tie you to the price of a musician still?

[The 615]

 

Unfortunately there is little or no union prescence here, plus the number of people who at any one time can get a crap gig and call themselves musicians is astounding. Everytime Boeing lays off a few thousand a bunch of ex-empoyees decide they'll get gigs until they get hired on again. OK, change the numbers a little. $25 gig, normal rate is 250. If you do the $25 gig and 1 $250 (normal rate?) what is the average you've been paid? $275/2, 137.50. Would you do 2 shows for $137.50? 3 shows: $525 gross /3 = 175. 4 shows: $193ish. It takes 4+ shows to get back in the black but due to basic math you'll never get the full rate since the 1st was basically free. And how many shows do you expect out of the promoter? How many people has the club owner told about your almost free rate? Whatever your actual rate is all I can remember is you did 1 show for $25. Not to be too hard on the point, I have a couple friends in nashville and it really tough out there. The economics are skewed since basically you've got this population of touring players that are home for 5 months with nothing to do and gone the rest of the year. That and the cheap clubs artificially lower the pay for musicians. As a sound-tech, are you a musician or something else? If you're something else does that tie you to the price of a musician still?

 

 

I WAS a sound guy. I quit because there just isnt enough work here. Everyone in nashville is either a sound guy,singer or a guitar player. I took the gig for less than my normal rate because I needed to show him what I could do. I did that. He was impressed but not enough to pay my normal rate. I said Id do the club gig for $125 for a 4 hour show. This is just for me no gear is being rented. If I had a PA to rent my rates would be much higher. PA gear isnt cheap. I also told the guy I wouldnt lower my rate for him but the one time. He didnt care because he knows that he can find another guy who will. This town is full of people who will work in a club for chump change. Its pathetic. We have 5 schools cranking out sound guys every year so he can pay what he wants until the sound guys get together and refuse to work for the low rates.

[lonotes]

 

Inevitably, I hear the line "there will be lots of people there and you will get lots of exposure."

 

 

People die from "exposure" all the time.

[jgthatsme]

 

Thats all great but in nashville the AFM isnt as strong because the club owners know that if the AFM guys wont do it cheap then someone else will. It sucks but thats how it goes here. The AFM doesnt really help sound guys anyway. At least not here. I could have joined but the club owners and sound reinforcement companies dont really care about union wages.

 

 

That isn't unique to Nashville. It's the same just about everywhere. Musicians are their own worst enemy.

[Unalaska]

Yeah, 125 is about right for a walk in sound gig. You're right on the schools cranking out "sound engineers", WTF? And they "graduate" with tens of thousands in debt, hungry for the gigs that aren't there at all.

 

I've hire a few art institute "graduates", every single one I've had major issues with, most consistently has been the poor attitude.

[Zeromus-X]

 

I hear the line "there will be lots of people there and you will get lots of exposure."

 

 

At that point, I'd offer the suggestion that if there will be that many people there, they should look into a corporate sponsor who will be willing to pay for advertising to offset the cost of a good band, and that any band working for free or for "exposure" will likely not be a band that would leave a good impression on all those people.