Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 Here is a math problem... I play keyboards in a band with two keyboard players. We setup on opposite sides of the stage (stage left and right) and we submix all our keys in stereo down to two stereo channels on the FOH mixer. I actually submix my keys twice... for the benefit of saving space on the board, and also both keyboard players can monitor each other. I recently changed some cabling and recently have had some issues monitoring my keys. Here is the chain and the way I have it setup. I have four synths send to a rack line mixer using a 20ft custom snake I've made (4 dual TS cables). The stereo outs travel a short distance to an ART Iso Transformer. I then send this mix across stage to the other keys player using two 30ft XLR cables. He sends his mix (in a second line mixer) and mine (using a single stereo channel) to the FOH using the main outs. Using the aux out on his line mixer he sends me a monitor mix of our keys with a 30ft speaker cable. The problem I have is my signal seem a tad compromised (you think). I find that to have a signal level comparable to the other keys player I need to seriously peg all my channel volumes leaving little left in headroom (in comparison he is at a third of my levels). In addition, and more curious is I can barely hear the monitor mix he sends me period. I'm using a QSC K8 and it's pegged at +10db. I am sending my keys mix nearly 50ft. before it reaches the second submix. Is the distance compromising the volume of the mix I'm sending? Can I, should I use a DI in conjunction or in place of the ISO transformer. Will that help improve things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MJastrzebski Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 Why are you using a speaker cable to send signal to your monitor (QSC K8)? The K8 is a powered speaker cabinet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 Is his aux out line level? Is it balanced or unbalanced? Should not be a speaker cable. Is there any TRS cables involved, and are any of the mixers outs or ins balanced? Are you by any chance sending a "stereo" aux out to a mono balanced line in on the K8 using a single TRS cable? Cable length is not your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 First off: You said line out of the other keyboard's mixer using a 30 ft speaker cable to the K8? Is that how it is set up? Secondly: How long is two long? Answer is, obviously, two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 28, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 Sorry writing late last night. Juggling lack of sleep from gigs. I'll explain. -I set up Stage Left. I send my keys into my mixer using dual TS cables (20ft as sometimes my rack is a bit far from where I am performing. -I use two balanced TRS cables from the mixer to the Iso transformer... the mixer is balanced 'outs'. -I send the signal from the ISO transformer to the other submixer using a homemade snake that consists of: 2-30' XLR with balanced TRS connectors as the 'send' & 1-30' CBI 14-Gauge speaker cable as the return to the QSC. (I have a Hosa Little Bro snake I could use for the same application but I'm using it elsewhere). The idea is that I get to the gig, open my rack, connect my keys, and send the snake to my partner. He has my Aux volume pegged. The mix I am sending him is pretty pegged and the individual channel volumes are pretty high. My keys are always at half volume in case I have a patch that need a boost or needs to be taken down in the mix. He monitors our combined mix as well and can hear me fine on his end. I hear our monitors keys at a much lower volume. The QSC is cranked and I can barely hear the monitor mix at chest level (I have the speaker on a keyboard stand). If I plug directly into the same speaker from the aux out on my line mixer the volume is 3x fold. Somewhere in the chain I'm having this issue. Aside from replacing the mixer I've tried swapping everything else. Which led me to wonder 'if' cable length was possibly an issue. I'm not using a traditional DI in the chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted November 28, 2011 Members Share Posted November 28, 2011 As has been said, that speaker cable is the wrong type of interconnect. You want to run a balanced, shielded cable from that aux out to the powered speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted November 29, 2011 Members Share Posted November 29, 2011 As has been said, that speaker cable is the wrong type of interconnect. You want to run a balanced, shielded cable from that aux out to the powered speaker. Hey Grant - Gig Man here... The point is well made here, your problem isn't the distance it's the cabling: you can not feed your QSC K8 w/a "speaker" cable - - believe it or not, you need to use a mic. cable! (which is shielded and balanced) - or at least, a balanced cable of some sort - maybe a TRS on one end (coming out of the other kybd. player's mixer's aux send) and then an XLR male on the other, going into the K8's XLR female input. I have a pair of the QSC K10's as well as the K12's - always use mic. cables w/them or TRS/XLR cables & they sound great. Used to use the JBL EON15 G2's - set up in bsmt. now for my son to drum along to... also used mic. cables or TRS/XLR w/the EONs. I thought you used to have a pair of those big SAMSON powered sprks. for monitoring on stage w/your band - didn't you use mic. cables for them - or balanced TRS-XLR Male Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted November 29, 2011 Members Share Posted November 29, 2011 ...also, Grant - you might want to consider trying the QSC K10 instead of the K8 - I love it (the 10)... I think the K8 is just too small for a band that big... I know that QSC claims the same "1000w" power rating across the board for the K8, K10 & K12 but still - a dinky little 8" speaker? - - could that also be part of the problem? What spkr/amp does the other kybd. player monitor with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted November 29, 2011 Author Members Share Posted November 29, 2011 ...also, Grant - you might want to consider trying the QSC K10 instead of the K8 - I love it (the 10)... I think the K8 is just too small for a band that big... I know that QSC claims the same "1000w" power rating across the board for the K8, K10 & K12 but still - a dinky little 8" speaker? - - could that also be part of the problem? What spkr/amp does the other kybd. player monitor with? K8's are fine IF you have them off the floor. I have mine either pole mounted or on a keys stand. Other keys player is using a Traynor K4. It's not a 'volume' issue per say... after all I'm able to plug from my mixer's aux out and hear perfectly fine. I can't monitor the other keys player at that point however. I'll change the cabling to an XLR and see if that makes the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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