china 58's - whoah

[gruven65]

 

Sometimes it's part of the desired sound, and sometimes it's not.

 

 

I can accept these answers, but not comments like "Rule #1 for a vocalist is to eat the mic". I prefer to be a few inches off the mic and be able to move in for softer parts.

[Bobby1Note]

 

I can accept these answers, but not comments like "Rule #1 for a vocalist is to eat the mic". I prefer to be a few inches off the mic and be able to move in for softer parts.

 

 

I do much the same, with my acoustic-guitar solo/duo/trio stuff. One example; I sometimes use a single mic, to cover my vocals,,, as well as the guitar. I'm usually seated on a stool for this application, with the guitar on one knee, and the mic is just above the upper-bout of the guitar-body, near the 12-14th frets. My mouth is probably 6-8" away from the mic.

 

As I'm playing and singing, I'll lean into, or away from the mic for vocals, and, I'll also rotate the guitar into, or away from the mic. The actual movements, are barely perceptible to the audience, but very effective. FWIW, I'm usually playing finger-style, on a nylon-string classical guitar for this application.

 

Different applications, different techniques.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I can accept these answers, but not comments like "Rule #1 for a vocalist is to eat the mic". I prefer to be a few inches off the mic and be able to move in for softer parts.

 

I'd suggest taking the total of my post into consideration, not just one sentence. Either way, the soundman's job is providing a usable mix to the audience. This is eminently easier if the vocalist is consistently up on the mic, than if he is several inches away. With the former I can adjust EQ if there's a gross problem with proximity effect, and at least I'm getting consistent and maximum GBF on that channel. With the latter it's very likely I'm going to have problems with feedback, especially if the amateur mic technique is added to amateur band backline abuse with ridiculously high stage levels. It's also much more difficult to fatten up a thin mic signal due to a shy vocalist staying off the mic.

[Bobby1Note]

 

I'd suggest taking the total of my post into consideration, not just one sentence. Either way, the soundman's job is providing a usable mix to the audience. This is eminently easier if the vocalist is consistently up on the mic, than if he is several inches away. With the former I can adjust EQ if there's a gross problem with proximity effect, and at least I'm getting consistent and maximum GBF on that channel. With the latter it's very likely I'm going to have problems with feedback, especially if the amateur mic technique is added to amateur band backline abuse with ridiculously high stage levels. It's also much more difficult to fatten up a thin mic signal due to a shy vocalist staying off the mic.

 

 

Excellent points.

[Bryan316]

Question for you gentlemen.

 

 

Last fall I got to see one of my favorite bands again, Vanden Plas, and their singer Andy Kuntz infuriated me. He's a brilliant singer, a fantastic voice, and a hell of a front man. But he was doing the whole "Rock star high note gotta pull the mic all the way away" thing.

 

Why?

 

For {censored}'s sake, WHY?

 

I couldn't hear anything he sang! His voice dropped off horribly every damn time! If he sang low, mic is right up there. Sings a high note, he has the mic at arm's length! Leaning back! Trying NOT to sing into the mic! Where we were seated (behind the sound board so I know I'm hearing what is SUPPOSED to be heard) I couldn't hear a damn thing he sang. I even went up to the front row at the side, to see if I could hear the monitors mix. Nope, in-ears, and nothing in the front monitors. So I heard nothing he sang, the whole show.

 

Why, people? Why?

 

I've seen Bruce Dickinson do this, I've seen Geoff Tate do this, Lance King, James Labrie, Michael Eriksen, Roy Khan, Stu Block, and dozens of great singers do this over the years.

 

Why?

 

 

Is it because they're afraid they won't hit that high note accurately and don't want the audience to hear a bad note?

 

Is it because they think their voice is THAT powerful they don't wanna blow out the mic?

 

Is it because they like that rock star pose?

 

Is it because they can't hit those notes from all the whiskey back stage???

 

Whatever the reason is, I can't {censored}ing stand it. Because it ruins their performance. I just wish these guys would be able to hear what they sound like out front. Because with their voice in their head competing with their voice out their mouthes then with their voice in their monitors or in-ears, I don't think they can tell just how poorly their vocals drop out every time they do that {censored}.

 

 

Guess what, folks. there's something that you can use. It's called a compressor. Rely on it, and it makes everything work so nicely, AND the audience can hear your voice the whole time.

 

I can imagine pulling back maybe the distance of your fist. That's it. That's enough. Any worse, and I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

 

 

 

 

If I'm being a total dick here, just say so. But I cannot be the only person out there who gets frustrated by this, and thinks it sounds terrible. ESPECIALLY coming from world-class vocalists.

[agedhorse]

Ok, you are being a dick here...

The reason for pul;ling the mic away is because most folk's ears are more sensitive to the higher notes, and frankly a little goes a long way. It's part of the presentation style and DONE RIGHT is very helpful in allowing the vocalist to find their spot in the mix (assuming their wedge or IEM mix is set up for this).

Regarding using a compressor, that's really NOT a good way to accomplish this. Why you might ask? Because of the sensitivity to higher frequencies, the signal level could easily be under the threashold of the compressor for the high parts that appear too loud but way over the threshold of the lower notes that require more power to APPEAR as loud.

This could be mitigated in part by using a multiband compressor or a sidechain loop that high passes the key signal, but frankly even these tricks don't always work so well.

[Dogoth]

I cannot be the only person out there who gets frustrated by this, and thinks it sounds terrible. ESPECIALLY coming from world-class vocalists.

 

 

Not to burst your bubble but that's just bad mic technique. Andy is spot on in that distance is an excellent volume control for a singer (it's their own volume pedal :-). It must however be used propperly or it doesn't work. That said, Possibly the aformentioned singer isn't quite "world class" (not saying they don't have some great attributes BUT live mic technique probably isn't one of them).

 

To add to Andy's post about the ear being more sensative to high frequencies - Most singers DO have to push harder to hit higher notes resulting in simply more volume (another reason to pull the mic away). Possibly the wedge (one that you couldn't hear - or was he using I.E.M.s?) was eq'd such that HE was hearing those high notes and thought the mic technique employed was just right. Having a good balanced monitor system goes a long way in making players perform better (both tonaly & dynamicly). Just a thought.

[Dogoth]

Does the LF cut back work for the "I'm cool so I'm going to cup it like a rapper" user?

 

 

NO! It can possibly help but cupping the mic changes all kinds of things about the way a mic picks up sound. Mics use rear venting as an integral part of making it directional and modifying it's tonal quality. When you block those vents you make what WAS possibly a good mic into a P.O.S.

 

Someone made a post recently about some inexpensive chinese mic saying "It's probably just another mic that uses the Panasonic condenser capsule" (they weren't necessarily ditzing the mic - just making a statment). This may well be true BUT the capsule is only a very small part in what makes a mic sound good or not.

 

Blocking the rear vents changes the mic dramaticly and rarely can be fixed by EQ.

 

another .02

[soul-x]

 

Someone made a post recently about some inexpensive chinese mic saying "It's probably just another mic that uses the Panasonic condenser capsule" (they weren't necessarily ditzing the mic - just making a statment). This may well be true BUT the capsule is only a very small part in what makes a mic sound good or not by EQ.

 

 

That was me. To clarify myself statement a bit, the discussion was about omni mic, so the housing wasn't really playing a major role in the sound (or shouldn't have been).

 

(And for the record, it wasn't a Chinese mic, it was a cheap handmade one)

[nchangin]

Ok, you are being a dick here... The reason for pul;ling the mic away is because most folk's ears are more sensitive to the higher notes, and frankly a little goes a long way. It's part of the presentation style and DONE RIGHT is very helpful in allowing the vocalist to find their spot in the mix (assuming their wedge or IEM mix is set up for this). Regarding using a compressor, that's really NOT a good way to accomplish this. Why you might ask? Because of the sensitivity to higher frequencies, the signal level could easily be under the threashold of the compressor for the high parts that appear too loud but way over the threshold of the lower notes that require more power to APPEAR as loud. This could be mitigated in part by using a multiband compressor or a sidechain loop that high passes the key signal, but frankly even these tricks don't always work so well.

If a compressor is not the solution what is?

[Gorquin]

I'm the same way. I never "eat the mic". I don't scream or sing really soft and I'm not usually the one that can't be heard. I DO like to work the mic because it allows me to controll the dymanics of a tune and the freedom to move. I also never have a loud stage volume so feedback isn't usually an issue. I like to "listen" to what everyone, including myself, is singing. Working the mic helps me to blend in with the other singers because not everyone sings each note or phrase with the same intensity.

The only times I've had to eat the mic is when the band was either too loud and/or the monitor sys couldn't cut it. And those are the times when I have to strain my voice to be heard.

My vote is to work the mic.

[Pro Sound Guy]

Guess what, folks. there's something that you can use. It's called a compressor.

 

Reply :For certain applications yes

 

 

If I'm being a total dick here, just say so.

 

 

[agedhorse]

 

Guess what, folks. there's something that you can use. It's called a compressor. Reply :For certain applications yes If I'm being a total dick here, just say so. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7zfnbdyAW8

 

 

Read my reply 31

[Pro Sound Guy]

Read my reply 31

I did...just reinforcement

[agedhorse]

I did...just reinforcement

I missed your reference to the other post.

[Bryan316]

Ok, you are being a dick here...

 

 

*swells with pride*

 

Of course it takes more oomph to hit those higher notes. I sing and know quite well. I do most of the low harmonies for my band. So I'm on the mic with my upper lip and stay steady on it. When I have to hit the high notes, I'm about 6" off the mic.

 

But to pull the mic away as far as your arm can reach? Something is not right.

 

But I wish I could show you a video clip or something, from the audience's point of view. It was aggravating.

 

Yes, IEM's can be your friend or your enemy. When mine are dialed in, love it. When something's off, frustrating. That's the only thing I can blame it on, cuz the wedges in front didn't have any audio at all. It was dead quiet up front. (the stage is conveniently shaped that there's two little nooks that photographers can camp out, and you're right in the firing line of those front monitors) Nothing but guitars up front.

 

 

Don't cup the mic, people. Howard Jones from Killswitch Engage does it all the time, and he sounds horrendous live. Listen to their albums, he sounds great. Listen to the live album, sounds like kaka on fire.

[agedhorse]

*swells with pride* Of course it takes more oomph to hit those higher notes. I sing and know quite well. I do most of the low harmonies for my band. So I'm on the mic with my upper lip and stay steady on it. When I have to hit the high notes, I'm about 6" off the mic.

 

 

So you go from say 1" to 6", that's about a 14dB change in gain due to distance. If you went to 16", that would be ~24dB (voltage)difference. Just more "compression". It's all about what's appropriate and what's not. It's a tool like any other, some folks don't know how to use it.

 

I worked with a big band singer that had a set of pipes on her that she could pretty much carry the room without PA but of course didn't to save her voice. When she did get big, getting the mic out of her way was necessary and I could use 24dB of gain reduction. This is more the exception to the rule of course.