ABLETON LIVE 5 (DAW software)

[Marco Raaphorst]

yes, a wordprocessor should be a wordprocessor and not become something like a spreadsheet program.

again, why is Reason not ReBirth 4?

to make users happy, don't change the workflow all the time. focus on main features and only add small extra features. for Live 5 a lot has changed, not all is good imo, but a great new feature is adding mp3, ogg and flac support. but still, it's just a bunch of codecs, not a totally different experience when you operate the program.

[PHAT-B]

Craig,
Thanks for the info on selecting "ram" in an audio clip. I had the same problem and couldn't figure out why it was super crackly yet no apparent CPU issues. My question here is, what is the other way, other than putting all of your samples/loops on your hard drive (as you mentioned)? My hard drive is 7200 and gets bogged down. Is there a solution? Only use those samples/loops that are needed on one drive (I have multiple drives)?

The other part of this is the fact that I purchased an m-audio trigger finger which is great with live. The thing is, I don't know if the $249 (or $279 - do you get all of the extra sounds with the $249 downloadable only version?) is worth it. It seems that it is b/c of the added audio and midi channels - if you get all of the added sounds/tutorials.

Finally, would it be better to purchase a multiple pedal midi foot controller or something like the Tech21 MM1 midi mouse for exclusive use with live? Seems like everyone has these huge pedal controllers but most hardware loopers are a simple two-three button operation?

Thanks for the great review,

PHAT-B

[Mighty Coogna!]

Originally posted by sunsinger Hi Craig... I've been learning Live 5 since I got it about 3 weeks ago. I'm new to the program, and I have been hacking my way through it without the manual or tutorials, which is the way I learn best. I'm running into some stumbling blocks though, about saving clips or loops. There does'nt seem to be any clear menu command regarding this. It would make it much simpler if there were a save command both for audio and midi clips, and if it would point a dialoug box to ask where you want to save it. As it is, Live appears to want to save everything in the Application Support file under Ableton Clips. Saving clips was a little bit of a boggle and there is no clear reference to it in the manual. Its a bit cryptic. Anyway I love live as a speedy composition tool. The post by Mighty Coonga where he asks about a more extensive drum instrument. I can recommend FXpansions "GURU". I use it in Pro Tools and it opens in Live as well, and gives you 8 drum engines with 16 voices in each for 128 voice polyphony, not that you'd ever need that much. It has tons of tweekability and on board FX. GURU also opens as a separate app. within live. So you can create patterns, then resample and loop them as audio clips. Its a speedy process. And fun... Yes... Ok, it adds about $150.00 to the cost of Live, and it sounds like the Mighty Coonga is extremely fiscally consious, but its a great combo if you find Impulse too limiting. Sunsinger

 

 

Impulse isn't bad for quickly sketching out a drum track, an I do have Reason 2.5, I could conceivably develop a nice drum set using one of those samplers, or the REdrum. The main thing is having the midi notes locked down and not alterable (there is probably some work around). In the end though it would be cool to have a integrated multi sample drum sampler built in.

 

 

On saving clips, I'm not sure how 5 handles it, but 4 requires you to render a triggered clips or scene, or a section of an arrangement. Really need a "save clip", and "save all clips in scene" kinda thing. It gets tricky working with long recordings, and wanting to save a few bars out here and there, productivity goes downhill from key & mouse fatigue.

 

Almost forgot... I think when comparing upgrade pricing you can't just compare dollar amounts and conclude that $100=$100, you need to also consider the percentage of the retail pricing. Looking at it that way $200 is just 20%, where $150 is 30%. I still think they should give loyal customers a break on upgrades. And to be fair they did offer a upgrade/Operator bundle for a short time.

[radiospace]

Originally posted by Anderton Point is, if I want a balls-to-the-wall DAW, I have Sonar.

 

 

Great review, so far.

 

At the outset you posed the question of whether or not Live was ready to replace our other 'hosts' (like Sonar). Also the new box, which advertises Live as a "Complete Music Solution", suggests that Live is trying to be, well, a complete music solution, i.e., compete directly with Sonar, Logic or Cubase, not just as a supplemental live tool.

 

From some of your later remarks (including the quoted, above), it seems that you still feel that Live is a bit of a specialty product, rather than a mainstream DAW. Do you think this is a case? Hopefully you can examine this question in more detail as the review continues.

[rnbeatz]

I think the way Live handles midi program change on external hardware synths could be improved. Live presently has an elegant way to change presets for their internal synths and au/vst plugins using the browser window. Why not handle program change for hardware synths the same way for consistency? It would also be nice to create one track that could handle midi from Live to a hardware synth and audio from the hardware synth to Live. Logic does this with what they call an external object. It works nice and keeps your screen uncluttered.

The external object could appear in the browser just like impulse or simpler and handle program change in the same way. Another nice feature would be adding the ability to input program names for the external synths by reading a text file.

[tecknot]

Hi Craig.

Thank you for the excellent info. You must be the busiest guy in the recording biz.


I just want to ask you, since you have already made a number of comparisons between Live v5 and that of high-end DAWs, how does it compare to Cakewalk's Project 5v2? I would think this is a more equal comparison. Do you have any thoughts in this respect? I apologize if you have already made mention of the two.

Again, thanks for all the work you do for us. I look forward to your reviews every month.

Take care,


Michael

[rdh3t]

Originally posted by PHAT-B Thanks for the info on selecting "ram" in an audio clip. I had the same problem and couldn't figure out why it was super crackly yet no apparent CPU issues. My question here is, what is the other way, other than putting all of your samples/loops on your hard drive (as you mentioned)? My hard drive is 7200 and gets bogged down. Is there a solution? Only use those samples/loops that are needed on one drive (I have multiple drives)? Finally, would it be better to purchase a multiple pedal midi foot controller or something like the Tech21 MM1 midi mouse for exclusive use with live? Seems like everyone has these huge pedal controllers but most hardware loopers are a simple two-three button operation? PHAT-B

 

 

You should have Live installed on your C drive with your other applications, and should ideally stream audio from the fastest drive you can get in terms of RPM, cache size, and means of data transfer pci being the fastest, then firewire, then usb if you have no choice. Using seperate drives for apps and audio files makes a BIG difference, especially on laptops where internal drives are 4,800-5,400 RPM, and most external FW drives are 7,200. It makes a significant difference in terms of track counts both for recording a bunch of tracks at once, and for playback. For instance, I can only record 7-8 tracks of 24/48 audio at once into Live with 128 sample latency on my RME multiface and my 4,800 internal drive. By just switching to the external 7,200, I get 16+ tracks at the same settings! Also, your soundcard, OS, system tweaks,and RAM effect your track counts.

 

EDIT: You can also "save set as self-contained" in the "file" menu in Live. What this does is put all of the samples in the SAME folder on you harddrive (this folder is set in the prefs. menu, and if possible should be a seperate harddrive from the one you apps. like Live are on). With all of the clips in one folder in one spot on the harddrive, the disk can access these files without bouncing all around the physical drive, or worse, bouncing around between multiple drives. If you have the disk space, save your sets as self-contained if you are still having audio hiccup problems.

 

I use the "huge" FCB 1010 for my midi foot controller while doing live looping with Live 3 (see my post for why 4 and 5 aren't good at live looping). Comparing looping with Live and using a hardware pedal (Line 6, Rc-20, boomerang, echoplex...) isn't even a contest, and the paradigm is totally different. Hardware loopers (with the exception of the $1000 echoplex) only have one or two mono tracks, and layers are simply overdubs directly on top of the previous recording. Live allows full midi control of most anything, and for loopers it allows us to record loops to seperate tracks for individual pan, volume, crossfading, effects, etc... So most loopers using Live have 3-7 tracks dedicated to looping instruments, and 3-7 buttons on their midi foot pedal corresponding to these tracks. Then you need a delete patch and workaround (see my earlier post), and other patches for arming tracks, navigating scenes, or whatever you want. Simply put, you want as much control and flexibility at your feet at once for live looping with Live, one or two buttons won't cut it. If you're not looping but just triggering scenes, figure out how few buttons you need and get the appropriate controller. For $150, its hard to beat the 1010, big or not. Mine's been great over 3 years of giggin with multiple bands.

 

Ryan

[Anderton]

My question here is, what is the other way, other than putting all of your samples/loops on your hard drive (as you mentioned)? My hard drive is 7200 and gets bogged down. Is there a solution? Only use those samples/loops that are needed on one drive (I have multiple drives)?

 

 

If I understand your question correctly, you can put the loops pretty much anywhere. When you click on the RAM option, it loads the loop into RAM, and from that point on, there's no need to access it from the hard drive any more.

 

I might add that if you have half a GB or more of RAM, you can stuff a lot of loops into RAM. A lot of short loops are only 1 or 2 MB. For most of my work with Live, I put ALL my loops into RAM except for really long samples that stream from disk. Even when I was using it on a G3 Powerbook running OS 9, no hiccups.

 

And if I didn't understand your question correctly, Ryan sure hit the target! Great advice.

[Anderton]

From some of your later remarks (including the quoted, above), it seems that you still feel that Live is a bit of a specialty product, rather than a mainstream DAW. Do you think this is a case? Hopefully you can examine this question in more detail as the review continues.

 

 

Might as well address that now. The bottom line about how well-suited Live is as a DAW depends totally on what kind of music you make.

 

There is no question that Live started out as a niche program. However, as it has evolved, it has become better suited to more mainstream applications. If I walked into a studio, was asked to record a rock band, and all they had was Live, I wouldn't have any problem. So, why did I reference Sonar?

 

It's because of the work I do. Here are some Sonar features that are crucial to me, but not covered by Live.

 

* Video window. I often need to do an arrangement against existing video (when I'm creating a video, I use Vegas).

* Surround. I hardly ever do surround projects, but have done a couple.

* Loop recording. Live can do it, but the way Sonar (or Cubase, for that matter) creates separate "lanes" is more convenient than stringing everything into one long sample (the same approach used by Acid, FYI). Also, Sonar's "mute" tool is great for making quick work of choosing the right takes.

* Metering. I like to know exactly how many dB a track went over or under. "Hot" masters are a fact of life, but I don't like to overcompress. So it's important to me to see if any tracks are contributing major peaks that I can reduce, in order to get a higher average level. (Incidentally, Sonar 5 flags "overs" and peaks so you know exactly where the signal levels are "bunching up.")

* Acidization editing. I use Sonar as a tool for developing Acid-compatible libraries. For acidized loop creation, it's the only option (along with Acid, of course). And, the ability to customize marker positions can sometimes yield better sonic results with "beats" than Live's beats mode.

* The Prosoniq MPX time-stretching algorithm. It's exceptionally good for offline, destructive stretching...it sounds great.

* Pow-R dithering. I often need this to bring a 24-bit file down to 16 bits.

* Track folders. Actually I find this more essential with Acid than with Sonar, but it's still very handy to be able to put lots of sounds on their own tracks, then stuff them into a folder when you want to reduce screen clutter.

* Multiple controller support. Sonar has plug-ins for several controllers I use. What is particularly helpful is GNX4 compatibility, so I can do hands-free recording...this saves hours when developing a sample library. This isn't just "play-stop-record," there's a degree of intelligence built-in with respect to creating new tracks, undoing, etc.

* Multiple view options. On really complex projects, Sonar is very customizable for how you view the project, what tracks you show/hide, and so on.

* OMF import/export. It's a Pro Tools world, and this lets me bridge Sonar to PT (as well as to Digital Performer, the main Mac program I use).

 

These are the biggies for me. Guitar tab, and the guitar neck view (which I use as a "pseudo-MIDI guitar) are nice but not essential. I also find the tempo editing to be more fluid, and although Live can do multiple undo/redo, Sonar's undo history is helpful. But these aren't deal-breakers.

 

So you can see that's a fairly specialized list that doesn't apply to everyone by any means. I mean, how many people create Acid-compatible sample libraries and do audio-for-video? And if you're not heavy into loop recording, Live does just fine; it's just more awkward than, say, Sonar or Cubase.

 

BUT I would NEVER use Sonar live. Live has completely taken over that space for me. The unstoppable audio engine, the session view, the ability to record performances, the easy tying of parameters to shortcuts and general-purpose MIDI controllers, the simplicity of doing on-the-fly MIDI editing, etc. etc. all make Live one of my favorite programs. I also really like the clean interface (also essential when playing live to minimize pilot error); Live has a great workflow to access what it does (although to be fair, Sonar has a great workflow for its type of program).

 

It all boils down to use the right tool for the right job. Live can certainly fulfill the basics of what people want from a DAW, and it's possible to use Sonar live. But if you are into specialized DAW applications, I still feel you need a specialized DAW.

 

Does that help or just confuse things further?

[Anderton]

how does it compare to Cakewalk's Project 5v2? I would think this is a more equal comparison.

Yes, it is definitely a more equal comparison. I am still logging hours on P5 V2 and Live 5, so don't feel I'm an expert yet. However, just as Sonar broke the monopoly on acidization, P5 V2 broke the monopoly on the Session View way of working.

I think that because both programs do have many similarities, the workflow and "style" of the program will be a huge factor in which you think is better. I see P5 V2 as tending more toward the "Reason" way of thinking, and Live as tending more toward the "DAW" way of thinking. So that will filter some users right there.

P5 V2 comes with more instruments than Live (hence the Reason comparison); the Dimension synth is particularly good. But Live 5 is more agile in terms of handling audio (hence the DAW comparison).

I'm sorry I can't give a more definitive answer, but the programs are sufficiently similar -- and sufficiently different -- that your personal preferences will be the ultimate deciding factor. As I log more hours with both programs, I'll have a better idea which is better suited for my needs.

Then again, thanks to ReWire, I don't really have to make an either/or decision if I don't want to

[Anderton]

I'm really disappointed with some oversights in the transition form 3-4, and 4-5. Chief among these is that the removal of the "select on launch" option in the preferences menu since version 4.

 

 

In the "Misc" tab under preferences, there's a Select on Launch option.

 

Please click on Attachment to see the Preferences menu, and what the Info section says about "Select on Launch."

 

Is this what you're looking for?

[Anderton]

Before proceeding -- I just wanted to say thanks for the excellent opinions and insights. Your contributions are what makes the whole "Pro Review" concept work.

I also look forward to more comments from Ableton's Dave Hill once he gets over his jet lag

I just had to say thanks for making this happen. Back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[ortho]

Hi everyone. Been reading this excellent review very closely as I am about to drop the bomb and sell my E-Mu command station and Akai sampler to help finance an iMac G5 with Live 5. I've used Live 1 awhile back and I realllly dug it. I've been using the Live 5 demo and it is so much more fun to me than the tweakability of the E-mu and akai. Even the most basic loop/beat can be transformed into the most insane variations. Thank you Ableton.

Has anyone actually used these Faderfox controllers with Live?

http://www.faderfox.de/Faderfox-Homepage_english/faderfox-homepage_english.html

I'm really excited about getting some cool new controllers to use with Live.

Does Reason Rewire into Live well? I need a softsampler to replace the Akai and Reason is so easy to use.

[rdh3t]

Ortho,

check the ableton.com forums and search for faderfox--many satisfied users. Things may have changed, but I think you cannot buy them directly from the company in germany. Seems most US users either bought them in europe, or had european friends buy and ship. couldn't seem to find a definitive answer after searching their website for all of a minute just now.

Ryan

[therabbit]

A question about live sequencing.

When you tell Live5 to go to a different section of the song like the bridge does it go immediately or is there some lead in time?

On my electribe it will wait till the current pattern is finished (up to 4 measures) and on my Motif it will wait up to one measure and switch regardless of where you are in the pattern.

It would be nice if it was more like the Electribe and would wait for the current song section to finish.

[jamsire]

Hey there Craig - Jamsire ERNOIR here.

Live is great. I will say that the upgrade situation is - what it is. But I feel that if you make a program on MSExcel or use Quickbooks, you can see where you have made money against your expenses - per project. The whole "other" point about making music for fun - is making money. You are supposed to also find a way to make money!!!

When I was first going to college back in 1983, I complained that I was going to have to pay back student loans when I graduated 4 years later - at $110 a month!!! Then a boss I had once said - they expect you to WORK after you graduate! In ten years, $110 a month will mean nothing to you - and he was right.

$119 - adds up to the following:

1. 10 bad dates

2. Drugs and alchohol you really don't need

3. 12 bad movies (no popcorn)

4. No Starbucks for two weeks (for you "need to have coffee people")

5. One parking ticket (in NY) because you were too lazy to look at the sign.

6. Insanely high cell phone bill because you went to NAMM before the weekend.

7. More bad dates

8. Girlfriend/ boyfriend guilt presents

I could go on. Once I make the money back - I see the profit margin in the reprot - and I move on. With regards to features, GET THE DAMN DEMO FIRST!!! And always remember - Windows people - to use the "Restore Point" feature. You may just not like it after all.

I remain.

[rdh3t]

Originally posted by therabbit A question about live sequencing. When you tell Live5 to go to a different section of the song like the bridge does it go immediately or is there some lead in time? On my electribe it will wait till the current pattern is finished (up to 4 measures) and on my Motif it will wait up to one measure and switch regardless of where you are in the pattern. It would be nice if it was more like the Electribe and would wait for the current song section to finish.

 

 

You can set this in Live with the global quantize. Most people use the "bar" setting--this means that when you press a new "scene" button in live (or trigger a clip), Live will wait until the next measure ("bar") to start the new scene/clip. You could also set it to 2, 4, 8 bars, 1/4 notes, none at all (immediate triggering), whatever. Clips even have their own quantize settings for trigger that you can set independantly from the global if you want. Very flexible and intuitive.

 

Ryan

[therabbit]

Originally posted by rdh3t You can set this in Live with the global quantize. Most people use the "bar" setting--this means that when you press a new "scene" button in live (or trigger a clip), Live will wait until the next measure ("bar") to start the new scene/clip. You could also set it to 2, 4, 8 bars, 1/4 notes, none at all (immediate triggering), whatever. Clips even have their own quantize settings for trigger that you can set independantly from the global if you want. Very flexible and intuitive. Ryan

Great! I can work with that!

I'm way overscheduled right now and I don't mind getting the demo and working through it, I just want to know that the program will do what I need.

Thanks for the help.

[rdh3t]

Originally posted by Anderton In the "Misc" tab under preferences, there's a Select on Launch option. Please click on Attachment to see the Preferences menu, and what the Info section says about "Select on Launch." Is this what you're looking for?

DAMN, I got excited there for a second. Sadly, this feature apparently only applies to launching via a mouse, and supposedly the "select on launch via midi" is still not working. I haven't tested it with the demo yet, but the most recent reply in this thread confirms the lack of of "select on launch" when launching with midi (which is crucial for people trying to loop on two-handed instruments...the mouse is worthless for looping live instruments):

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=170204#170204

Also see this thread about the feature making it back just to get cut again:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23799

And this one touting live looping (notice it doesn't reference a version, because he's probably using 3):

http://www.ableton.com/index.php?main=artists⊂=kid-beyond

Thanks for getting my hopes up This oversight not only hurts live loopers, but is totally counter-intuitive to the new midi control of the transport. This long-requested feature was implemented in such a way that you only have one set of hardware midi controls for the clip transport--these same midi knobs effect whichever clip is selected--they are global, not clip-specific. However, most performers launch clips via midi and key mappings, and thus their clips aren't "selected on launch". Thus, if you want to effect a clip with any of your midi transport assigned knobs, you have to first select the clip with the mouse--waste of time and energy on stage. Its sad that a seemingly simple feature, which is present and flawless in 3.0.2, gets removed in 4 and now 5, and totally ruins live as a looping device, and makes anyone gigging with 4 and 5 have to use the mouse much more often to select clips. What is the point of having key and midi mappable clip slots when they don't select the clip??? May as well remove this feature (just kidding!) and require the use of the mouse to trigger clips, becuase only it can select clips, which is what 99% of people want to happen when they trigger a clip. I hope Ableton can give us this option back. Whoever decided to take away an option that probably 80+% of version 3 users used was not thinking straight.

Ryan

[Marco Raaphorst]

mmm.

what if you buy a car. would you ask for more chairs AFTER you have bought it?

with software, people tend to believe they can ask for features, but why's is that.? because it's easier to change software maybe?

one thing that annoys me is software which is changing all the time, which is never finished. as a customer you will always feel it can be better etc. because of this. that's not good. it's not about the features, it's what you do with it.

I also see a shifting focus with Live. Live used to be a musician's program, but they are shifting to DAW. although they did it nicely, I can see certain issues which might become a problem when Ableton really thinks they should add video support too. I hope they consider a separate application for video. I mean, so people only use Live on stage, and who always felt it was meant for this. why should they need video. they would buy Cubase if they want that.

Please explain to me, why is there a Notepad program and why is their this program called Word?

[dave hill jr.]

Thanks for the kind introduction Craig. It is an honor to participate in your forum and this review of Live 5. I am again impressed with the helpful posts in just 24 hours or so! Great stuff going on here.

I’m going to try and keep the forum organized by posting several byte size replies. Hope this is clear and please let me know if I missed someone's remark or question with an email and I’ll reply (after a nap).

cheers,
Dave

[dave hill jr.]

Originally posted by sunsinger I'm running into some stumbling blocks though, about saving clips or loops. There does'nt seem to be any clear menu command regarding this. Sunsinger

 

 

Hi Sunsinger,

 

Sorry if this is at first unclear. Simply drag the clip to the browser (then rename), then press return / enter. Saving songs is done through the file menu and I recommend to always use Save As Self-Contained if hard drive space isn't an issue. By the way, while our manual is designed to be a reference guide, the best way to learn Live (for many) are the built in tutorials, complete with sound examples found inside Live’s lessons. To see Live’s lessons, go to the View menu and select Lessons. We’ve worked really hard to make learning Live as fun as possible (not that I don’t dive into new software sans manual too!).

 

Cheers,

Dave

[dave hill jr.]

Originally posted by rdh3t What is the point of having key and midi mappable clip slots when they don't select the clip??? May as well remove this feature (just kidding!) and require the use of the mouse to trigger clips, becuase only it can select clips, which is what 99% of people want to happen when they trigger a clip. I hope Ableton can give us this option back. Whoever decided to take away an option that probably 80+% of version 3 users used was not thinking straight. Ryan

 

 

Yo Ryan,

 

Select on Launch: I am sorry for your frustration on this feature appearing to disappear. Craig is right that you can still activate Select On Launch, but I understand it doesn’t work with outside MIDI controllers. This is a confirmed bug that will be fixed sometime in the future. However, you can have hope once again! I caught up with Kid Beyond today and he says that doesn’t need that feature to do his looping (and is loving Live 5 by the way). He turns his MIDI commands into keystrokes by using a free application called MIDI Translator http://www.bome.com/midi/translator/. I understand there is a similar application for the Mac called Control Aid but someone please jump in if you know better. Thanks also for posting this item in detail here and for the ableton forum links. We are indeed aware of the mighty loop / looper community and we do value your input greatly. We want Live to be the perfect tool for Live looping and thank you for bringing this again to our attention!

 

Cheers,

Dave

[dave hill jr.]

Originally posted by Marco Raaphorst mmm. what if you buy a car. would you ask for more chairs AFTER you have bought it?

 

 

Great point. Here are my thoughts on limitations in general. First of all, we need them. Limits create structure and for me add focus. One of the things I have found fascinating about working with Live is that by having less windows and views, I actually get more music done and spend more time listening (and mixing). That said, those of you in love with another DAW, please keep on loving it! I would never suggest anyone cancel out all those precious hours spent trying to learn another way of doing something you already know how to do. However, my boss would like me to suggest that you might still have a helluva lot of fun inside Live land. As Craig says, ReWire makes is easy for all of us to get along with whatever tool you like to work with. So give Live a try and see if music comes to thy ears . . .

 

all best,

drowsy dave

[dave hill jr.]

Good points made here by all. For a minute, please allow me to take off my Ableton hat and speak about my personal experience with Live. For me, it is all the DAW I need and a whole lot more. But all of us work differently and need different tools so let me quickly fill you in on where I’m coming from. I am a drummer who uses Live to sketch, produce, multi-track record, edit, and perform. I use Live like an MPC-style beat maker / phrase sampler/sequencer on the airplane, an HD editor/recorder in my living room, and performance instrument in “da club” or studio jam session. My two favorite features are that Live records all my automation moves without even thinking and can record perfectly cut loops quickly while I continually work on the mix. I also love the warp marker technology for massaging my drums where I, ahem, meant to play them. Speaking on Ableton’s behalf (placing Ableton hat back on head now), I would add that for many of our users, Live is a DAW and luckily a DAW that works great with other DAWs . . . but I am sure it is assuredly different things to different users. So please don't let me force my drummer ways on you! Oh wait, which hat did I have on there?

Cheers,
Dave