DigiTech Vocalist Live 4 (VL4)

[Rickeysound]

Just to follow up on the above thread, when our turn came up to play, I asked the soundman and he refused to let us use the VL4. Said there wasn't enough time between bands. Meanwhile, I stood around on stage 15 minutes while everyone else set up. I could have plugged in the VL4 in less than a minute. I remember someone else writing about this issue on this forum, and have worried about it before, but this is the first time it happened to me. The interesting thing was that everyone else stepped up on the backing vocals.

[whinersmusic]

 

Originally Posted by Rickeysound

Just to follow up on the above thread, when our turn came up to play, I asked the soundman and he refused to let us use the VL4. Said there wasn't enough time between bands. Meanwhile, I stood around on stage 15 minutes while everyone else set up. I could have plugged in the VL4 in less than a minute. I remember someone else writing about this issue on this forum, and have worried about it before, but this is the first time it happened to me. The interesting thing was that everyone else stepped up on the backing vocals.

 

Awful - isn't it great that the soundman could influence the show to such an extent. I mean the audience doesn't know what's coming and they were cheated, I think, based on this decision.

I mentioned before I worked professionally with some sound guys while acting as a stage manager. They worked for the house not the bands (were hired by the house that is) and clearly did not listen to the artist's wishes. I think what I took from that is a band/solo artist really needs to have a relationship with the sound person - almost as if they are the 5th Beatle. If you have your own person, they respect what the band is tryinig to deliver.

I think it behoves us to be able to connect our gear quickly and throw out the signal to the sound guy but, if we can do that, it should clearly be the signal we want. Even if it's distorted hell!

If I could afford it, I would bring my own guy, bump the house dude off the chair and get it done that way. I saw that happen once in a while and everytime a band brought their own person, they were far happier. The house guys hated it but maybe they could look and listen and learn from it too. I see no reason why the house people need to be quite as anal when cooperation helps bring more art to the process. But God forbid the artist articulate a need.

I am real sorry you couldn't bring it all to the performance but what a trip to see your mates have your back! That's something, as they say in the credit card commercial, that's "priceless" to have - you and your band against the world - that's also rock and roll!

[Rickeysound]

Yeah, he's known as a good soundman, and to his credit, he did make us sound good, but so many of our songs depend on those big boisterous choruses that the VL4 is so capable of assisting on. And he wouldn't even listen. I tried to explain it's plug and play, but he just said flatly: "No, there's not enough time."

We usually bring out our PA system, with our keyboard player serving as soundman. At first, I thought it would be a blessing to play with a house sound system and soundman - and it is nice not having to lug around, set up and break down a PA - but it's scary not knowing what you're going to get.

[Keithos28]

Rickeysound,

your thread got interesting because of the Scary part. I always go half-an-hour before everything is supposed to start on acoustic nights. Just to make sure all is set up and A-OK. I bring all my own cables [with exception of the MIC] which the sound man supplies. We test it and make sure the acoustics are fine and the harmonies are not over the top. The VL4 is on the floor and ready to go when my time comes around. I mention his name before going into the song , thanking him for his patience. He, 'the soundman' is also a very popular musician in the area, so there is much respect. Nothing is perfect, he the 'sound-man' struggles with performers that do not turn up their guitars, or forget to put in a fresh battery in the pick-up or maybe their cable is not working. I always say be prepared for the worse, and the best can happen. I have to say that the advice from many of you on this forum steered me in the right direction, thanks to all of you

Keith

[whinersmusic]

 

Originally Posted by Rickeysound

Yeah, he's known as a good soundman, and to his credit, he did make us sound good, but so many of our songs depend on those big boisterous choruses that the VL4 is so capable of assisting on. And he wouldn't even listen. I tried to explain it's plug and play, but he just said flatly: "No, there's not enough time."

We usually bring out our PA system, with our keyboard player serving as soundman. At first, I thought it would be a blessing to play with a house sound system and soundman - and it is nice not having to lug around, set up and break down a PA - but it's scary not knowing what you're going to get.

 

It's interesting to me, since we all have the same experiences of sorts on this. I want to add I'm not putting "sound guys" down per se just noting that some of the ones I've encountered seem to take my "non-pro" standing a little too seriously. They jump to a conclusion before even asking - it means to them we may not know what we are doing or what we want. I'm sure if they were writng this they'd say they've encountered numerous players who just don't know anything - even how to tune! So, it's a double edged sword. I've done sound for people - I know it's a tuff gig.

But, if any sound folk are reading this you might want to approach everyone with the sense that we do have an idea of what we want and a "how can I help you get it" attitude. It's a major difference.

If we want a subjective assessment of what we are doing, we might ask for it. But, as I said before, if our thing is to wail 20 minutes like Yoko Ono with full distortion, that's our thing. Adding a harmony from a machine should be no different than a wah pedal. Especially if we can get ready to do a check in a minute or so.

I think that needs to be thought about by sound people for a minute. If I come in with some exotic instrument that you've never seen, are you going to tell me I can't use it? I don't think so. If I drop down a BOSS multi EFX unit and have two guitars coming into it, are you going to tell me I can't use it? I don't think so. In many cases all of this gear is what gives you your sound. So, it's not right you can't deliver it as you want to.

Another thing that impacts in these situations is that they probably haven't heard you so they can't really tell what it is you are going to present. They see a thing like the VL and just get warning bells going off in their heads thinking of feedback and whatever. I get that ... but you have to work with the performer not against them to get what it is they want and allow it to happen. If they don't want reverb - don't force it on you. So much of this is subjective about sound and what sounds good.

Sorry to rattle on but clearly there is a bit of prejudging going on about something like a VL harmony unit. It's come up a few times on the thread. If it wasn't a voice thing (e.g. involving the mic) I suspect this wouldn't happen at all with the sound guys.

Dudes ... get used to it - I don't think these things are going away and now, with BOSS coming out with one, it's going to be a more regular thing.

[whinersmusic]

 

Originally Posted by Keithos28

Rickeysound,

your thread got interesting because of the Scary part. I always go half-an-hour before everything is supposed to start on acoustic nights. Just to make sure all is set up and A-OK. I bring all my own cables [with exception of the MIC] which the sound man supplies. We test it and make sure the acoustics are fine and the harmonies are not over the top. The VL4 is on the floor and ready to go when my time comes around. I mention his name before going into the song , thanking him for his patience. He, 'the soundman' is also a very popular musician in the area, so there is much respect. Nothing is perfect, he the 'sound-man' struggles with performers that do not turn up their guitars, or forget to put in a fresh battery in the pick-up or maybe their cable is not working. I always say be prepared for the worse, and the best can happen. I have to say that the advice from many of you on this forum steered me in the right direction, thanks to all of you

Keith

 

Indeed good thinking - we can get a lot with honey over the other thing. I think the more prepared you can be for any eventuality the better. I've provided working DIs, pics, cables and a host of other things in many situations that not only saved me and the sound person, it's helped other bands out. You can't go wrong by having your own set up ready and handy.

I also think it's not unreasonable for people to experience a bit of the wierd stage karma once in a while - it just comes up. Forgetting to turn up your level or whatever'll happen to anyone depending on what other stress is happening at the moment. That's where your own practice and basic being ready for it can't be underestimated. Sounds like you have got it down Keith.

[scredly]

On the soundman front...(I play too and have a VL-Pro):

These pedals are new technology and the sound folks need to become familiar with it. A sound person hears the vocalist wants to plug into a "pedal" and huge red flags go up...1/4" to XLR adapters, loss of control, feedback.

The sound person is usually the defacto stage manager. Their allegiance is to the house. To keep things on time and make sure the house system is not damaged and ensure consistency in the audio for the paying customers.

There are a lot of house guys that are jaded and unknowledgeable and down right ornery. But so are many performers. We deal with bands/performers of every ilk night after night. This is our job. Not a hobby. It does get difficult to stay positive when you're beat down by the same list of "issues" over and over again. The natural reaction is to eliminate variables on the know list of issues when they appear. "Vocals thru pedal" is on the list. That will change as these tools become more prevalent.

The sound person is on the very front line of where art meets commerce. Performers are there to perform their art. The club is providing whatever it provides to make money from said performance. The sound person is usually the middle-man come show time.

I can understand the knee-jerk reaction to nix anything that looks complex. The sound person will be blamed for ANYTHING that goes wrong with the audio. Even if it's the band's equipment issues, lateness, slowness. The performers do not get the concept that if they are late going on, their set time gets cut. At times, performers get caught up in themselves and forget about the paying audience and the compromises that must be made to perform live. No paying audience = you play in your basement. No door money. No merch sold. No invite to play at club again.

Be professional. Grow some mutual respect. Show up early. Talk to the sound person. Explain your set-up and requirements. A gratuity BEFORE your set can go along way to getting "extra" attention from the sound person. Or as suggested, especially for important gigs, hire your own sound person.

Performers think nothing of dropping tonnes of money on equipment, invest countless hours practicing but won't spend $100 on their own sound person to make sure their craft is translated to the audience correctly.

A recent post from the sound side of things:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/48378/0/

Don't want to hijack this thread. We can move this discussion to the live sound forum.

As Bill & Ted said "Be excellent to each other".

[HaloRecordings]

I'm sure we have all experience this and hopefully someone has a fix.

Those wonderful wall warts (power cords) that come with effect pedals like the Vl4 and HG. They're too short. I'm tired of running an extension cord with the wart lying on the floor.

How do you guys get around this? Has anyone made the wire longer? Does everyone but me use a pedal board?

I have 3-5 power cords, HG, Computer, Drum Machine, Mixer and Amp. Two of them have those short wall warts that I have to deal with. Because I sit on a stool, I usually put a power strip underneath my stool and plug my stuff into it, but the wires are running under my feet and the wall warts are too short to run in any other direction.

Is there a better way to plug everything in without haveing wires and wall warts all over the place?

David

[Rickeysound]

Interesting discussion and comments. I do understand where the sound guy's coming from, especially at an event like this one was with more than a dozen bands and only 15 minutes in between. But that doesn't make it any less scary when it happens!

Basically, I do think it's because they're not familiar with vocal effects floor processors compared to other pedals. But we've gone from two to several in the time this forum has been going, including several recent additions, so maybe they will become common enough that they're treated more like other pedals.

Actually, it might have been good for us as a band. We were all probably relying on the VL4 too much, so it gave us a chance to see what we could sound like without it.

[Failure Theory]

 

Originally Posted by HaloRecordings

I'm sure we have all experience this and hopefully someone has a fix.

Those wonderful wall warts (power cords) that come with effect pedals like the Vl4 and HG. They're too short. I'm tired of running an extension cord with the wart lying on the floor.

How do you guys get around this? Has anyone made the wire longer? Does everyone but me use a pedal board?

I have 3-5 power cords, HG, Computer, Drum Machine, Mixer and Amp. Two of them have those short wall warts that I have to deal with. Because I sit on a stool, I usually put a power strip underneath my stool and plug my stuff into it, but the wires are running under my feet and the wall warts are too short to run in any other direction.

Is there a better way to plug everything in without haveing wires and wall warts all over the place?

David

 

Maybe something here will work for ya:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/....php?t=1477822

http://www.musictoyz.com/guitar/gtrstuff/furmanpb.php

http://www.skbcases.com/music/produc...2&c=85&o=&s=75

And my personal favorite method is here:

http://www.pedalspluseffectswarehous...plies_s/65.htm

With these you can get rid of your wall warts all together. there are a couple of things you will have to look into. Voltage, AC vs DC (Many Digitech Products actually use 9V AC), polarity, and that the total amperage requirement of the sum of your pedals does not exceed the amperage rating of the unit. With those things correct the last thing you may have to do is create some custom wires with the end that goes into your pedal and with an end that plugs into the power supply. You may be able to find pre-made cables that do just this. Also I hjave seen some of these that have a section for AC and a section for DC as well as varying voltages. Let us know what you end up with!

[Rickeysound]

I use a pedal board, but I usually need an extension cord even for it.

But I do highly recommend the Furman SPB-8 pedal board for VL4 users. It's the only one I've found on which the front edge is more or less flush with the ground. Because of that, it's easy to engage the harmony pedal on and off with just the front of your foot (as opposed to having to pick up your entire foot each time to reach it).

Here's a link to it if anyone is interested:

http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/p...ard?sku=541961

Downside is also an upside depending on one's needs. It's pretty large, so it holds a lot of pedals, but if you're only using it for the VL4, it's too large.

[HaloRecordings]

 

Originally Posted by

With these you can get rid of your wall warts all together. there are a couple of things you will have to look into. Voltage, AC vs DC (Many Digitech Products actually use 9V [b

 

AC), polarity, and that the total amperage requirement of the sum of your pedals does not exceed the amperage rating of the unit. With those things correct the last thing you may have to do is create some custom wires with the end that goes into your pedal and with an end that plugs into the power supply. You may be able to find pre-made cables that do just this. Also I hjave seen some of these that have a section for AC and a section for DC as well as varying voltages. Let us know what you end up with!

 

Tyler and Rickeysound,

Thanks for the info. I've looked into several options based on your input. I found something called the One Spot for $35.00 that comes the close to my needs.

Unfortunately, two of the units I use (the HG and Alesis SR-16) are both 12v. They're incompatable.

I moved my power strip from underneath my stool and attached it to the stand that holds my PC. Now the wall warts for the HG, SR-16, PC and Mixer are in front of me with only the power strip cord in my way. It works.

Thanks again

I love this forum!

David

[MDLMUSIC]

 

Originally Posted by HaloRecordings

Is there a better way to plug everything in without haveing wires and wall warts all over the place?

David

 

Not sure if there is really any method to get away from having a bunch of wires on the floor, but I use a Power Squid instead of a power strip, which allows me to easily plug in a couple of wall warts and have them facing any directions I want them to.

[HaloRecordings]

 

Originally Posted by MDLMUSIC

Not sure if there is really any method to get away from having a bunch of wires on the floor, but I use a Power Squid instead of a power strip, which allows me to easily plug in a couple of wall warts and have them facing any directions I want them to.

 

Yes, I've seen them. That's something to think about.

Thanks

[kenact]

 

Originally Posted by HaloRecordings

Unfortunately, two of the units I use (the HG and Alesis SR-16) are both 12v.

 

David,

Are you sure about the SR-16? I'm looking at mine and it says it's 9v. My unit is from '95.

[HaloRecordings]

 

Originally Posted by kenact

David,

Are you sure about the SR-16? I'm looking at mine and it says it's 9v. My unit is from '95.

 

Mine is also from the mid 90's. Alesis's web site for the SR-16 states; 9 VAC External Transformer, UL and CSA Approved.

I'll look again to confirm, but I'm pretty sure that the transformier (wall wart) said 12v.

Thanks

[HaloRecordings]

 

Originally Posted by kenact

David,

Are you sure about the SR-16? I'm looking at mine and it says it's 9v. My unit is from '95.

 

You're right. On the back of the unit is states 9v. On the transformer (wall wart) the output is 10v.

[kenact]

 

Originally Posted by HaloRecordings

You're right.

 

I try to be

It doesn't always work, but I try.

Good luck.

[Rickeysound]

Okay, since the forum has been slow lately, I thought I'd add in my two cents on the TC Helicon Harmony G after "attempting" to use it at a rehearsal of my classic rock band.

Bottom line: Forget about it if you are in a band where you ...

1. Have to stand while playing;

2. Sing lead vocals;

3. Play guitar; and

4. Your band does songs in the 160 beats per minute range.

The latching, raised button makes it impossible to use. Digitech got it right on the VL4 with the non-latching pedal, although we've talked extensively on this forum about how even that pedal is hard to keep hitting correctly.

I suppose the Harmony G might work if one is sitting down and playing acoustic songs. But I counted in one song that the harmonies kick in (and then out) at 12 different places - requiring 24 foot movements in a song that only lasts two and a half minutes! LOL! Who's designing these things? Obviously, not live-playing rockers.

[Tom Lang]

Chiming in here (and possibly off topic) on Harmony-G. Agreed that sometimes you can miss the footswitches and it's something we can consider for future products. I've got to disagree with your assertion that Harmony-G is unusable live. I gig plenty (standing, with my Strat) in lots of bands and it rocks. I had it under my left foot (right foot is on my guitar pedalboard) and switched it on/off plenty. I say "had" because I'm on the VoiceLive 2 now. And yes, I had plenty to do with designing the product.

[Rickeysound]

 

Originally Posted by Tom Lang

Chiming in here (and possibly off topic) on Harmony-G. Agreed that sometimes you can miss the footswitches and it's something we can consider for future products. I've got to disagree with your assertion that Harmony-G is unusable live. I gig plenty (standing, with my Strat) in lots of bands and it rocks. I had it under my left foot (right foot is on my guitar pedalboard) and switched it on/off plenty. I say "had" because I'm on the VoiceLive 2 now. And yes, I had plenty to do with designing the product.

 

Tom - Thanks for chiming in! Much appreciated. Like I said, I think it depends a lot on the style of music. But if you can play with two feet on two different pedals, you're probably a really good player, which I'm not.

Do you also sing lead vocals? That's where my major problem lies with button-based vocal effects processors. Lead vocalists should be looking at the audience and it takes a lot of concentration. How many people are adept enough to sing straight ahead, play guitar, and constantly manipulate a small button that requires raising and planting of one's foot in a small space - especially on fast songs with lots of harmony parts? Too much to handle compared to the ease of just pressing and releasing the front of your foot as on the VL4 (I'm not affiliated with anyone - I'm just a consumer). But I've praised the sound quality of the Harmony G over the VL4 on this forum and wish I could take advantage of it's great sound (love that doubler!). So each product has its strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks again for commenting and I hope you'll continue to participate in this forum. I think "the regulars" would agree it's become a bit of a "vocal effects processor" forum and not just a VL4 forum. And all any of us want to see is the best possible vocal effects processor.

[whinersmusic]

 

Originally Posted by Rickeysound

Tom - Thanks for chiming in! Much appreciated. Like I said, I think it depends a lot on the style of music. But if you can play with two feet on two different pedals, you're probably a really good player, which I'm not.

Do you also sing lead vocals? That's where my major problem lies with button-based vocal effects processors. Lead vocalists should be looking at the audience and it takes a lot of concentration. How many people are adept enough to sing straight ahead, play guitar, and constantly manipulate a small button that requires raising and planting of one's foot in a small space - especially on fast songs with lots of harmony parts? Too much to handle compared to the ease of just pressing and releasing the front of your foot as on the VL4 (I'm not affiliated with anyone - I'm just a consumer). But I've praised the sound quality of the Harmony G over the VL4 on this forum and wish I could take advantage of it's great sound (love that doubler!). So each product has its strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks again for commenting and I hope you'll continue to participate in this forum. I think "the regulars" would agree it's become a bit of a "vocal effects processor" forum and not just a VL4 forum. And all any of us want to see is the best possible vocal effects processor.

 

Indeed anytime we can get one of the "authors" here it's a good thing.

I've integrated both the G and the VL to my box arrangement and run the harmony on through an expression pedal. I have a stereo pedal and put the G signal through one of the ins/outs and the VL already has the expression input. That way I can get this great stereo effect using both - it certainly sounds like two different voices with the subtle differences between the products. I would encourage Helicon to add an expression pedal since it seems to me the surest way to have harmony when you want it and not by surprise.

Those who trail back will know I improvised a pad for the VL expression pedal since it is full harmony on when in the toe down position. I've actually been able to drop that with the addition of the G. Since the G has a dry out I take that signal and flow it to the VL which keeps pure voice for its harmony. Becuase I have a split at the VL for dry I can adjust the clean vox to be higher in the mix. It may sound complicated but it works well enough.

Kind of like taking advantage of the best of the units and work arounds for what isn't quite right. The doubling effect on the G is what made me want to keep it in the live show - it just adds a lot to the vox.

Back to our "ideal" unit. I would add doubling to the list. If we could get the power to daisy chain with standard efx that would also be a great thing (as per the wall wort comments). Asking the impossible? Both Helicon and the VL people are up to it I'd say.

Maybe Tom ... you can provide some insight to how Helicon is responding to some of user suggestions? Be great to hear customer service is listening.

Cheers.

[Rickeysound]

If anyone is interested in trying to compare the sound of the Harmony G to the VL4, you can hear songs done with each on my website:

http://www.thetripsband.com

Not exactly an A/B comparison because they are different songs, but the first song on the website (No Matter What - Badfinger) was sung on the VL4 with a 3d up harmony.

The second and third songs (Shapes of Things - Yardbirds/Suffragette City - David Bowie) were sung on the Harmony G.

All the others on the site were also on the VL4.

These are VERY rough recordings on an M-Audio pocket recorder live in a garage. Only our second rehearsal in a year since our lead guitarist got back from Afghanistan.

One thing you can hear, I think, is the doubling effect of the Harmony G on Suffragette City.

[sudshto]

wonderful! thanks for the info..

[todd78]

Thanks for the great information

 

simple interest calculator calculation calculators formula loan calculating rate loans equation rates mortgage compound current high savings account homeSales tracking sales tracking software Sales lead tracking softwarefedex tracking track number ground