M-Audio Venom Synthesizer

[Psicraft]

 

Originally Posted by scud133

umm can we hear what it sounds like? its page 3 already!!

 

http://www.venomsynth.com/audio_gallery

That should tide you over until Craig cuts some demo tracks... Enjoy!

Tony

[dsc]

This is a great thread. Very informative by intelligent people. I should see my new venom show up in a few days.

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by dsc

This is a great thread. Very informative by intelligent people. I should see my new venom show up in a few days.

 

Don't by shy about posting your opinions/impressions...Pro Reviews are at their best when they're interactive. Having Tony contribute has been a big help, but I'm interested in reactions from any Venom users.

[mr.nice]

Hello everyone. I found this forum and thread when searching for information on the venom. Thank you Anderton!

I am a complete rookie when it comes to instruments/digital recording etc. I would appreciate any advice and answers to my questions that anyone cares to provide.

What I think I want: A fun instrument for myself any my four year old to play with. I personally enjoy tech immensely and would love to play with garageband while making interesting sounds and beats. My son already shows a strong interest in playing with the various tech in the house and music. My thinking is we get something that he can immediately make something happen on. If he develops a greater interest we can look at other options. Perhaps he will want to play piano etc..

I was originally looking at digital piano's and somehow have drifted towards synth's. I read somewhere (maybe here) that the reviewer was surprised that setting 1 was not digital piano or bass. Does the venom still offer the ability to produce piano like sounds? I do understand that the experience, key feel etc is not the same as a piano or digital piano. However for our purposes it would be a starter piece.

Is my understanding correct that out of the box we could produce interesting sounds and beats? The software seems interesting but I may not have the time to get too involved with that up front.

Here is where you see my complete lack of knowledge... Do synth's (venom in particular) allow you to download and load content? Sound effects for example might be fun to play with. Or do you have to create everything by making tweaks?

Connecting to computer/speaker setup: As I was looking at digital piano's and now synth's I began to look into studio monitors. I listen to music often in my office and have decided that I want to upgrade my speaker setup. Right now I am looking at the krk rokit 6 or the behringer truth. Opinions on these is welcome but right now I want to talk about connecting everything.

Here is my understanding. The venom has a built in audio interface. If I plug the venom into my imac via USB I will be creating an inbound connection as well as having the ability to send audio out to whatever speakers I have connected to the venom. What if the venom is off, will audio out of the mac still work?

I am considering a dedicated audio interface, is this necessary at all, advantages that I should be aware of?

That is a good start on my questions. Thanks everyone.

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by mr.nice

I am a complete rookie when it comes to instruments/digital recording etc. I would appreciate any advice and answers to my questions that anyone cares to provide.

 

Well, I don't want to get too distracted from the review, but will be glad to help out.

 

I was originally looking at digital piano's and somehow have drifted towards synth's. I read somewhere (maybe here) that the reviewer was surprised that setting 1 was not digital piano or bass. Does the venom still offer the ability to produce piano like sounds? I do understand that the experience, key feel etc is not the same as a piano or digital piano. However for our purposes it would be a starter piece.

 

Venom is a "synthesist's synthesizer." By that I mean it has capabilities that go far beyond gear like digital pianos, but it's not a sample-based keyboard with pianos, strings, horns, etc. It's definitely a synthesizer and is not designed to produce the sound of acoustic instruments.

 

Is my understanding correct that out of the box we could produce interesting sounds and beats? The software seems interesting but I may not have the time to get too involved with that up front.

 

There are some great sounds and beats out of the box, no question about that. To really get the most out of tweaking Venom, though, you need to use the software. I think that this keyboard might be a little too "techy" for you and your son (which is one of the reasons why I like it ).

 

Here is where you see my complete lack of knowledge... Do synth's (venom in particular) allow you to download and load content? Sound effects for example might be fun to play with. Or do you have to create everything by making tweaks?

 

Generally after a synth has been out for a while, people start developing and trading patches, but Venom is still quite new...I don't know of any online user groups and such that may exist for people to trade patches. Maybe Tony or Taiho can speak to that.

However, unlike sample-based keyboards, you can't load in new instrument sounds. For example, with a sampler you can often load a piano sample, but you can't do that with a synthesizer.

 

Connecting to computer/speaker setup: As I was looking at digital pianos and now synths I began to look into studio monitors. I listen to music often in my office and have decided that I want to upgrade my speaker setup. Right now I am looking at the krk rokit 6 or the behringer truth. Opinions on these is welcome but right now I want to talk about connecting everything.

 

KRK speakers have gotten excellent reviews and owners swear by them. I personally don't have them so can't comment.

 

Here is my understanding. The venom has a built in audio interface. If I plug the venom into my imac via USB I will be creating an inbound connection as well as having the ability to send audio out to whatever speakers I have connected to the venom. What if the venom is off, will audio out of the mac still work?

 

The Mac has a line output that you can select, and send to powered monitors. You would have to re-patch, however.

 

I am considering a dedicated audio interface, is this necessary at all, advantages that I should be aware of?

 

Venom's is basic, but does the job.

Now, let me make a recommendation. Venom is a more advanced type of instrument, which is why I find it so cool. You might be better off with something that's designed for more mainstream applications and has piano sounds, rhythm tracks, etc. included.

I've had a chance to play with the Casio WK7500, which is the type of unit known as an "arranger" keyboard. It has "styles" included that can provide a backing track while you play over it on the keyboard. It can also record vocals, guitars, etc., and is the same price as the Venom. It does require some effort to learn it fully, as it has a lot of capabilities for a keyboard of this type. It does not have a built-in interface, but it does have built-in speakers so you don't need a separate system if you take it into your son's bedroom or whatever.

Now, comparing the Casio to the Venom is sort of like comparing an SUV to a sports car - they're that different. But based on what you're saying, it seems like you might want a product that "holds your hand" a little more, and can make more developed sounds out of the box without having to have a knowledge of synthesis.

I hope this helps!

[Taiho Yamada]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

Generally after a synth has been out for a while, people start developing and trading patches, but Venom is still quite new...I don't know of any online user groups and such that may exist for people to trade patches. Maybe Tony or Taiho can speak to that.

 

There's an online community for patch trading that's just starting up at venomsynth.com. It's also a great source for news on Venom and Vyzex. I'm going to try and become more active there in the coming months as I think it would be fun to trade sounds illustrating the more esoteric things that Venom can do. And I like to hear the latest patches that Venom owners are creating... some of them are quite surprising!

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by Taiho Yamada

And I like to hear the latest patches that Venom owners are creating... some of them are quite surprising!

 

I think you put your finger on something here...one of the reason I'm digging Venom so much is because I can come up with sounds that surprise myself. You don't have to go down the "Let's make a Minimoog bass" path unless you want to (and FYI Taiho...I came up with a pretty good Minimoog bass anyway...I wanted to see if it was possible to make "traditional" synth sounds as well as some of the more esoteric ones).

[Koniferus]

 

 

 

 

 

However, unlike sample-based keyboards, you can't load in new instrument sounds. For example, with a sampler you can often load a piano sample, but you can't do that with a synthesizer.

 

 

 

 

I was under the assumption that the venom wasn't a true synth and was sample based with filters to distort the sound. Also, how well does the Venom perform simply as a midi controller for VSTs in a DAW?

This thread is 100% gold btw. 3 pages without one single troll is unheard of!

EDIT: I meant how does it perform as a midi controller through USB. Does it function similar to the Axiom, where I can plug USB into my laptop and control VSTs?

[Taiho Yamada]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

One other thing: It would take a lot of button-pushing and knob twisting to achieve the same degree of programmability as the editor. I'm not sure it would be a pleasant experience...given the price, and the fact that the price of physical controls really adds up, I'm pretty sure the designers figured it made more sense to hit a price point and include an editor than include enough controls to make programming something other than an exercise in frustration. But, that's just speculation.

 

You're right, Craig. We definitely wanted to hit a certain price point. And you're also right that a significant part of why the Performance Control section represents a reduced parameter set was so that we could avoid a cluttered user interface when interacting with Venom in a live situation - or otherwise.

The idea is that the parameters for setting up something like a Modulation Route should not get in the way when you're just trying to sweep the Filter. So, the top panel focuses on the parameters that are the most fun for performance, and the most useful for quick edits when you're tailoring a sound to fit your song, and that's it. When you want to sit down and create sounds from scratch, the Vyzex editor will take you as deep as you want to go.

Looking back on my days with the Alesis Andromeda, we definitely had a different philosophy about the user interface. We brought as many knobs to the top panel as was physically possible, and we still had to bury a good deal of functionality in screens and menus. Advanced synthesists loved the Andromeda, but many people found it hard to get around, and that was a big realization for me - that more knobs wasn't always better.

So, with Venom I wanted to try a UI that was more contextualized. Venom and Vyzex essentially keep things out of your way until you need them. The underlying synth engine provides the power that advanced users require in order to create interesting sounds, but the top panel still presents a non-intimidating set of controls for the beginner. This provides a high degree of instant gratification for anyone who steps up to the instrument for the first time.

[Taiho Yamada]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

However, LFO 3 is available only as a modulation source, not a destination.

 

Hi Craig,

As you found out later, the modulation matrix source and destination lists are contextual, so LFO 3 was probably hidden because an illegal source was selected. If you have a monophonic source, such as the Mod Wheel, you actually can select LFO 3 Rate as a destination.

Cheers,

[Taiho Yamada]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

• Positive velocity
• Negative velocity
• Positive keytrack
• Negative keytrack
• Positive mod wheel
• Negative mod wheel
• Pitch bend wheel
• Positive channel aftertouch
• Negative channel aftertouch
• Positive expression pedal
• Negative expression pedal
• Positive sustain
• Negative sustain

The modulation section is pretty easy to understand, although I don’t know why some negative and positive versions of the same parameter are grouped together (e.g., velocity) and some aren’t (e.g., keytrack). No big deal, but it does seem odd.

 

It is a little odd! Sorry about that. There are definitely some items out of order in the list here. The problem was that we started sound design before we realized that we wanted these new sources included, so we were stuck. It would have trashed a bunch of sounds to change the order of the mod sources on the list, and we knew we didn't have time to go back and fix them, so we had to leave them.

Also, I blew it on naming the "negative" sources. They're not actually negative in polarity, but rather multiplicative sources. They seem sort of subtractive because as you increase the modulation amount, the "negative" sources appear to subtract from the target parameter value, but they're actually scaling it according to the source level. For example, if you route "- Mod Wheel" to Amplitude in the INIT patch, you'll notice that the higher you set the amount, the quieter the sound will be until you move the Mod Wheel all the way up and it returns to the original volume.

If you want to do a true negative modulation, just route a normal mod source to your destination with a negative modulation amount. The normal mod sources are additive/subtractive when applied to the target parameter value.

Happy modulating,

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by Taiho Yamada

It is a little odd! Sorry about that. There are definitely some items out of order in the list here. The problem was that we started sound design before we realized that we wanted these new sources included, so we were stuck. It would have trashed a bunch of sounds to change the order of the mod sources on the list, and we knew we didn't have time to go back and fix them, so we had to leave them.

 

One of the things I love about pro reviews where the designer gets involved is these kinds of insights into how products come together, and the kind of "bumps in the road" you have to deal with along the way. I also found your comments about Andromeda very enlightening...it also gives some background as to why Venom is the way it is. And yes, I think it was a smart design decision to make the Venom front panel its "greatest hits" and leave the more esoteric stuff to the computer.

Actually, a lot of the design decisions are why I like the keyboard.

[Psicraft]

 

Originally Posted by Taiho Yamada

 

It is a little odd! Sorry about that. There are definitely some items out of order in the list here. The problem was that we started sound design before we realized that we wanted these new sources included, so we were stuck. It would have trashed a bunch of sounds to change the order of the mod sources on the list, and we knew we didn't have time to go back and fix them, so we had to leave them.

 

The Quest editor architecture powering Vyzex Venom makes it possible for designers to reorganize static list entries without changing the original value sequence of the options. Taiho and I did actually discuss changing the apparent order of the Mod Destinations during development to iron out this apparent wrinkle in the design.

Unfortunately, these same controls (Mod Destination) are also completely dynamic: They already track the state of the mod matrix and constantly alter what they display, based on the current mod routings. Adding a layer of cosmetic mapping on top of this complicated system was not possible given the circumstances at the time.

What display ordering would you prefer for maximum intuitive use? Let me know and I can always put it in as a wish list for future updates...

Tony

[Anderton]

Let’s take a look at the Aux page. There are two aux effects; as shown in the following screen shot, Aux FX 1 has three reverb options and ten different echo types.

The next screen shows the available delay controls.

Depth is more like a mix control that determines the wet/dry balance. Pre HP inserts a highpass filter before the effect – useful if you don’t want something like a kick drum to muddy up the delays. Pre Delay adds a delay before the programmed delay effect kicks in, but this particular delay can’t be tempo-synched so you need to adjust the timing manual.

High Damp takes out highs, much like the way tape does with successive repeats, while Feedback determines the number of echoes. This is all fairly standard. Tempo Sync is enabled; this offers note values from 1/32nd to a whole note, along with triplet values for 1/16, 1/8, and 1/4 note and dotted values for 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2 notes. As far as I’m concerned dotted values are crucial for dance music, so I’m glad they’re included.

Aux FX 2 offers Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, and Delay effects. It also has a send control to Aux FX 1, so you can “serialize” the effects if you want. The following screen shot shows the controls for the Chorus and Flanger effects.

Controls for the Chorus, Flanger, and Delay are the same as for FX1, with a few exceptions:

• No sync to tempo for the delay time or LFO rate
• LFO modulation works for delay as well as chorus and flanger, which lets you use the delay as another type of chorus
• In addition to the Pre HP filter, there’s a Pre LP option to insert a lowpass filter in front of the effect.

The Phaser has a limited control set – Depth, Pre LP, Pre HP, Feedback, LFO Rate, and LFO Depth.

And that's it for the Aux effects. Next we'll cover the "notepad," and then the Arpeggiator.

[Anderton]

Single and Multi patches include a notepad where you can enter the patch name and other information - refer to the following screen shot.

I don't think there are any search options that tie in to these entries (e.g., you couldn't search for all patches that include a particular Song name) but maybe I just haven't found it. Tony?

The notepad area is also where you can save, load, and collect patches. Not to get too ahead of ourselves here, but it's worth touching on the saving process with respect to the architecture.

There are four basic ways to save Venom sounds:

• Single patches
• Multi patches (includes the single patches in the multi
• Bundles (for singles or multis). These include the single or multi sound, along with any patterns being referenced. Patterns include note and controller data, phrases, arpeggiator settings, and rhythm patterns for drum sounds. The combination of a single patch and pattern is called a Part.
• Set (includes factory banks, users banks, patterns, global settings, and edit buffers - basically a snapshot of Venom's contents)

So there's not much more to discuss here, it's all pretty straightforward...but it gets interesting again when we enter "arpeggiator-land."

[Psicraft]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

I don't think there are any search options that tie in to these entries (e.g., you couldn't search for all patches that include a particular Song name) but maybe I just haven't found it. Tony?

 

Search functions for the file Metadata (all the File note entries in the current editor design) are coming in the retail version of the editor - These will search not only local files, but also files that have been posted to the VyZone online database.

So the short answer is, No... Vyzex doesn't provide for this. At this stage we wanted to at least give users the ability to at least categorize and notate their sound data for when search functions are made available in more advanced editor products later.

Tony

[Anderton]

Thanks for the info, Tony! Definitely appreciate your being on top of this thread.

Next, for all you Venomists out there, I've attached my first "from scratch" single patch. It's a ZIP file because VBulletin doesn't recognize the Venom suffix, so just unzip it and load. I've also included an audio example.

Now, let me emphasize - this is NOT a showcase patch designed to make you go "Wow! That synth sounds friggin' amazing!!" Rather, I did this because I needed a “normal” bass patch, and wanted to see if Venom could do normal sounds...and it can. However, I will admit that I tied hard sync from oscillator 3 to the mod wheel

[Gunner Recall]

Glad I found this thread...I noticed the venom while I was in my study the other day

(a bathroom stocked with the latest musicians friend/sweetwater catelogs)

Looking forward to hearing more about this one.

[dsc]

Just received mine a couple of days ago and I am very impressed.

I might have found another bug. (Not sure though)

While in 'Single' mode on Patch 'Venomous' if you have the arp turned off and hold down a key and then turn on the arp and let go of your key, you get a continuous note that will not quit unless you switch into multi mode or turn it off.

I noticed this with all patches.

Keep up the great post

[Anderton]

Sounds like it might be some variation on the MIDI "stuck note" thing, which happens when a note gets a note-on but never gets a companion note-off to turn it off. If the continuous note is the note you were holding down prior to turning on the arpeggiator, the arp might "disconnect" your key, leaving the note-on floating out there.

But this is speculation...I'll head over to the "Venom part of the studio" later and check it out. Right now I'm knee-deep in checking out WaveLab 7's many (and I do mean MANY!) analysis functions in the WaveLab 7 pro review.

[dsc]

Yes, you described the situation exactly. Is this normal?

[Gunner Recall]

It's hard finding information about this thing.

Every conversation seems to devolve into a "lulz noob! go buy a real analog synth!"

with very little discussion from people who have used/purchased the venom

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by dsc

Yes, you described the situation exactly. Is this normal?

 

There are lots of ways to get stuck notes, probably the most common is having a finger still on a key when you change presets. Another is not so common any more, but way back when (remember, MIDI is over a quarter-century old!) computers had a hard time keeping up with a complex data stream, like if you were doing pitch bend and aftertouch...they'd just lose a note. I doubt that's what's happening with you, I mention it for the sake of historical accuracy

There's a reason why so many MIDI sequencers have a "panic" button that sends a note-off to all keys. That said, I still haven't had a chance to try your specific scenario, but I will soon.

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by Gunner Recall

It's hard finding information about this thing.

Every conversation seems to devolve into a "lulz noob! go buy a real analog synth!"

with very little discussion from people who have used/purchased the venom

 

Well, that's why we're here

Let me give you some background on where I'm coming from, as that might give some perspective on my opinions (there's a bio on www.craiganderton.com, but let's just talk synths).

My primary instrument is guitar, but shortly after learning to play guitar, I started playing keyboards and have been doubling on the two ever since. So, part of me approaches synths from a "guitar player mentality."

Most guitarists I know have more than one guitar, and more than one type of guitar (acoustic, electric, 12-string, etc.). Even though a guitar is just "six monophonic oscillators on a plank of wood," within that context there's still a huge variety of sounds. A Strat doesn't sound like a Les Paul, but they can both sound wonderful.

I see synths as musical instruments, not pieces of technology, and judge them on that basis. For example, a synth with 256 voices is impressive technically, but not if they voices sound sterile. The Venom would seem at a real disadvantage with only 12 voices, but you can do a lot with each voice (hey, I only have six voices on my guitar, and I do okay).

Now let's consider analog vs. digital. I was raised on analog synths, I even have a vintage Minimoog that Bob Moog himself signed when he stayed over at my house once (true story). I love analog synths, although they have limitations - no one synth has it all, like no one guitar has it all. But I also love digital synths. I can actually program FM synths, and I think Cakewalk's Rapture synthesizer is brilliant - I came up with so many sounds for it they were released as expansion packs by Cakewalk. But, these have very different characters. Rapture is all about extreme modulation and step sequencing possibilities, more so than any other synth I've seen. FM synths (my current fave is the Native Instruments' FM8) offers entirely different types of tonalities you can't get with analog. I thought the Alesis Ion was an extremely clever synthesizer in terms of bridging the analog/digital gap, and Korg's M3 has a beautifully smooth, liquid sound despite being a digital workstation - it doesn't sound "analog," but it sounds like "smooth digital." Or take Yamaha's Motif synths - they're ROM-based, but you can make some really nice articulations. And so on...

So, I have a right to be jaded about synths I wrote manuals for the Oberheim OB-8, Akai S-900, Peavey DPM-3 (the most underrated synth of all time IMHO), several E-Mu samplers, etc. I live and breath the damn things.

For something to really make me sit up and take notice, it has to be something different. This is why I'm excited about the Venom. I don't want an analog synth; I have my Minimoog. I don't want a step sequencing monster; I have Rapture. I don't want a ROMpler - got plenty of those. I want a live performance musical instrument, and the Venom does that extremely well.

I also admit to have a bent toward the bent. I play with Dr. Walker over in Germany, and he's not really happy with a sound unless he's destroyed it in one way or another And to me, that's what Venom is all about. You can really twist things around, do weird modulations, overdrive the filter, that sort of thing. It is a distinctive instrument with a distinctive personality, and it unashamedly travels the "electronica" path...so much so that I created that bass patch above just to see if it was possible to make normal sounds. Well, it is...but why bother, because you can do sounds with the Venom that are unique.

So, you don't see a lot of discussion for several reasons. It's still relatively new as synths go - it was only introduced two months ago. And to really understand it, you have to have it and play with it...two minutes on the floor of your local GC just isn't going to give you the whole story. What's more, you have to wrap your head around its personality. Anyone who would say "Just buy an analog synth" would probably tell you to buy a lawnmower if you asked what kind of aquarium is best. Venom is not an analog synth, or pretends to be one. Yes, it borrows aspects of analog technology, but that's not the point. The point is that they're combined with other elements that have nothing to do with analog to produce something with a unique identity. And THAT is why I like it.

Stay tuned to the review, because this is a deep synth and I'm still learning about what it can do. I understand what it can do - there's not much in here I haven't seen before in one piece of gear or another - but it's how you combine these elements that makes things interesting. Yes, there will be audio examples Next up is the Multi aspect, and there's a lot going on there.

Venom isn't for everyone, and it's not about "this one monster synth will replace all your keyboards!" It has a character and if you like that character, you're in. To give a rough analogy, some guys like demure, pretty, quiet girls with blond hair, nice dresses, and can make the most fabulous dinner on the planet. Others like girls with dark hair, lots of lipstick, ripped stockings, tattoos in strategic places, and the ability to go clubbing until noon the next day. If you like the latter, say hi to Venom.

I wonder if the people at M-Audio are horrified, laughing, confused, or saying "YES! He gets it!!" right now...

[Gunner Recall]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

Others like girls with dark hair, lots of lipstick, ripped stockings, tattoos in strategic places, and the ability to go clubbing until noon the next day. If you like the latter, say hi to Venom.

 

Sold.

Seriously though, thanks for the detailed response.

I'm a fuzz/bitcrushed loving guitarist looking to expand my sound with keyboards/synths.

Anything that gets down dirty with over-the-top filthy sounds is my kinda synth.