Frustrations: Keyboard Amps!!!!

[wheresgrant3]

Ok. We have gone round and round on this topic many times... the right amp for the right purpose. Again after another purchase I am finding myself extremely frustrated.

 

First let me clarify, I am only using this amp for monitoring NOT amplification. Again I set up my keys in the following way: Synths-stereo into Yamaha Mixer... Main mix-Stereo out to the PA... Monitor Mix- stereo out to the amp using channel 1 & 2 (low impedence). We don't run any keys into the band's monitor mixes. The system is simple and has worked great. I only need the amp to hear myself clearly and my band mates to hear the samples I trigger as cues.

 

In August, I purchased a Samson db500a powered speaker. It was a great buy at $400 barely used. I had rented one for several months so I knew the ins and outs. Shortly afterward, I picked up a used Peavey KB100 for the practice room to save me from shuttling the big boy back and forth. for the $550 I spend, the pair seemed to be the perfect combination.... or so I thought. Although I love using the Samson, it's size, weight and overall girth has made it prohibative to use at smaller clubs. In fact.... after owning it for several gigs I've come to the conclusion that it's size, weight and girth has made it prohibative in general.

 

 

So I figured I would try out the Peavey for a couple of gigs. It has certainly held up at practice and It's smaller and more compact than the Samson. So two weeks ago I brought it to a show and it seemed to work fine. I leaned it upright at a 45 degree angle against the wall so the speaker was facing me and I could hear it clearly. So could my band mates. So I opted to try the same plan this weekend and unfortunately it was a disaster.

 

On Friday night, at the beginning of the third set, I noticed that my Triton seemed to sound noticable distorted, gainy and seemed to sustain a little as if I was playing through external reverb. Of course I panic while playing... my XP30 seems to sound OK. Now my Triton has a much "hotter" output than any of my synths. Even with the bass eq'd low, at times it seems as if it could distort a little. I thought maybe something was wrong with the Triton, which would suck since my entire 3rd set depended on it. In between parts and songs I checked my mixer,, checked my wires, I leaned down to check the amp to see if the reverb had been "on". I even went through the "Triton" global settings and turned off all internal and external effects. Nothing worked. Inside I was frantic, wondering if the same distorted notes were being heard thru the PA... on the outside I kept it together and played through everything, is if nothing was wrong. During our encore, it seemed as if the entire single to my amp had been sucked out. Everytime I hit I hit a bass note on the EP patch on my Triton, the strings patch I was playing on the XP30 would drown out in inaudible disortion.

 

My fears were confirmed when my singer came up to me shortly after the gig and said my keys sounded horrible the last couple of songs. Later I asked my girlfriend how things sounded and she replied "Great... didn't seem like anything was wrong at all".

 

Thinking it was either my Triton or my Mixer, I tested both Saturday afternoon. Nothing. I couldn't find any noize, buzzing or distortion on any of the channels I plugged into. Unfortunately I did not test the amp. At the gig last night, the same disaster. Again.... from the first song in I knew something was wrong... that my my sound was colored. It was so bad on one song I just completely dropped out.

 

About an hour ago I just got around to unpacking my car, plugged in the amp... again through the mixer... tons of noise... plugged directly into the Triton tons of noise as well. It's not the speaker either.... it's the preamp... with headphones on there is tons of noise as well. So now I am back to square one.

 

What I need:

Sound: I need a solid amp that is clean and clear.

Shape: I need a speaker that will face my ears NOT my ankles.

Cheap too.... Under $400

Some power... I need to hear myself... 40-60 watt amps I have used do not cut it. I'm looking between 100-150 watts. We're a very loud band... our entire backline is loud. We're f**king loud and people love it. Well some old people don't.

 

What I don't need

I really don't need the best tone for EP patches... My ears are the only ones hearing it... and I'm playing Bon Jovi and Kid Rock, not Duke Ellington. It doesn't need any internal effects. I don't need to be stereo, however more than one channel would be nice. I'd like it to face upward from the floor, or be at ear level. (Honestly, what is the purpose of an amp that is at ankle level and is square shaped.)It needs to have decent bass response as some of the Triton patches I use could shake downtown San Fran. It needs to be under $400. Anything else?.... oh yeah! It needs to love me.

 

 

Thanks for listening to me vent! I know some of you will start spilling on the virtures of $800-1000 Mackie, JBL or Italian imported active speakers... I can assure you, the bars and gigs I play at, it would be a complete waste. Plus I have plenty of PA... it does all of the work for me. I personally don't care what I sound like behind the PA "line", I just care that I can myself while I am playing.

[The Pro]

Double you budget and get a Motion Sound KP-200s. You got at least a couple grand tied up in keys so $400 for the amp won't cut it... it'll just prolong your frustration. You'll also want some kind of amp stand - QuikLok makes some good ones.

[eric]

Hey man!

 

I use a pair of Motion Sound KT80s for stereo monitoring. Total of 200 watts combined and 28 lbs each. I paid about $750 for the pair new and it is the most flexible and portable rig I've owned. The volume is great. I don't use them for my only sound source as I run XLRs to the PA, but they work fine for stage monitors and even compete with 2 loud guitarists.

 

If I have the space, I generally place one on each side of me. I have customized my KT80s so that they can tilt back monitor style and I can hear them perfectly.

 

I attached some plates with threads and then screw in carriage bolts that support it leaning back at the perfect angle. The carriage bolts have velcro wrapped around them and attach to the back of the amp while in transit, so it is nothing extra to worry about. So I tilt both of these amps on either side of me, or I put one to the right and one just behind me. I find that when I run mono with just one amp, I crank it up to about 3:00, but in stereo, 12:00 is fine.

 

I've thought about the KP200S to reduce my rig to just one stereo amp (I'm a stickler for that stereo sound), but the benefits of the two KT80s include:

 

1) I can just use one amp if the stage is too small

2) I have a compact stereo rig that fits most anywhere

3) If one amp fails, I always have the back-up right there with me

4) Lower volume is needed in stereo due to the spread. Better on my ears and it sounds fantastic!

 

You may want to consider two smaller amps if stereo is important. I have also thought about getting one or two Mackie SRM450s, the alleged holy grail for keyboard monitors.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Regards,

Eric

[GigMan]

Hey Grantster -

 

I'm cornfused? not uncommon...

 

You say you need enough power to hear yourself, but it doesn't need to be crystal clear, or suPerB - like the JBL EON15 G2 that I use and evangelize - or the KPS Motion Sound KP-200S that The Pro swears by + pimps out every chance he gets ...yet you have that Samson that you got at a good deal, which you say is pretty powerful - so what de dilio?

 

Is the Samson just TOO BIG for the rooms you're playing? Yet the little crappy PV is too small? And you need something in between but don't want to shell out more than 400 clams for it? I think you've just stumbled onto a gaping hole in the market, my man.

 

BTW -

I don't know what that Samson o' yours weighs, but my JBL EON15 G2's are only 46 lbs. each. - that's including the biamped system of 400 watts (300w to the woofer and 100w to the horn).

 

I say shell out the money and be done with it - whether you go for a JBL EON15 G2, Mackie SRM450, Motion Sound KP-200S or whatever. From what I read in your posts, you spend a lot of time, energy and focus on your music and take it quite seriously - regardless of the fact that you play in a party band - you need to have the right tools to do the best job you can do, dude.

 

My advice - either stick w/the Samson if it's loud enough or sell it and get a high-end, powerful amp that will do the job right for you.

 

[GigMan]

Originally posted by eric Hey man! I use a pair of Motion Sound KT80s for stereo monitoring. Total of 200 watts combined and 28 lbs each. I paid about $750 for the pair new and it is the most flexible and portable rig I've owned. The volume is great. I don't use them for my only sound source as I run XLRs to the PA, but they work fine for stage monitors and even compete with 2 loud guitarists. If I have the space, I generally place one on each side of me. I have customized my KT80s so that they can tilt back monitor style and I can hear them perfectly. I attached some plates with threads and then screw in carriage bolts that support it leaning back at the perfect angle. The carriage bolts have velcro wrapped around them and attach to the back of the amp while in transit, so it is nothing extra to worry about. So I tilt both of these amps on either side of me, or I put one to the right and one just behind me. I find that when I run mono with just one amp, I crank it up to about 3:00, but in stereo, 12:00 is fine. I've thought about the KP200S to reduce my rig to just one stereo amp (I'm a stickler for that stereo sound), but the benefits of the two KT80s include: 1) I can just use one amp if the stage is too small 2) I have a compact stereo rig that fits most anywhere 3) If one amp fails, I always have the back-up right there with me 4) Lower volume is needed in stereo due to the spread. Better on my ears and it sounds fantastic! You may want to consider two smaller amps if stereo is important. I have also thought about getting one or two Mackie SRM450s, the alleged holy grail for keyboard monitors. Hope that helps! Regards, Eric

 

Hey Eric -

That does sound like a nice setup.

 

I don't know who told you the Mackie SRM-450 is the alleged Holy Grail for keyboard monitors (??) but I did play through them once - one of those outdoor "town day" concert deals, where a sound company was there w/all their stuff - a bank of SRM 450's were flanking the whole front lip of the stage for us (a wedding/party band) to hear vocals, keys, guitar, bass, drums, everything was through them. And they did sound pretty damn good!

 

One thing about the SRM450's though: only one input on those suckers, which is really inconvenient.

 

[GigMan]

Originally posted by GigMan BTW - I don't know what that Samson o' yours weighs...

 

Whoah, now I do (just looked it up at samsontech.com) - 61 lbs.

 

Dang, that is a beefy boy, ain't it?!

 

I sure as hell wouldn't want to be draggin' that thing around w/me either!

[GigMan]

Originally posted by eric I've thought about the KP200S to reduce my rig to just one stereo amp (I'm a stickler for that stereo sound), but the benefits of the two KT80s include: 1) I can just use one amp if the stage is too small 2) I have a compact stereo rig that fits most anywhere 3) If one amp fails, I always have the back-up right there with me 4) Lower volume is needed in stereo due to the spread. Better on my ears and it sounds fantastic!

 

I think you're right, Eric - stick w/the 2 amp-setup.

 

According to the Motion Sound web site (motion-sound.com), the KP-200S weighs 55lbs. + the KT80 weighs only 28 lbs, as you said. So the total weight (comparing the KP-200S to a pair of KT80's) is almost exactly the same. But having 2 of the smaller amps gives you the flexibility to have a nice small little rig when you need it - by leaving one of the amps home, that is.

 

[GigMan]

Originally posted by The Pro Double you budget and get a Motion Sound KP-200s. You got at least a couple grand tied up in keys so $400 for the amp won't cut it... it'll just prolong your frustration. You'll also want some kind of amp stand - QuikLok makes some good ones.

 

When I need to mount one (or both) of my JBL EON15 G2's up high, I stick 'em on the Ultimate Support Speaker TS90 speaker stands (w/the "Tele Lock") - they are THE BEST stands I've ever seen. So easy to use, no pins to lock in or anything.

 

Before the JBL's I had a pair of Cerwin Vega cabs - no stand mount holes on the bottom of them, so I used to just put them up on banquet tray stands - easily obtained with light fingers at any of your local banquet or catering halls/wedding factory joints where wedding receptions are held + shady musicians like me are to be found...

 

The Cerwins had 4 little rubber feet that raised the bottom of the cabinet up off the flr. a bit - I would set them up on the banquet tray stands so that the front feet would hang over the one rail of the tray stand a little, for support + the back feet would be just in front of the back rail also for support. Hey - it worked for about the last 12 or 13 years, until I finally invested in the JBL's.

 

[wheresgrant3]

Originally posted by GigMan Whoah, now I do (just looked it up at samsontech.com) - 61 lbs. Dang, that is a beefy boy, ain't it?! I sure as hell wouldn't want to be draggin' that thing around w/me either!

 

 

Actually... it's not even the weight that's prohibative it's the size and power. When I setup with 4 synths on two stands (2-tier X and an Aphex) there is literally no room to put the beast on the floor. It's not like you can lay it on it's side and set the stands on top of it. It stands as tall as a 4 year old. Also power is an issue. PA is 2000 watts, lighting rig another 1000-1500 (depending on the setup) individual amps along the backline run another 600-700 watts. Throwing another 500 watts on the floor just so I can hear all the "colors" is a bit excessive. If I could narrow that down to 100-200 watts I would feel comfortable using it in every room we play.

[wheresgrant3]

 

Originally posted by eric Hey man! I use a pair of Motion Sound KT80s for stereo monitoring. Total of 200 watts combined and 28 lbs each. I paid about $750 for the pair new and it is the most flexible and portable rig I've owned. The volume is great. I don't use them for my only sound source as I run XLRs to the PA, but they work fine for stage monitors and even compete with 2 loud guitarists. If I have the space, I generally place one on each side of me. I have customized my KT80s so that they can tilt back monitor style and I can hear them perfectly. I attached some plates with threads and then screw in carriage bolts that support it leaning back at the perfect angle. The carriage bolts have velcro wrapped around them and attach to the back of the amp while in transit, so it is nothing extra to worry about. So I tilt both of these amps on either side of me, or I put one to the right and one just behind me. I find that when I run mono with just one amp, I crank it up to about 3:00, but in stereo, 12:00 is fine. I've thought about the KP200S to reduce my rig to just one stereo amp (I'm a stickler for that stereo sound), but the benefits of the two KT80s include: 1) I can just use one amp if the stage is too small 2) I have a compact stereo rig that fits most anywhere 3) If one amp fails, I always have the back-up right there with me 4) Lower volume is needed in stereo due to the spread. Better on my ears and it sounds fantastic! You may want to consider two smaller amps if stereo is important. I have also thought about getting one or two Mackie SRM450s, the alleged holy grail for keyboard monitors. Hope that helps! Regards, Eric

 

 

Eric... your probably closest to being in the same situation as me... and you have to also compete with a horn section. A single KT80 might do... I'm also looking at the Yorkville 100w wedge amp... new they run about $350. I don't need stereo at all I just hope the 100 watts is loud enough.

[wheresgrant3]

 

Originally posted by Jazz+ All the "keyboard amps" are crap. I use a pair of 500 watt EV Sxa360 powered speakers. They cost me $879 each and weigh 36 pounds each.

 

 

I'm proud... together they add up to more than I spent on my primary keys setup. I assume that it's your primary amplification. I've already got that covered. So unless I hit the lotto, $900 for one just isn't justified.

[wheresgrant3]

Originally posted by GigMan Hey Grantster - I'm cornfused? not uncommon... Is the Samson just TOO BIG for the rooms you're playing? Yet the little crappy PV is too small? And you need something in between but don't want to shell out more than 400 clams for it? I think you've just stumbled onto a gaping hole in the market, my man. My advice - either stick w/the Samson if it's loud enough or sell it and get a high-end, powerful amp that will do the job right for you.

 

I think the Peavey is probably ok for the job... I just happened to come across one with a crummy preamp section. Now I know why it was being sold for $150 without a mark or blemish (although I said for 3 months it seemed to work fine). Although, maybe someone spilled a drink on it. It's weird to go from completely fine to malfunctioning during the course of a gig. It isn't worth the money to repair it. the KB100A plenty big on it's own and it needs some sort of stand to angle it 45 degrees. I'm willing to sell the Samson and the Peavey off for $400 together and get something worthwhile.

[niacin]

you might consider just running an in-ear monitor out of your mixer. Try the Shure 3es. Then just add some keys to the foldback. I'm not sure I'd do it but I know someone who has. So you have your 61lb monster for when the space is available, and just the phones for when things are tight. One less box to lug.

 

P

[kikedeolivos]

 

Originally posted by eric ...I attached some plates with threads and then screw in carriage bolts that support it leaning back at the perfect angle. The carriage bolts have velcro wrapped around them and attach to the back of the amp while in transit, so it is nothing extra to worry about... , Eric

 

 

Would you post some photos?

[eric]

Photos? Sure thing. Here is a more detailed description and some photos. I wrote this up on another forum awhile back, so I'm just reposting it here:

 

Here

[wheresgrant3]

Eric,

 

That is almost as cool as that DIY rolling keyboard stand you made.

[GigMan]

Originally posted by eric You attach the plates to either side of the back of the amp with included screws as indicated in my photos below. I drilled pilot holes first. I have chosen the optimum location. No concerns with the wood being thick enough - it is perfect to hold the screws. After attaching the plates, you screw the bolts into them, tilt the amp and you are all set.

 

eric -

Very ingenious indeed!

 

But aren't you concerned that when drilling into your $567 dollar amps -

 

http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-MOI%20KT80.html

 

...that you might compromise the integrity of the sound of the cabinet?

 

I'm guessing that it still sounds good, so it didn't seem to hurt it any - kudos to you! You have more cojones than I would...

 

 

[ChipCurtis]

I used to depend on clubs' PA systems and used a monitor for about a year, before I got fed up and decided to take control of my own sound, rather than others being in control of it, by buying my own PA system back in 1996. The occasional outdoor gig or venue with no PA made this a necessary purchase in the long run. I got a Peavey PV4C 500W stereo amp with two Celestion 250W speakers. The sound? Incredible - all I need, totally self-contained, no reliance on other systems, band's gear, house gear, etc. Hasn't let me down in 8 years of gigging, serves as my home monitoring system as well. Of course there are many good options for you out there, including the self-powered PA speakers, but I'd definitely go with something like a full blown PA system instead of keyboard amps or low-powered monitors. P.S. I have had several KB-100s break down on me too.

[eric]

 

Originally posted by GigMan eric - Very ingenious indeed! But aren't you concerned that when drilling into your $567 dollar amps - ...that you might compromise the integrity of the sound of the cabinet? I'm guessing that it still sounds good, so it didn't seem to hurt it any - kudos to you! You have more cojones than I would...

 

 

Glad you like it!

 

When I bought these amps, it was back when they were not well known and I got them for $375 each! In any event, the screws are tiny and do not compromise the cabinet at all. No worries!

 

Regards,

Eric

[dan88z]

I used to do the small PA system thing and got tired of lugging it around, so I sold it and got a Barbetta. I don't think you can really find a single amp for under $400 that is going to sound the way you want it to compared to your bigger amp. I paid about 550 or so for my Barbetta. I think there are some other amps around that price range that are fairly small, high powered and clean. I have never had to turn mine up more than halfway on the individual channels and the master, it's that loud. I guess what I'm saying is the amps are out there but you probably need to budget a little more. Like others have said, you have some nice boards, why skimp on the amp?

[Allerian]

Have you considered a Carvin amp? While I haven't used one for keys, I can say that every Carvin product I have ever owned, used, or touched at all was far and away of the highest quality.

 

For $400, this looks like some pretty strong medicine:

 

http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=KB100&CID=KBA

[kikedeolivos]

 

Originally posted by Allerian Have you considered a Carvin amp? While I haven't used one for keys, I can say that every Carvin product I have ever owned, used, or touched at all was far and away of the highest quality. For $400, this looks like some pretty strong medicine: http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=KB100&CID=KBA

 

 

It's TWICE the weight of a MS KT-80, both having 100 W RMS.

[Darkstorm]

Prefers Peavey over any other brand for keyboards, bass, and multi nstrument use. Thinks you just got oe with a bad preamp, which is rare imo. Replace it with a properly working peavey. Which is easy, since they are in general about the most trouble freestuff out there And you will prob be very happy.

[wheresgrant3]

Originally posted by Darkstorm Prefers Peavey over any other brand for keyboards, bass, and multi nstrument use. Thinks you just got oe with a bad preamp, which is rare imo. Replace it with a properly working peavey. Which is easy, since they are in general about the most trouble freestuff out there And you will prob be very happy.

 

When it was working... it was working great!

[ExplodingBoy]

I cannot emphasize this enough and I'm sure everyone else will agree...

 

DO NOT CHEAP OUT ON YOUR KEYBOARD AMP!!!

 

 

 

A synth only sounds as good as the amp it's played through and I've seriously had cheaper amps in the past that made it NO FUN AT ALL to play my synth because it lost all kinds of range, had colorization in the sound and distorted when I tried to compete with the band.

 

I ended up dropping $1200 on a Motion Sound KBR3D and am SUPER happy that I did.

 

It's a true stereo amp with 2 solid state channels and one tube channel with a rotating horn and simulated lower rotor.

 

It RIPS quite simply.

 

It's also very nice to have a true stereo image with your amp because it makes the stereo patches and especially the piano patches sound much more realistic because they fill the whole room with sound. The speakers are pointed out at angles away from each other so it really does sound 3 dimensional.

 

I'm sure that I could get a little better range out of some powered PA speakers like the JBL IONs or the like, but the KBR3D has the tube leslie channel, is loud as hell, sounds great and is nice and compact so it's not too much to lug around.

 

I highly recommend that amp to anyone serious about their keyboard amp.

 

Barbetta also makes first class amps.