Prophet T-8; a dinosaur or masterpiece?

[clusterchord]

Prohet T8 is the "greatest" SCI synth feature wise with its velocity, Poly AT, weighted keybed (the same as on Synclavier II). But, i don't see it as greatest 'sounding'.

 

Teoman, you're right , it is the guts of Prophet600. all the same hardware elements - 3340 VCO, 3372 VCF/VCA, bit smaller polymod section (compared to P5), software envelopes. But, aside from the keyboard/velo (not small) differences, there's one thats very important - where P600 had one CPU governing tweaking of the knobs and envelopes, resulting in sluggish response from both, the T8 had deluxe version with, if i'm not mistaken, several CPUs. some of them governed firing off the envelopes exclusively, others dealt with memory/panel tweaks etc.. this way, T8 is one of the rare software-env analogs that doesn't suffer from slugishness. if not exactly as fast as P5, it's still comfortably close.

 

 

i'm not saying , i don't like P600/T8 sound, just that P5, and especially REV2 has the edge here in being called the 'greatest' SCI.

 

3372 makes it a bit brighter than 3320 filter in P5 Rev3, also quite smoother - more suitable for gentle strings/pads, that Rev3 doesn't do so well. otoh, it misses some of the balls and agressive element of the predecessor.

[Teoman]

Tom,

You probably know I am searching for a P-5. When searching thru possible sources in the internet, I came up with several Prophet-600 offerings which were interesting. People usually complain about its weak membrane switches, slow digital LFOs and envelopes, poor keyboard and overall build quality, etc. But interestingly its sound gets good reviews. People say its not as fat as P-5 rev.3, but definitely not too far away. These comments made me rethink my P-5 desire, its quite cheap, because people usually eveluate it in the class of PolySix, Juno-106, etc. which I don't believe so. Its at least a SCI synth. In case I can't find a nice P-5 rev.3 it seems to be worth considering. I'm still waiting for a response from a guy who has a Rev.3 P-5, so I delayed the plan for the MS-20 for that potential rev.3. But there is no guarantee that he will eventually decide to sell it, so just waiting

 

T-8 is definitely in an upper class than the 600, but still seems to me as a synth only for its enthaustism.

 

BTW, Tom you are looking for a rev.2 P-5 for which people say sounds great, but they also say its quite unreliable. So, think twice

[clusterchord]

that's true about P600. and beside atractive price, another thing that makes it an viable option for buying in US is shipping - its small enough to be shipped by USPS. and it costs aprox $100 to get it to Europe. i've checked USPS size limits: anything bigger tahn P600, like JP6 for example, cannot use USPS, only fedex, ups and others - prices are from $500 up !! so, smaller stuff you ship, with bigger stuff, you wait until you actually visit the States and carry it home.

 

My problem with P600 is, it would serve as another nice pad/string synth, or for other sounds where punch isn't of importance. and i've got those covered, more or less. the incredible punch and 'life' i get from a P5 is the most important reason why i want it. and P600 doesn't provide this..

 

i'm aware of REV2 problems, but most people here just 'heard' about it, didn't have any direct experience. it does get a worse rep than it actually deserves. most of its problems come from poor and underpowered, unstable power supply. another reason it got such bad rep is, people used to want to gig with it, and of course it broke down. I talked in detail with a tech that fixes Prophets all his life, who has figured out many hardware changes/fixes, new power supply, cooling etc. He told me, if you keep your REV2 at home at all times, and have the pwr supply taken care of, there's no reason for it to brake down. if not related with these two reasons, a chip failure is quite rare - not any different than CEM stuff in that regard.

 

 

anyways, Teo - if you really want a REV3 , just be patient. hunting down a vintage is a long, but rewarding process. especially doing it from Europe. if you're dead set on P5, you want be happy with P600 or MS20, you know how it goes..

[lofi 8 bit]

 

Originally posted by clusterchord more or less. the incredible punch and 'life' i get from a P5 is the most important reason why i want it. and P600 doesn't provide this..

 

 

Hello cluster.

What do you think of the software pro53 version of these synths?

You seem to know a thing or two about them, i'd be interested to find out how someone like yourself rates the softsynth.

[Miket156]

Quote by Clusterchord:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

i'm aware of REV2 problems, but most people here just 'heard' about it, didn't have any direct experience. it does get a worse rep than it actually deserves. most of its problems come from poor and underpowered, unstable power supply. Another reason it got such bad rep is, people used to want to gig with it, and of course it broke down. I talked in detail with a tech that fixes Prophets all his life, who has figured out many hardware changes/fixes, new power supply, cooling etc. He told me, if you keep your REV2 at home at all times, and have the pwr supply taken care of, there's no reason for it to brake down. if not related with these two reasons, a chip failure is quite rare - not any different than CEM stuff in that regard.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Tom, your tech knows what he's talking about. The design changes made between the Rev 2 and the Rev 3 addressed those very issues. Key element is using it in a studio environment with a controlled temperature (Air Conditioned) . A lot of vintage synths weren't rugged enough to be moved around, let alone operate in air temperatures that varied a lot. My first mini moog was horrors in large arenas where the temperature could change quickly during PA winters. So Sequential wasn't the only synth maker that had problems with their hardware being unreliable back in those days. A Rev 2 sounds sweet and works well as long as you do what your tech recommended.

 

 

Mike T.

[lofi 8 bit]

Originally posted by Miket156 Tom, your tech knows what he's talking about. The design changes made between the Rev 2 and the Rev 3 addressed those very issues. Key element is using it in a studio environment with a controlled temperature (Air Conditioned) . A lot of vintage synths weren't rugged enough to be moved around, let alone operate in air temperatures that varied a lot. My first mini moog was horrors in large arenas where the temperature could change quickly during PA winters. So Sequential wasn't the only synth maker that had problems with their hardware being unreliable back in those days. A Rev 2 sounds sweet and works well as long as you do what your tech recommended. Mike T.

 

Mike.T, or anyone else,

Have you tried the pro53?

How does it compare to the real deal?

 

Fair and balanced replies only please

[mildbill]

i had a T8 recommended to me by someone when i said i was looking for a board with nice feeling keys that had release velocity and polypressure.

after checking it out tho, i decided that they're too old, big, heavy, and expensive. and probably a lot of problems too.

and while they probably have the most essential features, they're probably lacking a lot of modern amenities.

i didn't even care if it had sound producing capabilities at all - just looking for the end-all controller.

i'm still hoping someone will build an RV/PP capable, lightweight controller with good feeling keys and modern controller features (assignable knobs, sliders, etc.) - fat chance, hey?

[Teoman]

lofi,

 

I have the Pro-53 and like it quite a lot. It has more than 700 excellent presets. I have no complaint about this softsynth. I remember some people find it closer to rev.3 prophets. So, I will never know if its true or not until I get my hands on the real thing Also, my Nord 2X has the original P-5 presets so I know at least what to expect from the real thing. As far as I know its capable of giving many generic sounds of the 80s, but with ''real'' soul.

 

Tom, I think you are right..What I do want is the P-5, not the 600 actually. So, a bit patience is really the keyword here. Having the desired one a bit late is better than having the one early, intended for the replacement of the original.

[Miket156]

Teoman:

 

Recently, there was a P5 on Ebay that went for 1250 USD. That's a pretty low price for one considering the condition it was in, at least looking at the picture. But any synth can look pretty decent if it was kept in a hard shell case and handled with care. The one difficulty is you never really know how hard it was used until you open it up. Buying a vintage board from someone that is the original owner that was taken care of is a better investment than one that's been passed around a number of times, obviously. I think its worth paying a little more for one in that situation, it will cost you less in the long run.

 

Stash away some $$$ so you can score the one you're looking for when it comes up for sale.

 

 

Mike T.

[lofi 8 bit]

Originally posted by Miket156 Teoman: Buying a vintage board from someone that is the original owner that was taken care of is a better investment than one that's been passed around a number of times, obviously. Mike T.

 

I used to dibble and dabble in cars and came across many one owner cars that would be in such poor condition.

 

I'd also find little summer sport jobs that often change hands a lot, like the toyota mr2 and mazda mk5 that may have as many as 10 or more owners and each owner had spent a little money, polished the paint work, often changed the tyres and oil. This makes perfect sense when you think about it.

 

Often the same can be said for synths and especially older vintage boards. Battery changed, lcd displays may have been changed, keys and contacts cleaned, upgrades?

 

The moral to this story is, don't be too quick to walk away from a well used example

[Teoman]

Mike,

$1250 is a steal if it is in good shape. In fact, the cheapest way to get a synth either used or new is to import it from the US. The most expensive place on planet-synth is the UK. In fact, importing from the US via e-bay or maybe via wine country (I don't know if they are still restoring and selling prophets) is a takeable risk, because it can't exceed $2000 including every other expense. The UK dealer rl-music restores and sells vintage gear for almost twice even three times more expensive. There is a reserved JP-8 for 2500 GBP (nearly $4000) excluding shipping and VAT, etc. They sold a MemoryMoog again for 2390 GBP. They are very clean examples but really expensive. So, I hope I would find any other alternative other than the UK. The one I am tracking in my country will probably have $2000 price which is not bad either, considering shipment and any other extras. BTW, if you know any other vintage dealers from Europa, excluding the UK, it would be quite helpful to me. A purchase from a specialist dealer with certain guarantee and an invoice for customs process will be preferable even if it costs up to %25-30 more than normal price, because I want it to be the first and the last Prophet-5 purchase

[clusterchord]

lofi 8 bit: Hello cluster. What do you think of the software pro53 version of these synths?

for starters, i don't like softsynths in general, except a few special ones that aren't avail in hardware. None of the analog modeling softsynths comes near the original, and overall softsynths have this inherent VSTi 'plastic' and lack of dynamics/sparkle/headroom. most important, they don't "breathe" and "talk" to you like a real analog. also, i always have problem mixing them - soon as the mix becomes busy , VSTi get lost, eaten alive by hardware synths. if you ever tried the original and the soft emulation side by side you'd know there's nothing left to discuss really..

 

still, not to say some of them aren't very useful - PRO53 is actually very nice, it has some resemblance, but it doesn't replace the real P5, of course. i use it when in a hurry, and if fewer instruments are used in the track.

 

only VSTi that i use regularly are pure sample playback like Kontakt, for ochestra, bass, drums etc.

 

[lofi 8 bit]

Originally posted by clusterchord for starters, i don't like softsynths in general, except a few special ones that aren't avail in hardware. None of the analog modeling softsynths comes near the original, and overall softsynths have this inherent VSTi 'plastic' and lack of dynamics/sparkle/headroom. most important, they don't "breathe" and "talk" to you like a real analog. also, i always have problem mixing them - soon as the mix becomes busy , VSTi get lost, eaten alive by hardware synths. if you ever tried the original and the soft emulation side by side you'd know there's nothing left to discuss really.. still, not to say some of them aren't very useful - PRO53 is actually very nice, it has some resemblance, but it doesn't replace the real P5, of course. i use it when in a hurry, and if fewer instruments are used in the track. only VSTi that i use regularly are pure sample playback like Kontakt, for ochestra, bass, drums etc.

 

Cheerz for sharing.

You say it has some resemblance, that maybe good enough for me to take a closer look. I heard some strange bell like timbres made with the pro53 soft synth, also one or two sound effects, synth drums that remind me of certain recordings that i know for sure were done with a real 5, so this soft synth has got me thinking. Not so sure about the pads and bass though, not from the presets in the demo?

[Miket156]

teoman:

 

I do know of a very reputable international vintage synth dealer that has his synths reburbished by Kevin Lightner, who is one of the best in the business. If nothing else, they are cleaned and calibraeted, power supplies checekd, and components on all the boards for leakage or potential failure. I know his service is not cheap, but the guy that sells them is a reputable dealer and offers a guarantee with everything he sells. From what I understand, its a major headache to have synths serviced in a number of places outside the US and he'd rather make sure they are ready to play before he ships them out. I'll get the information together and send you a PM. You can contact him yoruself and see what it would cost to get you a P5.

 

 

Mike T.

[clusterchord]

i must comment that i'm really sick n tired of the 'reputable dealer' auctions with unheard of prices on e-bay, all justified by so-called hi-quality service. when you talk with people from the trenches, i.e. the service techs, you see that prices for it are NOT anything near high to justify what this e-bay guys are asking (MiniMe123 comes to mind).

 

basic maintenance - key bushings, key contacts, vacuuming, capacitors and fixing pwr supply, checking all functions for malfunction costs in the vicinity of $60. when you say calibration it can mean a lot of things - but usually it takes 2 - 3 hours if the synth isnt completely fu**d up, so this comes to about $100.

 

i'd rather get a P5 that looks acceptably cosmetically (not beaten), and with seller garantiing all CEMs work, and have it shipped directly to a service tech to do this routine and than organize shipping to me after it has been serivced/fixed/checked. i did this with JP8 sucessfully.

 

i have two examples why reputable dealers are a ripoff:

 

i wanted a JP8. they asked me 3000. "professionally serviced, reputable dealer, blah blah". no midi.

 

i bough one that looked functional for $1550. had few keys chirped (mainly cosmetic). no plastic LCD cover. had it shipped to Greg Montalbano. He did the whole maintenance routine, fixed bender, one filter chip needed calibration, cleaned. changed all capacitors. everything up to spec. cost?? $60.

 

i must admit that the $3K JP looked nicer cosmetically (altough i dont give a sh*t), but tell me, how the hell do you come up from 1550 + 60 or some xtra hundred, to $3000, i ask you??

 

another example: there was exactly four OBXA on e-bay that went for 850-1000 in recent months. all CEMs worked, functional etc. if you have it shipped by seller directly to a tech for service - it sets you back from 60-150 plus sh.

 

Now, how much does a reputable dealer ask? guys like MiniME are asking $2400 :eek: some weird math going on there.

 

do these guys think were dumb or something?? its blatant rip-off.

 

 

just wanted to give some friendly advice - many guys here are GASsing for vintages and i'd hate to see them throw any of the hard earned cash if they don't really have to.

[Teoman]

 

Originally posted by Miket156 teoman: I do know of a very reputable international vintage synth dealer that has his synths reburbished by Kevin Lightner, who is one of the best in the business. If nothing else, they are cleaned and calibraeted, power supplies checekd, and components on all the boards for leakage or potential failure. I know his service is not cheap, but the guy that sells them is a reputable dealer and offers a guarantee with everything he sells. From what I understand, its a major headache to have synths serviced in a number of places outside the US and he'd rather make sure they are ready to play before he ships them out. I'll get the information together and send you a PM. You can contact him yoruself and see what it would cost to get you a P5. Mike T.

 

 

Mike, thanks for your input. I will wait for the info coming from you. Tom, again another thanks goes to you because you made me be warned against such people. Your method is really interesting. So in this case, as a buyer you have to talk to the seller about sending the unit to a good service and then ship it right from the service. And of course you will pay the price for the service guy, the shipment price to the service guy and normally shipment from the service to the end buyer. I am sure this logic saves serious amount of money for the buyer. If you import from a UK company it is twice worse, because they automatically change currency USD or Euro to GBP directly with one-to-one ratio. Even new Omega-8 sold from $4500 in the US is sold for 4500 GBP in the UK which is quite funny.

 

In short, Tom's vintage hunting technique is a logical one, but Mike, I am also waiting those names from you, mate.

[The Real MC]

minime123 is always high on his auctions and goes to great lengths to hide his identity. There was a thread on TGS a few years ago where someone revealed his identity and store location - minime123 hopped on that rather quickly, and the thread was deleted awfully quick. Not before I printed it out...

 

I mentioned that TGS thread on AH two years after the fact and he got real nervous - he even mentioned the store location referenced in the thread, and I never said anything about a store.

 

Sounds rather fishy to me.

 

He lurks on AH but contributes nothing of significance, and I've slammed him for fishing for bidders on AH. He has been banned more than once from AH, but keeps resubbing under new aliases and now walks this side of the grey line enough to avoid getting banned.

 

I haven't been the only one to slam him, but AH policy forbids discussions on ebay auctions.

 

He is a poser trying to make a buck fishing for bidders on AH. Rather despicable character, and I wouldn't be surprised to find him hot on my heels after this post.

[clusterchord]

Originally posted by The Real MC Not before I printed it out... He is a poser trying to make a buck fishing for bidders on AH. Rather despicable character, and I wouldn't be surprised to find him hot on my heels after this post.

i couldn't agree more. not just on AH, but on HC classifieds and on e-bay. i wanted to shout out so much during the last Omni-2 /Tantal capacitors crusade he did, when he tried to convince everyone he payed like ten times more per piece than the actual price. but, can't go against rules on AH.

 

p.c. can sometimes (actually very often) do more damage than good, if the truth is to be served.

 

ps if you'd like to share the address of his shop pm me

[clusterchord]

 

Originally posted by teoman So in this case, as a buyer you have to talk to the seller about sending the unit to a good service and then ship it right from the service. And of course you will pay the price for the service guy, the shipment price to the service guy and normally shipment from the service to the end buyer.

 

well, as always a lot depends on your negotiating technique. but with some good will all can be done. You need a tech that'll go into trouble of shipping this to you after the service - you can offer to pay him something for the trouble, by all means. he might even make you some kinda invoice (that we talked about earlier), or you can make one yourself, freeing him of any responsibility, and send it to him via mail to put inside the package.

 

easiest way, and risky of course, is to have the shipment insured to a 'smaller' ammount than its actually worth - to the ammount you intend your local customs to hit with duty or VAT. if this ammount fits your 'invoice' ammount plus shipping charges, you're pretty much covered.

[Teoman]

Now it is understood !!!

[Miket156]

Clusterchord:

 

Tom I know what you're saying. The only reason I mentioned a reputable dealer is that Teo said he's looking for a P5 in good condition and wants a guarantee with it. Most every vintage board I've seen on Ebay is sold "as is". Many of the sellers on Ebay are selling a vintage board they never used, or know little if anything about. Its pretty difficult to buy something that someone says is "working" but is sold "as is" and think that its going to be the same situation as one that has been refurbished and has a guarantee on it. Most of the players on this site are street savy and could buy a vintage board and get the service taken care of themselves. The risk is if you buy on from someone "as is" and you can't get parts for it, you're hooked.

 

You can also buy a P5 from Wine Country Sequential and get a refurbished synth with a guarantee. I don't know that WCS refinishes the cosmetics on their synths or if they just work on the electronics. There synths cost more money than an "As is" synth you pick off ebay.

 

There are reputable dealers that sell refurbished synths and don't want any negative feedback. The guy I referred to Teoman is in that business, ships internationally, and doesn't sell anything he knows has a problem or is unsure of. That is going to cost more than an "as is" synth. You have to decide which is the best way for you.

 

 

Mike T.

[sizzlemeister]

Why not check with the esteemed Greg Montalbano? His site is: http://www.analogsynthservice.com/ and once in a while he puts some up for sale. Looks like he has a Prophet coming along. He's a great guy to do business with.