Live Rig - Sequencer

[ned911]

Need to build a live rig based on a laptop to drive the sequencer. Main purpose is to produce a click track but figure might as well add some keys and other backing tracks as well.

 

10-12 years ago we used Cakewalk 3 and Cakewalk Live to accomplish this along with synths.

 

Current software is Cakewalk PA 9.03 and no longer have any synths.

 

Question is what synth should I get for this? And of course the cheaper the better, thinking a rack mount unit would be best as we don't need a controller on stage. Last synths owned was a Ensoniq SQR and Roland U-20. Drummer would control the laptop.

 

Appreciate any feedback and helpful tips/comments.

[The Audacity Works]

If your sequencer is simply going to trigger the synth, there's no real point in even bringing one on stage. Just put the synth part on the backing track.

 

If you also plan on playing the synth live, then... what kind of music is it? What's your budget?

 

And, of course, if you're looking for the ultimate backing track/MIDI file/triggered sample/click track player, that just so happens to be designed specifically for live use, there's always Showcase Arena:

 

[ned911]

Mainly playing rock - STP, Nickelback, Creed, 3 Doors Down, etc

 

Budget - cheap as possible while still sounding good. (

 

The Showcase Arena looks perfect. Where did you find it? the url in the ad does not work.

[The Audacity Works]

 

Originally posted by ned911 Budget - cheap as possible while still sounding good. (

I'd look at finding a used Roland XP-30 or RS-series board. They're lightweight, and come with a decent array of sounds. Or maybe an E-MU PK-6 or Alesis QS-6, 6.1, or 6.2.

The Showcase Arena looks perfect. Where did you find it? the url in the ad does not work.

It doesn't exist yet, and won't for at least a year. I have a meeting tomorrow with an investor/business manager.

 

The manual's almost finished.

[ned911]

Not looking for keys just the "brain" portion.

 

Thoughts on a D-110, U-220 for this app? What about a sampler (S-2000)?

[keanu reeves]

haha.. wow AW. are you really gonna try to persue your dreambox? if it were built sturdy for the road then im sure you could sell the bejezus out of those things.

[scarecrowbob]

 

Originally posted by ned911 Not looking for keys just the "brain" portion. Thoughts on a D-110, U-220 for this app? What about a sampler (S-2000)?

 

 

The S2000, which can be had cheap on ebay, can play midi files without any other hardware.

 

But if you just need a click, why don't you just use a metronome?

 

And if you are toting a laptop, why not just use a softsynth/softsequencer?

[ned911]

Metronome doesn't work because you have to change the setting for each song which creates dead time on stage.

 

Thought of getting the Yamaha Rhythm Station which has 99 song memory. But if your going to use a click track why not add a sequencer to help fill out the sound.

[The Audacity Works]

 

Originally posted by flukewurm haha.. wow AW. are you really gonna try to persue your dreambox? if it were built sturdy for the road then im sure you could sell the bejezus out of those things.

The hardest part is gonna be marketing the thing.

 

One, it doesn't do anything new, it simply takes existing technology that's currently very complicated to incorporate live and combines it all into a hardware/software interface that's dead simple to use.

 

Two, it takes way too long to explain to people (which includes GC employees who may one day sell the thing) exactly what it's capable of. Marketing majors would hate trying to sell it. No one will understand exactly what kind of box it is, so know one will know if they need it or not. Word of mouth or a brilliant marketing team could be its only saving grace.

 

Three, its primary market (your average live musician) is notoriously frightened of new technology, no matter how easy it is to use. Try convincing a guitarist that he/she could utilize a huge MIDI rig without the need for any MIDI knowledge. Or a drummer that he could incorporate triggered samples into his existing kit without assloads of confusing jargon. Or a singer that he could have all his harmony parts play behind him automatically, following the tempo of the band.

 

Four, with the web the way it is, it's harder and harder to get anything developed, due to the haters/technogeeks: "How come you don't have assloads of modulation sources for the velocity crossswitch point between the two sample layers?" "I have a used laptop that cost me $300 that does one-tenth of what Showcase is capable of, yet it's all I personally need. Anyone who'd spend $599 on your piece of {censored} is insane!"

 

That said, everyone I've shown the development kit/preliminary manual to seems very impressed. They all want to get involved.

 

My biggest hurdle right now is figuring out when to stop adding features. Every day it's like "Oh, dude! It needs to do this!"

 

Think of it as the ultimate controllable, programmable iPod for live shows, laid out so even the dumbest hairband member can use the thing. What GarageBand did for recording bands, Showcase'll do for live bands. With any luck.

[Guest Anonymous]

weird. will this be manufactured by the guys who own electrix? damned if that doesn't look like what they'd make after the repeater.

 

[edit: corrected dodgy syntax]

[The Audacity Works]

Originally posted by niall weird. will this be manufactured by the guys who own electrix? damned if that doesn't look like what they'd make after the repeater.

Nah, but I know the guy who currently owns Electrix. Maybe I should talk to him again about it. Briefly mentioned it at the NAMM show in January, but back then, it was barely a concept.

[ned911]

One way is to not continually high jack potential customers threads to market your vaporware.

 

Seriously, your idea is killer and I love your enthusiasm but instead of finding answers to my question I keep seeing your stuff which doesn't exist. When you release this at the price point you are aiming for I will buy one, but if you continue to high jack threads you might annoy your potential customers enough to drive them away.

[The Audacity Works]

Ah. Sorry 'bout that.

 

The U-220 is pretty old. You could get an XV-5050 pretty cheap (or JV-1010, 2020, 1080, 2080, etc.), or a Korg TR-Rack. Or an Alesis QSR. Or any of the several E-MU rack modules. Lots of good modules out there.

[pix]

Looks nice AW.

 

 

Why not go for a desktop design so you can easily access stuff in real time with no need for external triggers and controllers?

 

just curious....

[Analog Kid]

 

Originally posted by ned911 One way is to not continually high jack potential customers threads to market your vaporware.

 

 

 

 

Why dont you think of it more as a helpful "bump" to the thread?

 

 

If your question is what would be a good cheap rackmount synth, then i think you're explanation is a little confusing. Perhaps Im missing your intent, or maybe it would be good if you clarified what your looking for, or are you looking for advice on your entire setup?

[keanu reeves]

[The Audacity Works]

No, he's right, guys. I shouldn't have hijacked his thread. It's just that I'm always looking for the least bit of insight on this thing, seeing as I've spent so much damn time on it. Next time I'll start my own damn thread. Sorry again, Ned.

 

As per pix' question, there are several reasons I designed it as a hardware/software solution:

 

1) Computers aren't really fast enough to handle instant-start cues in the same fashion as a RAM-backed flash media player. Sure, you have stuff like Gigastudio, which loads the front nose of a recording into RAM and then crossfades into the hard disk track, but AFAIK, it's pretty difficult to implement. Besides, the load times are restrictive in a live setting. With RAM-backed CFC, load times are near-instant. Boot the unit, and begin your setlist within five, six seconds.

 

2) One would still need a MIDI interface with three ins and two outs, an audio interface with four balanced outputs (all switchable between line and mic level, to alleviate the need for extra DI boxes), a trigger-to-MIDI interface, a headphone cue mixer, and a bunch of cables, power supplies, etc. The point is to replace all that stuff. Might as well replace the computer too.

 

3) It's allegedly much easier developing remote software than proper DAW software (with multiple driver schemes, etc.). Plus, you don't have hundreds of people whining about not having every weird, obscure feature on the planet if your software's intrinsically tied to hardware.

 

4) MIDI can get really clunky when attempting to control a computer over the span of a stage. The STOMP pedals utilize something much faster and more robust. Haven't decided exactly which protocol to go with yet. Plus, the BigSTOMP footswitch is designed to display your setlist, cues, tempi, etc. so it has to be bi-directional. MIDI, of course, is not.

 

5) When your product is completely software-based, there's a good chance that the vast majority of your end users will end up not paying for the use of said product.

 

6) The whole point is kinda to not rely on a computer for your live show. I know many people have utilized computers live with great success (myself included), but crashes, slow boot times, latency, bugs, viruses... It's very difficult to focus on your performance when you're thinking/worrying about gear, even if you've been lucky thus far.

 

All right, Ned, I'll shut up now.

[ned911]

I'll try again.

 

Currently have no setup. Have a bunch of midi knowledge as I've been using Cakewalk since '88 and have used Cakewalk Live in a live situation.

 

Background: CW Live allowed you to establish a set list out of your CW files. It would then pre-load the songs as they came up on the list. You could either manually start the song or program a delay that would automatically start the next. This ran in DOS which was much more stable than Windows.

 

We need to establish a click track for our drummer. We could go with the Yamaha Rhythm Station or a sequencer. Sequencer would allow extra backing tracks (groups is vocal, guitar, bass, drums) that would fill out the sound.

 

The ideal thing would be AW's Arena box or Ableton.

 

I'm thinking of going to synth hardware only because it's less stress on the PC. Also thinking of a sampler so we could sample our backing vocals (S2000?).

 

So looking for advice on a live rig (doesn't have to be PC based) for the following:

 

1) Click Track

2) Backing tracks for piano, synth, etc

3) Sampler for backing vocals

 

Appreciate all the input and AW - you can't build that box fast enough.

[The Audacity Works]

 

Originally posted by ned911 I'll try again. Currently have no setup. Have a bunch of midi knowledge as I've been using Cakewalk since '88 and have used Cakewalk Live in a live situation. Background: CW Live allowed you to establish a set list out of your CW files. It would then pre-load the songs as they came up on the list. You could either manually start the song or program a delay that would automatically start the next. This ran in DOS which was much more stable than Windows. We need to establish a click track for our drummer. We could go with the Yamaha Rhythm Station or a sequencer. Sequencer would allow extra backing tracks (groups is vocal, guitar, bass, drums) that would fill out the sound. The ideal thing would be AW's Arena box or Ableton. I'm thinking of going to synth hardware only because it's less stress on the PC. Also thinking of a sampler so we could sample our backing vocals (S2000?). So looking for advice on a live rig (doesn't have to be PC based) for the following: 1) Click Track 2) Backing tracks for piano, synth, etc 3) Sampler for backing vocals Appreciate all the input and AW - you can't build that box fast enough.

I've known many bands who've attempted to run sequencers, samplers, complicated MIDI setups, etc. on tour, and all say the same thing: Don't. Machines of Loving grace eventually gave up and started running their backing tracks from a Tascam DA-88.

 

What I might suggest is to record your set onto CD or minidisk with the music on the left side and a click track on the right. Since the majority of small club PA rigs are mono, this wouldn't be a problem. If you really want stereo playback, maybe look into either a standalone hard disk recorder with marker capability (Roland VSR-880s can be found for a song these days, plus they have a metronome built in) or an audio interface for your computer with more than two outputs (i.e. PCM-CIA or firewire).

 

If you're still set on the MIDI route, all you'd really need to do is find a rack module with individual outs. Sequence your song's parts on channels 1-15 (or whatever) and sequence a simple click track (or drum track) on channel 16. In the module itself, route part 16 to go out one of the individual outs (i.e. not the main L-R outs) and into a small headphone amp. Voila.

[pix]

Hey AW,

 

I meant desktop vs rack, and nothing computer related...

 

I just like the groove box factor that's all. You could add some mute buttons and some assignable knobs and make it also a live performance thing...I know, I know another jackass saying that "it must do this".

 

Maybe that's not the idea. But I think the concept is great.

 

Wish you all the luck!

[The Audacity Works]

Originally posted by pix Hey AW, I meant desktop vs rack, and nothing computer related... I just like the groove box factor that's all. You could add some mute buttons and some assignable knobs and make it also a live performance thing...I know, I know another jackass saying that "it must do this". Maybe that's not the idea. But I think the concept is great. Wish you all the luck!

Thanks! Actually, I had originally designed the thing to be desktop-based, and Showcase Stadium (my high-end, audio + video version) will most likely be a rackmount box with desktop remote. As for Arena, I'm thinking of doing the whole Electrix form-factor thing, where the chassis is beveled, so it can be either rackmount or desktop. Don't know if there's enough room on the back panel to pull it off tho'.

 

The main reason I went rackmount was for the fact that they're daisy-chainable for more tracks, MIDI channels, samples, trigger ins, etc.