First Species: Two Part Counterpoint.

[WattsUrizen]

For those who were waiting for this, sorry it's taken so long. I've just finished exams, so I'll try to get these up fairly regularly.

 

Two Part Counterpoint, First Species:

 

Since we are familiar with the writing on individual melodic lines, we will begin the study of contrapuntal writing. Obviously, as the name suggests, two part counterpoint involves two simultaneous melodic lines. The lines are called the cantus firmus, and the counterpoint. Note that in writing the counterpoint, we pay attention to the same melodic details as we did to the cantus firmus. However, because of the extra vertical dimension that has been added, we have extra considerations to make. While this causes difficulties, it also allows for more beautiful music.

 

First Species is the texture where we match the cantus firmus note-for-note with the counterpoint. In other words, for every single note of the cantus firmus, we have every single note of the counterpoint.

 

The horizontal and vertical dimensions:

It is important to realise that the most important dimension in counterpoint is the horizontal one. We are mostly concerned with having two successful melodies. The vertical relationships that arise are consequential, but not defining. However, we can not merely throw together two melodic lines. I'm sure you'll all agree that this would result in something quite bizarre. Obviously we must also pay attention to the vertical relationships that arise, and carefully shape them in a way which not only preserves the character of the individual melodic lines, but supports and highlights them. Understandably, sometimes we must make adjustments to our melodic lines to avoid undesirable vertical relationships. It is important to realise that these adjustments should be mutual, and we should not only adjust one voice.

 

Vertical consonance and dissonance:

Consonance and dissonance are determined by their contextual relationships. Consonant intervals are stable sonorities, they exist in a state of repose. In contrast, dissonant intervals are unstable sonorities, and desire to move to consonance. In tonal music, consonances are the primary sonorities, and these provide a structural framework within which dissonances create tension and motion. Consonances and dissonances are not absolute. Consonances possess varying degrees of stability, dissonances possess varying degrees of instability. As we will see, some intervals hover in between.

 

So which intervals are consonant and which are dissonant? All intervals which can be used to constitute a triad, major or minor in quality, are consonant. These are the perfect unison, the major and minor third, the perfect fifth, the major and minor sixth, the octave. Thus the dissonances are: Major and minor second, perfect fourth, major and minor seventh, and all augmented and diminished intervals that are a result of chromaticism (for example, diminished fifth). The perfect fourth is dissonant, can not we construct the second inversion of a triad, within which the fourth is an interval? I'll come to this shortly. The fourth is a somewhat troublesome interval.

 

The consonant intervals:

As mentioned above, consonant sonorities possess varying degrees of stability. In general, we must be most discrete with intervals of high stability. This is because such intervals have little desire to move, and thus halt the motion of the line. At all times, except for the ending, we desire a continuous and flowing line. Obviously, the unison is the most stable interval, since we have the exact same note. Thus, the only time we should use this interval is at the beginning and end of the exercise, most preferably at the end, since its use at the beginning causes some limitations, which we will see shortly.

 

The next most stable interval is the octave, since again we have the same note, but we have a differing register, which creates some differentiation, and thus a slight amount of tension. Thus we can use the octave slightly more freely than the unison. However, because of its high degree of stability, we must be very discrete about its use, and its main use is at the beginning and end of an exercise, and rather sparingly in the middle.

 

Next we have the perfect fifth, the last of the perfect consonances. Here we first see an interval of two different tones. So not only do we have contrast of register, but contrast of tone. The fifth is a very important interval. It is one of the defining intervals of a triad, and thus is a very key-defining interval. Because of its high degree of stability, we must be quite discrete about the use of the fifth, although it can be used more freely than the octave.

 

The thirds and sixths are the remaining consonances. These are significantly less stable than the perfect consonances. Both thirds are more stable than the sixths. The major third is more stable than the minor; The minor sixth is more stable than the major. Because of their lesser stability than the perfect consonances, they promote motion, and thus are much more preferable to use during the exercise. Indeed, thirds and sixths will predominate throughout an exercise, except for the beginning and end where perfect consonances are desire for maximum stability.

 

The perfect fourth:

Above we stated that the perfect fourth functions as a dissonance. However it should be noted that this is because of our current limited scope. I'll make note of how the fourth functions in the differing species and counterpoints when we come to them. For now, I'll just mention that in two part counterpoint in first species, the fourth is a dissonance. Most of this results from melodic tension in which the fourth desires to resolve downwards to the third (we will look at suspensions in fourth species).

 

I'll digress a little with a brief reference to Medieval polyphony. In the Middle Ages, the primary 'kernel' of composition was the 8/5 chord. The consonance intervals were the perfect intervals: The third was not consonant. Thus the fourth did not resolve down to the third, since consonance does not resolve to dissonance. Thus when the triad started to become the basis for music, the fourth started to function as a dissonance.

 

We saw above how the major third is more stable than the minor third, but in the sixths this is reversed. This is because the sixths are inversions of the thirds. The minor sixth is an inversion of the more stable third, and thus is more stable than the major sixth - the inversion of the less stable third. However, while the fourth is the inversion of the fifth, we rarely hear it to be so, and this is due to that melodic tension stated above.

 

However, the fourth can indeed be a consonant interval, when its relationship as an inversion to the fifth is highlighted. In two part counterpoint in first species, this does not occur, but we will see shortly in three part counterpoint that we have situations where the fourth is a consonance.

 

Types of relative motion:

WIth two voices there are five possibilities for motion:

 

1. Similar motion, in which the two voices proceed in the same direction, but without maintaining constant distances.

 

2. Parallel motion, in which the two voices proceed in the same direction and maintain the same intervals. Note that consecutive thirds and sixths, even if their quality alters, are considered parallel.

 

3. Contrary motion, in which the two voices proceed in the opposite direction, without maintaining constant distances.

 

4. Inverted motion, in which the two voices proceed in the opposite direction, one voice an 'upside down' replica of the other.

 

5. Oblique motion, in which one voice remains stationary motion, and the other moves.

 

Obviously, in a note against note texture such as first species, oblique motion occurs quite rarely.

 

Note that we could condense this to three types of movement, since parallel is a specific case of similar, and inverted is a similar case of contrary. However, since they appear often enough in the literature, they warrant special mention.

 

Independence of parts:

Since we are primarily concerned with preserving the integrity of the horizontal component of the exercise, we must strive to highlight the character of the individual melodic lines. Note that the word 'independence' is not absolute, since we are also taking into account the vertical dimension. But it should be clear that within the context of species counterpoint, it is entirely possible to create an exercise that has this property of independece.

 

Of the various types of motion listed above, it is contrary and inverted motion which best promote independence, obviously since not only are the voices moving in opposite direction, this also means we are having consecutively different intervals.

 

Oblique motion only occurs in first species when we have tied notes. Considering the rather 'slow' rate of movement in first species, tied notes are note used greatly, and thus oblique motion rarely occurs. However, because one voice moves while the other is stationary, this significantly promotes independence between parts.

 

Similar motion is less independent since both voices move in the same direction. Of course, similar motion is more independent that parallel since the intervals differ. Also, parallel motion between certain intervals, the perfect intervals, creates problems we will address shortly.

 

Since we strive to create the most independence between parts, contrary and inverted motion will predominate in the exercise.

[WattsUrizen]

Parallel motion between perfect intervals:

Obviously parallel motion with unisons is just the duplication of a single voice, and thus we have no independence. Not only that, having consecutive unisons creates the undesirable situation of having unisons in a position other than that of the beginning or end.

 

With octaves, we have some contrast of register, however, since the tones are identical, we are still duplicating a single voice. This duplication of a single voice creates a hollow texture, and so when used parallel, the texture becomes very open. Also, octaves tend to halt motion forward, so parallel motion in octaves is rather undesirable.

 

Note that in instrumental music, we frequently encounter parallel octaves. These are the result of instrumental voicing and orchestration, rather than voice leading, and so do not represent an exception to the above.

 

Parallel fifths are also troublesome. Even though there is contrast of register and tone, their strong key-defining qualities halt forward motion. A succession of parallel fifths, instead of sounding as two continuous melodic lines, breaks down into a succession of different intervals, where we tend to hear each interval as a separate entity, and not the individual tones as melodic members.

 

Perfect intervals in similar motion:

Even when we are not using strict parallel motion, similar motion to a perfect interval can halt the forward motion of the exercise. Consider the situation where we have an interval of a sixth; the next interval is an octave, and this has been approached in similar motion (the top voice leaps up a fourth, the bottom voice steps up a second). Here we see a phenomenon called 'hidden fifths'. Here the listener mentally 'fills in the gap' to create stepwise motion to the octave. So in the top voice, instead of a leap up to an octave, the listener mentally fills in the top voice having a brief stepwise line which ascends to the octave. The point being that this results in consecutive parallel octaves, and so should be avoided. The same situation can arise if a third descends to a fifth - top voice steps down a second, bottom voice skips down a fourth.

 

This situation is quite problematic in two part texture, however as we will see in three part counterpoint, there are situations when this is not worrisome. However, we should emphasise that in all situations, parallel motion in perfect intervals should be avoided.

 

Parallel motion in non-perfect consonances:

As mentioned earlier, our primary goal is to preserve horizontal character. Thus too much parallel motion destroys this, since we have too much of one interval. Thirds and sixths should be reasonable equally distributed throughout the exercise, with the occasional fifth or octave to create novelty in the vertical dimension.

 

Also, we should also point out that too much of any one type of motion is undesirable, since this destroys variety. Generally most exercises will alter between similar and contrary motion, with occasional use of parallel and inverted. Oblique is the rarest of all.

 

Contrary motion in perfect consonances:

There is really one example of this, but it does show that perfect intervals are not as nasty as they are sometimes made out to be. If we have an octave and then proceed by contrary motion inwards to a fifth (top voice moves down a second or third, and bottom voice moves up - respectively - a third or second), this is quite a beautiful voice leading, is often used. However, one must also be discrete about its use in relation to the context, since two perfect intervals in succession could halt the motion of the exercise to an undesirable extent. Nonetheless, usually the contrast of intervals and contrast of direction is enough to offset this.

 

Simultaneous leaps:

Disjunct motion in both voices is quite disruptive, since it disturbs the continuity of the exercise. Also, it disturbs the independence of the voices.

 

Voice overlapping and crossing:

Overlapping is movement whereby the bottom voice moves to a tone higher than that of the previous top voice. So in other words, if the third C-E progresses to F-A. Note that the bottom voice is still the bottom voice, and equivalently for the top voice.

 

Crossing is when the bottom voice moves to the top voice, or vice versa. This should not be used, since in the exercises we are concentrating on voice-leading at its most pure, and voice crossing merely complicates things, and introduces factors which will be postponed to later, when we look at how species counterpoint is related to composition.

 

Spacing:

Generally voicing is that of between two adjacent vocal ranges: soprano-alto; alto-tenor; tenor-bass. So the spacing between two voices should in general not exceed a tenth. Two wide a spacing creates a very hollow sound, and while independence is increased, the relationship between voices becomes very strained. While independence of parts is important, we are also striving to create a synergy of parts, whereby the contrapuntal movement creates also a logical vertical movement.

 

However, we do make exceptions to the spacing of a tenth if a necessary and important melodic event occurs, such as the upper voice moving to an upper climax, while the lower voice moves in contrary motion. This is usually the only case where larger spacing than a tenth is desirable, and so after this climax normal spacing should occur. In any case, consecutive intervals larger than a tenth should not be used.

 

Tied Notes:

While oblique motion is useful for creating independence, having a tied note creates a large static area, and halts forward motion. Tied notes, therefore, are usually used to avoid an undesirable voice leading, rather than to create a desired effect. In that sense, they are reactive rather than active. In any case, two consecutive tied notes should not occur, and the use of tied notes in the exercise should be very limited.

 

Beginning and ending the exercise:

At the beginning, we wish to confirm the tonality of the piece. Thus we should have either a unison, an octave, or a fifth. So if the cantus firmus is the bottom voice, the counterpoint can be a unison, a fifth above, or an octave above. However, if the cantus firmus is the top voice, the counterpoint can only be a unison or an octave below, since if it is a fifth, then the counterpoint is heard as the tonic, not the cantus firmus. Notice that we can not invert the fifth to have the bottom voice a fourth below, since the fourth is dissonant. (It should be clear that in species counterpoint we do not pay attention to any dominant-tonic relations. We are only discussing voice-leading and contrapuntal progressions, not the harmonic aspect.)

 

Usually the best intervals to begin with are an octave (both cases) or a fifth above (when counterpoint is above cantus firmus). The unison is problematic because it requires one voice to make a leap, or the lower voice to descend.

 

The ending of the exercise requires maximum stability, and therefore the preferable intervals are the octave and unison. Since most cantus firmi descend to the tonic, the upper counterpoint will form an octave at the end; the lower counterpoint will form a unison.

 

In the penultimate measure, we require the leading tone and supertonic for the best voice-leading. Again, since most cantus firmus descend, it will be the supertonic. Thus the counterpoint will provide the leading tone. If we have an upper counterpoint, we will have a major sixth moving in contrary motion to an octave. If we have a lower counterpoint, we will have a minor third moving in contrary motion to a unison. Both are very successful voice-leadings. Note that as in cantus firmi, if the sub-mediant precedes the leading tone, we require the submediant to be raised to avoid the melodic interval of an augmented second.

 

Procedures of writing:

1. You should be able to sing the cantus firmi, or at the very least, hear it in your head. If you can't sing in that register, transpose it to suitable pitch. Study the contour of the melody: Leaps, climax, motion, etc.

 

2. In playing the two part counterpoint, it is preferable to play one part and sing the other. Try not to play the whole exercise on an instrument.

 

3. When writing, think primarily in the horizontal dimension. Try to maximise the melodic movement, and then use the vertical relationships to highlight this movement. More often than not you will have to make mutual adjustments to the parts, but you must remember that these adjustments must be made with sensitivity to the other part.

 

4. Plan ahead. Don't write one note or one interval at a time. Try to hear the progression in your head. Think of a general structure of the exercise, and think of how you can fill in the gaps. Sometimes you may need to revise the original plan for the general structure to accomodate certain voice leadings, but this is understandable.

 

5. Always check carefully for undesirable melodic and vertical events. Writing the vertical intervals underneath helps to check. Make corrections carefully, and make sure you pay attention to the exercise as a whole, rather than each individual part.

[r0g3r]

This is a great series of lessons. I find it a bit dissapointing that no one seems too interested in this. I think people should take a break from asking questions about sweep picking etc, and come read through this.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by r0g3r This is a great series of lessons. I find it a bit dissapointing that no one seems too interested in this. I think people should take a break from asking questions about sweep picking etc, and come read through this.

 

 

Hehe. People will learn what they want to learn. I'll post this because I know at least one person will read it (you) and so that's enough for me. Besides, it also increases my understanding of the topic.

 

I'll look at putting up some exercises soon... Maybe I'll work on some tonight.

[r0g3r]

Originally posted by Anomandaris Hehe. People will learn what they want to learn. I'll post this because I know at least one person will read it (you) and so that's enough for me. Besides, it also increases my understanding of the topic. I'll look at putting up some exercises soon... Maybe I'll work on some tonight.

 

Well, I certainly appreciate it

[Auggie Doggie]

Heh, this stuff brings back nightmares of Professor Bernie pulling out the individual strands of his hairpiece while Nicole (yum yum yum) kept insisting that parallel 5ths were "okay" and "nothing to spend undue time worrying about".

 

(I think she only did this to piss him off. Worked like a charm, too!)

 

Normally I love participating in the theory threads, but counterpoint is one topic that REALLY takes some time and effort to explain thoroughly yet economically. I think the entire concept frightens away a lot of players since it is light-years beyond any theory work they've done in the past. And of course, the textbook exercises that those of us who have been through them are usually painfully aware of how mechanical and rigid they can be.

 

Anyway, it's here for those who are interested in it, which is good. The fact that there are very few questions about this stuff makes me wonder if anyone is even trying to figure this stuff out. It's easier to answer specific questions than it is to start a topic from the ground level and start explaining it with little or no feedback from the gallery. So, as it stands, there is little to add a this point; the initial post texts cover the material pretty well.

 

I've also noticed that posts of more than approximately 26 words tend to alienate the impatient, but that's not something that's likely to change any time soon.

 

Anyway, that Nicole chick looked just like Mia Sara...

 

[ninjaaron]

Originally posted by Anomandaris I'll post this because I know at least one person will read it (you) and so that's enough for me.

what about me!

 

 

keep these thread coming! I'm using them, I'm doing the exersises!

[WattsUrizen]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie Normally I love participating in the theory threads, but counterpoint is one topic that REALLY takes some time and effort to explain thoroughly yet economically. I think the entire concept frightens away a lot of players since it is light-years beyond any theory work they've done in the past. And of course, the textbook exercises that those of us who have been through them are usually painfully aware of how mechanical and rigid they can be. Anyway, it's here for those who are interested in it, which is good. The fact that there are very few questions about this stuff makes me wonder if anyone is even trying to figure this stuff out. It's easier to answer specific questions than it is to start a topic from the ground level and start explaining it with little or no feedback from the gallery. So, as it stands, there is little to add a this point; the initial post texts cover the material pretty well.

 

Yeah, they are quite rigid, but the important part is understanding why the rules exist. They aren't arbitrary, and they shouldn't be taken as such. A lot of people don't understand that. They just think the rules limit their creativity. Species Counterpoint is an exercise which abstracts a certain aspect of music so it can be learnt without attention to other details. The rules are there to help you stay away from undesirable effects.

 

I've been going over this off and on for the past three or four years, and I'm still learning something new. And with each new discovery, it opens new doors for me when composing. That's totally worth the effort and tedium that crops up with exercises like this.

 

And thanks for the support.

[WattsUrizen]

Originally posted by ninjaaron what about me! keep these thread coming! I'm using them, I'm doing the exersises!

 

 

Don't worry, I'll keep these coming. It'll take me quite a while to get through everything. I'm talking months.

[Dave Regio]

 

Originally posted by r0g3r This is a great series of lessons. I find it a bit dissapointing that no one seems too interested in this. I think people should take a break from asking questions about sweep picking etc, and come read through this.

 

 

It's not that I'm not interested, it's that I have absolutely nothing add to this conversation. That's why you won't see me post here (or the last one which was way over my head).

 

I suppose I could chime in and say that this is a great thread, which it is. I'm sure the compliments would be nice and show that people are interested, but I'm not sure it really adds any value.

 

That being said, I have Paul Hindemith's Traditional Harmony at home and have Walter Piston's Harmony on my X-Mas list. I've dabbled a little in four-part writing (doesn't help that I can't play a keyboard for the life of me). I'm having a very difficult finding time between my work and practice schedule. I'm going to have to squeeze this in, as the importance of understanding harmony can never be overstated.

 

Carry on...

[r0g3r]

Originally posted by Dave Regio It's not that I'm not interested, it's that I have absolutely nothing add to this conversation. That's why you won't see me post here (or the last one which was way over my head). I suppose I could chime in and say that this is a great thread, which it is. I'm sure the compliments would be nice and show that people are interested, but I'm not sure it really adds any value. That being said, I have Paul Hindemith's Traditional Harmony at home and have Walter Piston's Harmony on my X-Mas list. I've dabbled a little in four-part writing (doesn't help that I can't play a keyboard for the life of me). I'm having a very difficult finding time between my work and practice schedule. I'm going to have to squeeze this in, as the importance of understanding harmony can never be overstated. Carry on...

 

Yea, I think though, that when someone puts forth this level of effort, it's nice for people to chime in and at least let them know they looked at it, so they don't feel they're wasting their time. It also serves to bump the thread

[Dave Regio]

Originally posted by r0g3r Yea, I think though, that when someone puts forth this level of effort, it's nice for people to chime in and at least let them know they looked at it, so they don't feel they're wasting their time. It also serves to bump the thread

 

Fair enough. To me, it would have seemed so out of place, given the depth of the conversation, to jump in and say "Great job!!!", even though it is.

 

In the future, I will express my approval to this and other good threads. In the meantime, I have a lot of reading to do.

 

My teacher stresses the importance of this at every lesson, but with a half-hour lesson, it's hard to focus on everything we need to focus on.

 

He's applying for a graduate program in music composition so he's all over this subject.

 

Anomandaris, these are probably the best threads on this lesson forum thus far.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by Dave Regio That being said, I have Paul Hindemith's Traditional Harmony at home and have Walter Piston's Harmony on my X-Mas list.

 

 

Both very good books. For good harmony books I also recommend Allen Forte's 'Tonal Harmony in Concept and Practice'.

[WattsUrizen]

Here is an example of writing a counterpoint to a given cantus firmus. Here we have only looked at writing the counterpoint, rather than altering our cantus firmus in conjunction. I know, I know, I said you shouldn't do this, but I just wanted to show how the counterpoint relates to the cantus firmus.

 

First, sketched in is the basic outline of the counterpoint. The beginning, the upper climax, and the ending.

 

Our first attempt is related quite well to the cantus firmus. However, the counterpoint is not a successful melody in itself. The biggest problem comes with the climax in bar 6. It is isolated by leaps to either side, and so does not become an intrinsic part of the line. Also, notice that the leap of a descending sixth continues downwards in stepwise motion, contradicting the desire to have ascending stepwise movement after a large leap.

 

Our second attempt rectifies that problem. We have made the climax an intrinsic part of the line by making it descend a second, and following this with a descending sixth to the leading tone which moves ascending stepwise to the tonic. However, there is another problem. The descending stepwise motion from the climax has created a sequential motive of a descending second.

 

The last attempt is the best of the three. Notice here we have changed the climax, by placing a high G before the E. Also, we have eliminated the tied note, creating more motion.

 

Another solution would have been to replace the high G with a low B, thus preserving the original contour of the melody. However, I decided against this since it created three perfect intervals in succession - notice that in the third and fourth bars we have an octave followed by a fifth.

[ninjaaron]

counterpuntualbump

[Notorious B U G]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris The rules are there to help you stay away from undesirable effects. I

 

 

I think this should be clarified to state that: The rules are there to help you stay away from undesirable effects when composing period correct music.

 

When composing a work in the style or J.S. Bach you must follow these rules to succeed.

 

But if you want to do more than create pieces in the style of J.S. Bach, realize you are going to have to break these rules.

 

Many, many contemporary composers use things like parallel 5ths prolificly in their works as well as break many traditional cp rules and yet create incredibly sofisticated music.

 

Ex: You can have a wonderful counterpuntual piece with parallel 5th here & there. It doesnt make it any less of a couterpoint "wonder" It just wont be traditional. They just didnt "like" that sound/effect back then.

[WattsUrizen]

No, species counterpoint is not fixed in a specific period. It is an abstraction of voice leading, and it is applicable in all musical idioms. Sure, parallel fifths occur in places, but these aren't actually 'breaking the rules' so to speak. They are figurations that are the result of a certain idiom. On a deeper level, the concepts that form the core of contrapuntal writing remain virtually identical.

 

Modern composers are extending tonality, but at its structural core, the same principles apply, and this is also why learning traditional methods is such a powerful tool.

[WattsUrizen]

A note for those who have attempted those exercises. I'll put up some 'solutions' when I put up the next thread in a few days time. I might also put up some more exercises in the two-part counterpoint thread.

[babybatter]

Wow.

 

This lesson is a total bridge from pop to classical for me.

 

I now have at least a crude foothold into the world of classical composition.

 

Thank you.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by babybatter Wow. This lesson is a total bridge from pop to classical for me. I now have at least a crude foothold into the world of classical composition. Thank you.

 

 

You're very welcome.

 

Hopefully you will be pleased to know that in the completion of this topic, I will have to start around about 50 threads. Perhaps more.

 

So hopefully by then, you will not have only a mere crude foothold, but a rather large keep.

[babybatter]

Originally posted by Anomandaris You're very welcome. Hopefully you will be pleased to know that in the completion of this topic, I will have to start around about 50 threads. Perhaps more. So hopefully by then, you will not have only a mere crude foothold, but a rather large keep.

 

 

Youre exaggerating....arent you?

 

Either way, im in.

[J the D]

I don't think you can truly understand counterpoint until you listen to Bach and break down what he is doing in is music. Some of his moves away from the tonic tonality and back still amaze me. I guess that's why we still listen to his music.

 

Counterpoint is typically done with the same valued notes (ie all eighth notes) but is it still considered counterpioint with something like eighth notes on top against quarter notes in the bass. Makes each beat have two different chords. Can actually be more difficult to avoid the wrong leading tones.

 

Comments, Amondaris?

[Notorious B U G]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris No, species counterpoint is not fixed in a specific period.

 

 

Sure it is!!! Everything in the freakin' world is cultural. That is, indicitive to a certain time & place.

 

The model of 1st species cp is the music of JS Bach not Thelonious Monk.

 

My original post was to clarify your statment of: The rules are there to help you stay away from undesirable effects.

 

The above mention two, it seems, had a different idea of "which effects were undesirable"

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by Notorious B U G Sure it is!!! Everything in the freakin' world is cultural. That is, indicitive to a certain time & place. The model of 1st species cp is the music of JS Bach not Thelonious Monk. My original post was to clarify your statment of: The rules are there to help you stay away from undesirable effects. The above mention two, it seems, had a different idea of "which effects were undesirable"

 

 

All the principles in species counterpoint apply to music from Palestrina to Hindemith. Sure, as we progress from Bach to modern times, the application of species counterpoint is less noticeable, but it is still there. Species counterpoint is an abstraction of universal (in Western tonal music, anyway) voice-leading principles.

 

Yes, different idioms have different taste in regard to 'undesirable', but you'll find that at the musical core, tonal music revolves around some very fundamental principles.

 

It's quite nonsensical to say that species counterpoint is only relevant to compose in the manner of Bach. I wouldn't post this if it were the case. It's relevant to anyone who composes tonal music.

[WattsUrizen]

Originally posted by babybatter Youre exaggerating....arent you? Either way, im in.

 

Probably not.