First Species: Two Part Counterpoint.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by J the D I don't think you can truly understand counterpoint until you listen to Bach and break down what he is doing in is music. Some of his moves away from the tonic tonality and back still amaze me. I guess that's why we still listen to his music. Counterpoint is typically done with the same valued notes (ie all eighth notes) but is it still considered counterpioint with something like eighth notes on top against quarter notes in the bass. Makes each beat have two different chords. Can actually be more difficult to avoid the wrong leading tones. Comments, Amondaris?

 

 

Bach is the best place to learn counterpoint of the Baroque style. But one can not jump in straight away to analysing his music, a groundwork needs to be established. Species counterpoint is probably the best method to introduce contrapuntus.

 

But to only learn from Bach is to only expose yourself to one period of contrapuntal music. You won't learn from Beethoven, Chopin, Mahler, Hindemith, etc. all of whom have very contrapuntal styles.

[r0g3r]

Even J.S. Bach doesn't stick to the rules of Species Counterpoint. Species Counterpoint also pre-dates Bach by over a century. He breaks the first rule in just about every piece he's ever written. He doesn't use a Cantus Firmi, his melodies are not all whole notes. The counterpoint of Bach is a more advanced form of counterpoint than Species Counterpoint.

 

I personally (and so do music scholars) view Species Counter point as a method of learning, and not a set of rules that you should always apply in your music.

 

Definition from schenkerguide.com:

 

"Species counterpoint is a method used for centuries to teach students how to compose the sort of counterpoint found in the works of Palestrina. The student is introduced to counterpoint in five stages. For each stage the student is asked to write a different species (or type) of contrapuntral line to go with a given melody in semibreves called the cantus firmus."

[r0g3r]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris Bach is the best place to learn counterpoint of the Baroque style. But one can not jump in straight away to analysing his music, a groundwork needs to be established. Species counterpoint is probably the best method to introduce contrapuntus. But to only learn from Bach is to only expose yourself to one period of contrapuntal music. You won't learn from Beethoven, Chopin, Mahler, Hindemith, etc. all of whom have very contrapuntal styles.

 

 

This I agree with 100 percent. Species Counterpoint studies should come before studies of J.S. Bach. It gives a necessary foundation for studying more advanced forms of counterpoint.

[r0g3r]

Having said the above, I defer to Anomandaris' knowledge in this area, because he's clearly more knowledgeable of counterpoint and Classical Theory in general than I am.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by r0g3r The counterpoint of Bach is a more advanced form of counterpoint than Species Counterpoint.

 

 

Absolutely. One can't go through the exercises of species counterpoint and expect to write music on the same technical level that Bach did. One also has to learn about the harmonic aspect, the thematic aspect, and the formal aspect.

 

Although one must be careful about saying Bach didn't use cantus firmi. Of course, looking at Bach's music, we often see a barrage of semi-quavers, which looks totally dissimilar to species counterpoint cantus firmi. But often we find in Bach's music, that the structural core of the melody is the humble cantus firmus from species counterpoint. All the extra notes are figurations and prolongations to give the contour more character and detail, among other things.

 

One finds that species counterpoint finds enormous application in traditional methods of composition, since it is a huge well from which springs ideas to fuel the age old musical tension of structure versus content. Perhaps the finest exponents of this were Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms.

[WattsUrizen]

Here are some exercises:

 

Here are the eight cantus firmi (four in major, four in minor) from the first thread. Take two of these, one in major and one in minor. Then to each of the two cantus firmus, write two counterpoints, one above the original melody, and one below the original melody.

[Notorious B U G]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris All the principles in species counterpoint apply to music from Palestrina to Hindemith. Sure, as we progress from Bach to modern times, the application of species counterpoint is less noticeable, but it is still there. Species counterpoint is an abstraction of universal (in Western tonal music, anyway) voice-leading principles. Yes, different idioms have different taste in regard to 'undesirable', but you'll find that at the musical core, tonal music revolves around some very fundamental principles. It's quite nonsensical to say that species counterpoint is only relevant to compose in the manner of Bach. I wouldn't post this if it were the case. It's relevant to anyone who composes tonal music.

 

 

I think your proving my point. I'm saying, If you say a statement like: "The rules are there to help you stay away from undesirable effects" Then YOU must be refering what effects your talking about , NOT cp, to a specific period.

 

There are NO undesirable effects in music!!!

 

I'm saying, if you use the terms "undesirable effects" you'd better be referring those effects to a certain style or period or you are just throwing out an opinion.

 

I use CP everyday in my Jazz lines. It is in the ear of the beholder whether I am using "undesirable effects". Certain things may only become factualy "undesirable" if after i was done I told you I was after something that sounded like a Back 2 pt. cannon.

 

There are no undesirable colors. But if i wanted a painting in 13thcentury fresco style & you threw some florecent(sp) pink in there, only then it would be "undesirable".

 

Pardon my ramblings, i just feel that anyone in the role of teacher must be careful not to close minds of students with terms like "undesirable" unless carefully treated in context.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by Notorious B U G I think your proving my point. I'm saying, If you say a statement like: "The rules are there to help you stay away from undesirable effects" Then YOU must be refering what effects your talking about , NOT cp, to a specific period. There are NO undesirable effects in music!!! I'm saying, if you use the terms "undesirable effects" you'd better be referring those effects to a certain style or period or you are just throwing out an opinion. I use CP everyday in my Jazz lines. It is in the ear of the beholder whether I am using "undesirable effects". Certain things may only become factualy "undesirable" if after i was done I told you I was after something that sounded like a Back 2 pt. cannon. There are no undesirable colors. But if i wanted a painting in 13thcentury fresco style & you threw some florecent(sp) pink in there, only then it would be "undesirable". Pardon my ramblings, i just feel that anyone in the role of teacher must be careful not to close minds of students with terms like "undesirable" unless carefully treated in context.

 

 

I totally agree with you here. 'Undesirable' is really an idiomatic thing, as you quite rightly point out.

 

I was talking, in previous posts, more about the relevance of counterpoint 'rules' to all tonal music.

 

So while I agree that one shouldn't follow the 'rules' arbitrarily, one shouldn't also break them just because they feel limited. It's also important to know why those 'rules' have been set down.

 

I think one would also find that it is the exceptional case where breaking the CP rules is musically justified and beautiful.

 

And of course, once one understands why these rules have come to exist, than one can better understand exactly what effects they prohibit, and also how one can compose successfully outside of these rules.

 

In any case, when I talk about 'undesirable effects', I am referring to tonal music.

[Reposki]

I'd just like to thank you for these threads... It's quite a jump for my theory, but I'll print 'em off and see if I can tackle it. You must've invested a lot of time in writing this up for us all. These seem like very useful excercises.

[WattsUrizen]

I'll have to put up some examples of how to go about doing those exercises just above. I've fallen behind a little.

 

Damn festive season.

[Reposki]

Originally posted by Anomandaris I'll have to put up some examples of how to go about doing those exercises just above. I've fallen behind a little. Damn festive season.

 

I'm almost thinking I should just go buy the damn book you mentioned in your cantus firmus thread... Christmas is coming afterall and I have no clue what to be hinting/asking for, heh.

[WattsUrizen]

I'd recommend you do so.

[Reposki]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris I'd recommend you do so.

 

 

I'm convinced, it is now my entire Christmas wishlist...

 

Being impatient and curious, I also found a pretty decent site on counterpoint: http://www.listeningarts.com/music/general_theory/species/menu.htm

 

Your guidlines are more explicit, but this site has some pretty useful examples to go along with the guidelines.

[WattsUrizen]

Thanks for the link. That should be very helpful to those who are interested in writing modal counterpoint, since I plan to only cover tonal counterpoint (as in the Counterpoint textbook I am following).

[babybatter]

uh....whats the difference between modal and tonal counterpont?

 

 

[WattsUrizen]

Modality uses the modes, tonality uses the diatonic scales.

[Darth Balls]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris Modality uses the modes, tonality uses the diatonic scales.

 

 

I always thought that the modes and the diatonic scales were the same things. Please elaborate on this.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by toydarian I always thought that the modes and the diatonic scales were the same things. Please elaborate on this.

 

 

Probably the main difference between modality and tonality is the dominant-tonic relation in tonality, which is the overarching structural force, powered by the leading tone's tendency to move to the tonic.

 

In the standard modes, there are only two which have the raised leading tone, the Ionian and the Lydian. The Ionian is identical to the diatonic major. The Lydian also has a raised fourth, which makes the dominant a much more stable entity, robbing the tonic of some of its strength: We have a sound which is somewhat ambiguous in its key centre.

 

It is this ambiguity which is characteristic of modal music, due to the lesser strength of the dominant-tonic relation.

 

HTH.

[Darth Balls]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris Probably the main difference between modality and tonality is the dominant-tonic relation in tonality, which is the overarching structural force, powered by the leading tone's tendency to move to the tonic. In the standard modes, there are only two which have the raised leading tone, the Ionian and the Lydian. The Ionian is identical to the diatonic major. The Lydian also has a raised fourth, which makes the dominant a much more stable entity, robbing the tonic of some of its strength: We have a sound which is somewhat ambiguous in its key centre. It is this ambiguity which is characteristic of modal music, due to the lesser strength of the dominant-tonic relation. HTH.

 

 

Cool, thanks for your input. Your posts now motivate me to more seriously study Counterpoint. Not as the unbreakable laws of the universe, but as a cookbook for flavor comparisons. I plan to also study classical compositions from a counterpoint perspective. What are a few compositions you recommend to study, with perhaps an emphasis of pieces for the guitar?

[WattsUrizen]

I'm not very familiar with classical music written for the guitar, since I am first and foremost a pianist.

 

I've done most of my studies on chamber music, mostly Beethoven's piano sonatas and string quartets. These are probably the epitome of the link between compositional sophistication and aesthetic/spiritual effect.

 

If you want to study classical composition, you should also become familiar with the idea of 'thematic transformation' which is the driving force behind classical music. See if you can find 'The Thematic Process in Music' by Reti. This is will give you an idea of what makes good music.