How to start a volume war

[Terje]

OK, I posted this as a joke in the Amps forum but since it is actually a kind of tutorial I'll post it here too

 

This is how you do (a three-step method taken step by step) :

 

The other guitarist has just played his solo. And he could indeed be heard well. At least by you (step 1). Now it's your turn and you're struggling to cut through

 

"What the {censored}? Has he turned up or what?"

 

So you hold that long bent note and reach over to your amp and turn it up a notch (step 2). Of course the other guitarist will notice (trust me, nobody else will) and before the next tune he'll turn his amp up a bit (step 3).

 

Now you've got it on! The roof is the limit.

 

It can be fun while it lasts but very painful the day after when a high note from both your solos seems to be with you still Wonder where that came from...

 

Actually, the amps take some of the fun out f it. Two unamped horn players trying to blow each other into the ocean is kinda fun, they have to use their lungs to do that you know.

 

But to be the loudest guitarist in the house all you need is the bigger wallet. Not as interesting. Better then to be the better player...

 

... but who has time to think about that when that other idiot is turning it up all the time?

[StratKat]

All tooooo true!

I found the hardest thing to do onstage is turn down BELOW where my volume was prior to a lead when my lead is over.

I also dont give in to guys saying "Hey man, youre not loud enough so turn up.!"

Scuuuuse me? Its not that im too quiet, its that you are tooo loud.

I like to play loud in the first place. So when you are over my volume you may be just a {censored}ING TAD too loud.



And if they refuse to turn down then they just arnt real musicians in my book. Just egos on a stage wanting attention and not caring about the band and its overall performance.

I mean {censored}, after 25 years of playing out i think i know when my boogie isnt loud enough.....and when yours IZ!

[Jimmy James]

I have a similar problem but it's not about ego. I'm the only guitar player in my band and I have a loud drummer.

In the larger venues I play it's not much of a problem because you have space to move around and I can hear my amp at a distance. The amp is also miked so I get a decent stage volume from the amp as well as it coming through the monitors.

Smaller venues with postage stamp sized stages are the problem. You're playing with the amp behind your knees and the volume and tone sound totally different on stage than it does 10 feet into the audience. What sounds like a good balance to me is always too loud out front. When you turn it down to make them happy you can't get off on your sound. And the drummer is still loud.

I've tried tilting the amp which is better but I still have that problem in small venues. I'm getting better at it but I always have to get feed back from someone in the audience as part of the first song sound check to adjust accordingly.

[dkitts2002]

Originally posted by Terje OK, I posted this as a joke in the Amps forum but since it is actually a kind of tutorial I'll post it here too This is how you do (a three-step method taken step by step) : The other guitarist has just played his solo. And he could indeed be heard well. At least by you (step 1) . Now it's your turn and you're struggling to cut through "What the {censored}? Has he turned up or what?" So you hold that long bent note and reach over to your amp and turn it up a notch (step 2) . Of course the other guitarist will notice (trust me, nobody else will) and before the next tune he'll turn his amp up a bit (step 3) . Now you've got it on! The roof is the limit. It can be fun while it lasts but very painful the day after when a high note from both your solos seems to be with you still Wonder where that came from... Actually, the amps take some of the fun out f it. Two unamped horn players trying to blow each other into the ocean is kinda fun, they have to use their lungs to do that you know. But to be the loudest guitarist in the house all you need is the bigger wallet. Not as interesting. Better then to be the better player... ... but who has time to think about that when that other idiot is turning it up all the time?

Ohhhhhh nooo!...someone else is living my life. I just spent my evening talking to someone about our volume problems, come home and read this!

[dkitts2002]

.........we are thinking of going to in ear monitors with some individual mixing capability to get around this.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Jimmy James I have a similar problem but it's not about ego.

 

 

I disagree with you.

 

 

I'm the only guitar player in my band and I have a loud drummer.

 

 

Cause there's your ego problem right there. A drummer doesn't have to be loud. He can also learn how to control his instrument and thus be a lot softer.

[djmojo]

Yeah I find thats usually the problem with volume... The drummer hits the drums like he is trying to get revenge on the guy who stole hit TV... so if you know any drummer tell them to play softer, they will also have more control over what they hit and when if they do that... and then they can accent notes by hitting them harder... but if you are always going full force, then your guitarist has to crank louder and cause ear damage to everyone...

we all HAVE to wear ear plugs everytime now, cause our drummer is just tooo loud... maybe his kit projects the sound really well, I dont know... Im sure glad I dont have another guitarist in the band because we would be fighting for volumes (but I guess we dont get to play cool harmonies because of that either )

[Terje]

Originally posted by djmojo we all HAVE to wear ear plugs everytime now, cause our drummer is just tooo loud...

 

 

Tell him there are other drummers willing to take his seat. Even if ther aren't. It can work miracles.

[Flanger]

Terje, I run my amps on 10, so I couldn't even perform step 2 =P

[Terje]

Even so I don't think it's a good strategy for avoiding volume wars

[J the D]

Our Strat player used to play a Fender Twin totally cranked and told me at one rehearsal that my bass rig was just not loud enough. The next rehearsal I showed up with a rig worthy of a stadium and of course no one could hear anything but me. When the Start player complained I told him I was only doing what he told me to do. That began our first serious discussion of stage colume and how to reduce it.

The Strat player now uses a little 30 watt Mesa TURNED AROUND ON AN AMP STAND AND FACING HIM rather than the audience. He is able to control feedback and sustain and everything else with the speaker facing him. The amp has a DI that does a very good job of emulating the speaker so he is able to hear and control his tone while getting a good representation of what is playing through the PA. Since we turned down (and caged the drummer in plexiglass) our ensemble has gotten much tighter and our harmonies are actually in tune with each other. Its amazing how much better you will play when you actually hear what you are doing.

[Terje]

Originally posted by J the D Its amazing how much better you will play when you actually hear what you are doing.

 

 

I know... actually what is amazing is how many of us that turn up so loud that we can't hear a thing.

[Jimmy James]

Originally posted by Terje I disagree with you. Cause there's your ego problem right there. A drummer doesn't have to be loud. He can also learn how to control his instrument and thus be a lot softer.

 

 

Ok psychic friend. He's a great drummer, he just happens to be loud. He knows he's loud and he's working on rectifing that.

 

Everyone has their cross to bear. No egos. Just dealing with each other's gifts and short comings. All bands have this.

[Terje]

A drumer who can only play loud is not great. He may be decent but he's never great. Drums are loud instruments. And like with any loud instrument, like for instance horns, one of the things you are required to know if you are to be called great is how to control that volume.

But the fact that your drummer is working on it shows that he may indeed have the potential to become a great drummer.

[Jimmy James]

Originally posted by Terje A drumer who can only play loud is not great. He may be decent but he's never great. Drums are loud instruments. And like with any loud instrument, like for instance horns, one of the things you are required to know if you are to be called great is how to control that volume. But the fact that your drummer is working on it shows that he may indeed have the potential to become a great drummer.

I never said he can ONLY play loud. He plays loud at times. He's a damn good drummer. He has lots of major recording credits and he gigs constantly. He's a bit loud at times when he gets excited. He can play softer but he has to work a little harder at it. I didn't say he was Alex Van Halen loud.

It's a subjective thing. There's loud and there's LOUD. I guess you'd have to hear him to see what I mean. Other than that he's extremely funky, in the pocket, and knows the difference between a Chicago shuffle and a Texas shuffle. It's important. He's a keeper. Nobody's perfect. Not even you.

[TheSandwich]

volume wars mess up band dynamics seriously. For a while I noticed my band was out of time, which shouldn't happen because we practice 6 days a week. The problem was my amp was competing with the drums, the bassist turned up to compete with me, and we couldn't hear the singer at all.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Jimmy James I never said he can ONLY play loud. He plays loud at times.

No you never said that, I said that. And in that case it is totally different.

He's a damn good drummer. He has lots of major recording credits and he gigs constantly.

Blah, blah...

Other than that he's extremely funky, in the pocket, and knows the difference between a Chicago shuffle and a Texas shuffle.

Now you're talking!

It's important.

It sure is!

He's a keeper.

I can see that.

Nobody's perfect.

Never said you were

Not even you.

Wanna bet?

Anyway, you said something important earlier:

It's a subjective thing. There's loud and there's LOUD. I guess you'd have to hear him to see what I mean.

I have a very good guitarist in my band who's a bit too loud. Meaning he's always the loudest thing in the band (apart from the vocals, he's not dumb). He's a great soloist and rhythm player and a huge asset to the band but... it's fascinating that he always takes the liberty of setting the volume for an entire evening.

When I hear his guitar I know what the volume will be like. I can tell him as many times as I like to turn down, he'll soon be up there again. He's not the worst, not by a long shot. And he's learnt to control his volume better over the years. But still, he's alwasy the loudest thing in the band, every gig, never fails.

[One Mun Funky]

Originally posted by Terje A drumer who can only play loud is not great. He may be decent but he's never great. Drums are loud instruments. And like with any loud instrument, like for instance horns, one of the things you are required to know if you are to be called great is how to control that volume. But the fact that your drummer is working on it shows that he may indeed have the potential to become a great drummer.

 

 

I have to agree. No, not with you. My drummer is just amazing and impresses me just at soundcheck. He's incredibly versatile, intuitive, and has just incredible control. He too is quite loud and is in the process of learning good control to be able to get the same vibe at a lower volume level. This makes him less than perfect, quite like you Terje, but having seen many many other drummers perform, I would definitely call our drummer, not only good, but great. That grey area that no one can define, that you just hear and feel, is what makes someone great. Improving his control will make him an even better player but as he is now, he is great, and would, and has put many to shame.

[Jimmy James]

Sound is one of those things that I do my best with, but ultimately I let it go. I'm the front man/singer/guitarist, and often times I say {censored} it and pretend it's 1964 ala The Beatles. The era of no monitors, crappy monitors, or no sound check.

I just play and sing my ass off knowing that I don't have anal retentive control over what the audience hears. I do my best and just play. Usually a great performance will make up for any technical short comings in the house mix.

There's nothing worse than an artist who beats up on the sound man all night long.

In regards to my drummer he's great when he funks out. It's the soft Wes Montgomery style blues that is his challenge. He may need some brushes for X-Mas.

[Terje]

Originally posted by One Mun Funky I have to agree. No, not with you. My drummer is just amazing and impresses me just at soundcheck. He's incredibly versatile, intuitive, and has just incredible control. He too is quite loud and is in the process of learning good control to be able to get the same vibe at a lower volume level. This makes him less than perfect, quite like you Terje, but having seen many many other drummers perform, I would definitely call our drummer, not only good, but great.

 

 

Let's try to define that word "great" now. Having full control of your instrument's volume would be one thing required for greatness I'd say.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Jimmy James Sound is one of those things that I do my best with, but ultimately I let it go. I'm the front man/singer/guitarist, and often times I say {censored} it and pretend it's 1964 ala The Beatles. The era of no monitors, crappy monitors, or no sound check.

I don't like soundchecks or monitors. And if you keep the volume low enough you won't need them

I just play and sing my ass off knowing that I don't have anal retentive control over what the audience hears. I do my best and just play. Usually a great performance will make up for any technical short comings in the house mix.

Once it gets rolling what else can you do? Just play and don't spoil all the fun for everybody else.

There's nothing worse than an artist who beats up on the sound man all night long.

Usually we don't have a soundman to beat up. The places are small and just have a PA for the vocals and that's it.

However, if there was a soundman present I can promise you that it would be my loud guitarist who would beat him up and not me.

In regards to my drummer he's great when he funks out. It's the soft Wes Montgomery style blues that is his challenge. He may need some brushes for X-Mas.

My drummer still asks my permission to use his sticks instaed of brushes. I see brushes as the basic way of playing drums and sticks as the exception. I just love that classy swing sound of brushes.

[J the D]

Originally posted by Jimmy James It's important. He's a keeper. Nobody's perfect. Not even you.

ESPECIALLY not me.

[robochimp]

Originally posted by Terje Tell him there are other drummers willing to take his seat. Even if ther aren't. It can work miracles.

 

 

 

 

Once when I was in a band, the drummer wanted to get a second guitarist. So I said" Sure, you know you're right about this whole'filling the sound out' thing. We should get a second guitarist...and a second drummer, too. You know, just to ' fill the sound out'". He never mentioned it again. I swear, this guy would hit harder whenever I took a solo.

[Jimmy James]

Speaking of drummers, let's argue. Mitch Mitchell or Buddy Miles?

[Terje]

Buddy Miles. Nothing to debate really.