Members johnnysixguns Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 i have a question for all you music theory buffs out there... is it really necessary to learn anything other than the major scale? i've getting pretty involved in music theory lately, but while i've been doing it, ive only looked at it from the point of the major scale. but with there being relative minor scales for every major scale, do i really have to learn the minor scale? because basically, even if a song IS written in a minor key, isnt it still in a major key as well? (Am being Cmaj is an example, i believe). and if i was too move it to penatonics, i could just drop the 4th and 6th notes in each scale? i've got the idea of modes down pretty well, so i dont have any questions on that. so basically, my question is.. do i need to learn anything other than the major scale? sorry if this didnt make sense.. im a little tired, and my thoughts are a bit jumbled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 555 Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 You've got your base laid, now start building. Work on harmonic minor, melodic minor, and whole tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingerpicker Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 I think the same way: trying not to get caught up in every scale even though you are probably changing scales by altering a single note (or two). I limit my scale practice to major, pure minor, and then alter notes when soloing according to the chord progression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members edeltorus Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 i've got the idea of modes down pretty well, so i dont have any questions on that. so basically, my question is.. do i need to learn anything other than the major scale? I think it depends how good you know your major scale, and if you happy with the way you can express yourself through that scale. For me it just don't sound right to play the relative major scale over a minor progression. Granted, it's the same note-material you're working with, but you play it using different voicings. You can play over any diatonic progression with that by just starting from a different fret, but you limit yourself to the voicings of each "fingering" you know (and as said some of them don't work for me). Just an example: When I solo in minor, and I'm in the root position of the minor fingering I can simply slide down 5 frets and have the phrygian root-fingering under my fingertips. That's a voicing I really like. On the other side I cannot play anything but boring scale-running stuff two frets higher in the locrian root-fingering position. Now I have the same notes available all the time, but all the notes are at different locations. They invite me to play different things. I can give my lead a different flavour this way, and as a side effect my fingers learn the other modes. That's how It started for me. As I knew how to play any scale finger-wise I started to put them into a different context (playing lydian instead of major for example). And all this worked without memorizing and practicing each mode on it's own. I practiced the minor scale inside out, and a good amount of the rest came natural. Just my two cents, Nils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 Originally posted by johnnysixguns is it really necessary to learn anything other than the major scale? Not really. Learn the major scale, all its modes and all their uses in all keys and you'll know more than most players will ever dream of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thamiam Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 Originally posted by johnnysixguns is it really necessary to learn anything other than the major scale? Absolutely! Take a look in a Real Book or other compilation of songs. You will probably see a lot of chords that don't appear in the major chord/scale set. Where did those come from? Were they just made up? For example, what's up with "alt" chords, or the "minor-major 7ths"? You should at least learn melodic minor scale theory as well as you know major scale theory. Remember, 40% of all songs are written in a minor key. If you play them just like you would play a song in a major ey, with the same note and chord sets, EVERY song you play will have the same feel to it. I would also recommend learning Whole Tone scale theory, and all five modes of the major pentatonic scale (FYI, the 5th mode of the major pentatonic is the minor pentatonic that everybody uses, but few people know the origin of.) You can then go into Harmonic minor and other odd scales. But definitely learn Melodic minor as well as Major scale theory. Again, I can't recommend enough Mark Levine's 'The Jazz Theory Book'. It is the best text on chord/scale theory I've ever seen or heard of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members djmojo Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 But what does it mean to play in a certain mode?? more to a certain finger position? If I amplaying over an E minor progression for example, and I start a lead on a G note, move up the scale to an A somewhere after a couple bars, bend nice and slow to the B (the perfect 5th) and then play a lick down to the D and resolve up to the E... I started on G but Im not playing lydian am I?? (sorry if Lydian isnt the second one, I dont have the names memorized yet)... thats the confusing part, its all the same notes... so what makes it so special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members djmojo Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 Okay well I was reading something by joe satriani on guitarworld.com in their lessons section, and he was talking about emphasising the root note in a mode... so Im in C major and I want to play in the relative E phygerian mode... he said you could play all over just E chords that have the same notes... but thats not fun, you cant improve that way, its like "hey you play this one chord over and over" so if someone is playing a riff in C major... how else can I emphasis this E note?? other than just playing long E notes every bar? is there a way you can explain this to us that arent all CRAZY theory students or anything? Ive been reading so much but they all seem to avoid this part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thamiam Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 OK, let me try to break this down into some simple to understand components. First, let's make one thing clear: SCALE & CHORD ARE DIFFERENT NAMES FOR THE SAME THING. If somebody says "Play a C Major Scale", they could also say "Play a C Major Chord, but play each note of the chord separately in some predetermined order." If they say "Play a C Major Chord", they could just as easily say "Play a C Major Scale all at once." Try to completely clear the terms "chord" and "scale" from your mind, and replace both of them with "chord/scale". That is the basis of chord/scale theory, AKA jazz theory, AKA modal theory. This concept must be absolutely clear, so I'll stop here and wait for questions before preceding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J the D Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 You need to disassociate notes with a a particular finger position. I would suggest starting your practice routine doing the circle of 5ths, each scale at least two octaves, so that you learn to be completely confident in any key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thamiam Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 Originally posted by J the D You need to disassociate notes with a a particular finger position. I would suggest starting your practice routine doing the circle of 5ths, each scale at least two octaves, so that you learn to be completely confident in any key. Excellent point. Also learn to practice scales starting on any degree, not just the root. One good method is to practice every scale across the entire range of your guitar, starting on a low E, F, or F# regardless of the scale, and turning around at the top of your range (high C, C#, or D) regardless of whether or not that is the root. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members djmojo Posted December 17, 2002 Members Share Posted December 17, 2002 yeah I understand that chords are made up of notes from the scale and the scales are just all the notes in a bunch of chords... understood,.. but how do I emphasis the root of a mode... like Im playing in E phygerian over your D minor riff... how do you know Im playing E phygerian?? I could start on E and end on D then what is it? thats what I mean... unless I play the scale from start to finish and back again, how do you tell the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thamiam Posted December 18, 2002 Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 I'm getting there. I just don't want this to be confusing, so I am taking it step by step. OK, now let me make one more concept very clear. MYTH: Mode = A scale starting on a different degree. That is not a mode. That is a shortcut to get to a mode. A mode is a scale. A scale is a mode. A chord is a scale. A scale is a chord. Hence, A MODE IS A CHORD. Let's look at the example of E dorian (the second mode of D Major). This is what the E Dorian chord/scale looks like. E F# G A B C# D This is a chord/scale with a Root of E. NOTE: This IS NOT a "D major scale starting on an E". The Root of the chord is E, and everything is built off of that. The chord has a flat 3rd, and a flat 7th. This is the definition of the Dorian Mode. Dorian Mode = A chord/scale exactly like the major scale with the same root (E!), but with a flat 3rd and a flat 7th. Let me make that point a little clearer. MODE = CHORD/SCALE Mode does not equal "Scale starting on..." You can play any scale you like starting anywhere, it doesn't change the scale. Now, some people don't like to think of flat 3rds and flat 7ths and what not, but it turns out that theory is basically symettrical. That means there are lots of shortcuts to get from one place to another. One of these shortcuts is: If you play a major scale starting on a different note, you get a chord/scale with the SAME QUALITY as one of the 7 modes, but with a DIFFERENT ROOT. This is the shortcut. The problem is that most people are taught the shortcut, and nothing else. Try giving somebody directions to your house using only shortcuts. They will get there quicker, but ask them where they are and how to get somewhere else, and they are lost. Gve somebody a map and a few guidelines, and they can get anywhere they want, including your house, and always know where they are and where to go next. It's kind of a stupid analogy, but I hope you get the point. So...If somebody telly you to play an E Dorian sclae over a particular riff, and you play a D Major scale starting on E, you will always sound like you are playing a D Major scale. You will land on the same strong points as if you were playing a D Major scale, you will lead to the same notes. There will be no difference whatsoever. If, on the other hand, you play an E major scale with a flat 3rd and a flat 7th, you actually can resolve to the E. It will sound like you are playing in E. You wil choose notes that are strong in E, not in D. This is a really big difference, because the strong notes in a scale are always 2 NOTES away from each other. If you just shift things over, suddenly you are playing all the weak notes as strong notes. You have to think CHORD/SCALE, not scale. Let's try this. Lydian is the 4th mode. If you ask me what chord I am playing, and I answer "Bb Lydian", what chord/scale am I playing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnnysixguns Posted December 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 well, i havent really gotten to go back and read the entire thread here, but i will be sure too, since it looks as if there is alot of valuable information in here.. but for me to elaborate on how i have come to think of all this... currently, i can play the major scale in any key, anywhere on the neck. i can freely and easily play up and down the neck across all the strings without messing up. i pretty much honed my ability to do this by paying attention to where the pattern changes are in relation to each fret (did that make sense?). and like i also said, im pretty familiar with my modes. one thing i noticed was that someone said a mode is a scale/chord all its own. and that playing the major scale on a different note is just a shortcut to getting to that mode. but isnt that still the same as like, if i could freely play the Gmaj scale, but starting on the root of say, B, and emphasize that note, arent i really still just playing the same thing? what i've done in my learning is to learn to relate every scale to the major scale. example: major scale - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, harmonic minor - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 8, melodic minor - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8, natural minor - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8. and usually, if i wanted to write a song in the key of say, Gm, i'd go to its relative major scale, choose my chords from that, and then relate the write the song as if it was Gm. so if i wanted to write a 1-5-2 progression, id play Gm, Cmaj, Amaj for the key of Gm instead of Emaj, Bmaj, F#min as it would be in the key of E (i think i got that right? as i said, i base everything from the major scale, and if i remember correctly, the chord structure patterns are maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, maj) then if i wanted to add fills or solo's to that song, id also emphasize those as being in Gm more than i would E. so does this make sense to anyone? am i following the right idea? *edit*- i just looked up the the chord structure patterns, and they are maj, min, min, maj, maj, min, dim.. and the dim can be substituted for another min Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnnysixguns Posted December 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 Originally posted by thamiam Let's try this. Lydian is the 4th mode. If you ask me what chord I am playing, and I answer "Bb Lydian", what chord/scale am I playing? F#maj? correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thamiam Posted December 18, 2002 Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 Originally posted by johnnysixguns F#maj? correct? Nope. And I didn't ask "what major scale is this the Lydian Mode of?" That's exactly the backwards way of thinking. Answer like this (for example):Chord: Jb minor 7Scale: Jb Yb D Fbb Zb L B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnnysixguns Posted December 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 Originally posted by thamiam Nope. And I didn't ask "what major scale is this the Lydian Mode of?" That's exactly the backwards way of thinking. Answer like this (for example): Chord: Jb minor 7 Scale: Jb Yb D Fbb Zb L B whoa alright, i dont know if you threw all that into one of your earlier posts, so im gonna go back and read it better, but could you elaborate on that some more? i dont know my modes as well as i thought i did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thamiam Posted December 18, 2002 Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 Here's a hint. It is going to be "Bb something" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnnysixguns Posted December 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 hmm... i dont have a clue. all i know is that the lydian is 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8. i now see i need to organize my thoughts on modes a great deal better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnnysixguns Posted December 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 *off topic*and by the way, thamiam... im from nome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnnysixguns Posted December 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 is it Bbdim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingerpicker Posted December 18, 2002 Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 If somebody says "Play a C Major Scale", they could also say "Play a C Major Chord, but play each note of the chord separately in some predetermined order." If they say "Play a C Major Chord", they could just as easily say "Play a C Major Scale all at once." ________________________________________________ ....No( C major chord is not c,d,e,f,g,a,b,c) Even when you play them seperate, whatever order, its root third fifth.. Let's try this. Lydian is the 4th mode. If you ask me what chord I am playing, and I answer "Bb Lydian", what chord/scale am I playing? ________________________________________ Bb-C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb =Bb lydian (F major) Although scale degrees make up chords, the above scale is NOT a chord and the terms shouldn't be used as such. If I was sitting in on a gig with you and asked "what chord are you playing" and you say Bb lydian, I wouldn't know what you were talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnnysixguns Posted December 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 i was thinking the same thing, but i also think i understand what hes talking about... playing a Cmaj chord vs a Cmaj scale is different. the Cmaj chord is comprised only of the 1, 3, and 5 degrees of the scale, whereas the scale itself has 7 degrees (8, including the octave), which allow for a multitude of other chords to be played while still fitting in the Cmaj scale (1,3,5 = Cmaj... 1,2,5 = Csus2). so playing the scale would allow for notes in the chord, just as playing the chord would allow for notes in the scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingerpicker Posted December 18, 2002 Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 yeah, I understand what he is inferring as well, but I already know this stuff!! If I wasn't too familliar with theory and read this post I'd be most confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members johnnysixguns Posted December 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted December 18, 2002 yes, i can see where others could be confused as well..im just new here, and im trying not too offend. so im sorry if i seem coy or smartassish... right now, i've had one-too-many beers, and i try to be a very cordial person who im inebriated, even if i dont come across as such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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