is it really necessary to learn anything other than the major scale?

[djmojo]

I think he did a good job at explaining what he meant, unless I read into and Im more confused than I think I am.

I think he means the sounds and flavour of scales and chords are the same, so instead of learning all these other names (diminished chord, sus7, add9 blah blah) we just learn the modes that are assosiated with the same sort of sound? I think Im just way off... help me if I am.

[Dave Regio]

Originally posted by djmojo ... how else can I emphasis this E note?? other than just playing long E notes every bar? is there a way you can explain this to us that arent all CRAZY theory students or anything? Ive been reading so much but they all seem to avoid this part.

 

 

If you are playing E phrygian ideas over the key of C major, you're still playing diatonically, or inside the key (since E phrygian and C Ionian (major) contain the same notes).

 

How do you make using E phrygian interesting? Try an arpeggio...let's say Emin7.

 

E, G, B, D

 

If I add the root of C to this arpeggio...

 

C, E, G, B, D...In terms of chord tones...

 

1, 3, 5, 7, 9...Cmaj9 chord. If you drop the C (the 1), you have an Emin7 arpeggio (I know this is a lot to absorb but there are no shortcuts to this...be patient) you have an arpeggio that consists of the third, fifth, seventh and ninth tones of the Cmaj9 chord.

 

It's an arpeggio that Miles frequently used and it's adds an interesting flavor. I am starting to incorporate it into my playing (for the most part, I've used Lydian ideas when improvising with the Dorian scale - a la So What).

 

Using phrygian ideas over the relative major chord is a good idea because you are focusing on the E, which is the third of C. The third is a strong chord tone.

[djmojo]

Okay thanks, but how do I make that thing you said focus on the note E... I mean, when you are improvising, I dont know how to make it sound good... it just sounds like Im playing C major, not any other flavour... wow I started on E and then its C major... thats what I mean.... how do I add tension so it seems like it should resolve to E... even tho the underlying chord structure is in C maj... know what I mean?

are there any easy rules to follow... like the 3rd of a scale resolves well to its root, so then I play the G and start the next bar on the E? thats where Im confused.

[Reeko2]

While most of this stuff is interesting, I think that the idea that a Chord = A scale is misleading.

Example, a Dmin7 chord actually can be part of 3 different Scales, D Dorian, or E Phyrigian, or A Aeolean (sp?).

Now, a helpful idea (IMHO) is to emphasize chord tones when playing, especially the third and 7th, and of course Root.

Modal playing really makes more sense to me that have chord sequences that don't fit in the same key, ussually Jazz based. Where you ussually have a few chord that fit in one key, then a change to another key. In that case, it becomes very helpful to look at (for example) a D7 chord and know that D mixolydian will fit over that chord for 2 measures for example. Rather than trying to figure out what Key signature you temperarily moved to.

One thing my teacher told me that works well. Start with just playing arpeggios of the chord, or maybe just 2 notes from the chord (1,3 or 3 ,7) this keeps you centered around the chord.

Oh, someone mentioned Joe Satriani. One thing he likes to do is play over chords (or have the bass played play riffs) that are neither Maj or Minor, like C5 power chords. He then switch between many modes centered around C. He might play 2-3 measures of C Phrygian, then play C Lydian, or Locrian. This really emphasizes the Mode Change, since it stays realtive to C.
I think this is called Pitch Axis Theory.

[thamiam]

Originally posted by johnnysixguns i was thinking the same thing, but i also think i understand what hes talking about... playing a Cmaj chord vs a Cmaj scale is different. the Cmaj chord is comprised only of the 1, 3, and 5 degrees of the scale, whereas the scale itself has 7 degrees (8, including the octave), which allow for a multitude of other chords to be played while still fitting in the Cmaj scale (1,3,5 = Cmaj... 1,2,5 = Csus2). so playing the scale would allow for notes in the chord, just as playing the chord would allow for notes in the scale.

 

 

johnnysixgun & fingerpicker...

 

I meant exactly what I said. A chord is not Root-Third-Fifth. That is a triad, and even then only one subset of triads. That is only part of a chord. In chord/scale theory (aka jazz theory, aka modern theory, which is what I have been talking about and how I always answer theory questions) a chord involves all of the scale tones.

 

So a chord is:

Root 3 5 7 9 11 13 Octave

 

And a scale is:

Root 9 3 11 5 13 7 Octave

 

And they are both a chord/scale, which is really more accurate than just chord or just scale.

 

As for the chord naming, it may depend on what circles you play in. But if someone is describing a piece of music to me and they write the chord symbol "B major #4", 9 times out of 10 if I ask them the name of the chord, they will say "B Lydian". Same thing if the chord symbol is Dmin7 and there is a natural 6th in the melody or harmony, they will say "D Dorian", instead of "D natural-minor 7th with a raised 6th"

 

I understand there are lots of different ways of doing things. They terminology I use is absolutely correct in its context, and we just need to match our contexts to one another to clear up some of this confusion. Good thread....

 

Same thing, different order. Always.

[Dave Regio]

Originally posted by djmojo Okay thanks, but how do I make that thing you said focus on the note E... I mean, when you are improvising, I dont know how to make it sound good... it just sounds like Im playing C major, not any other flavour... wow I started on E and then its C major... thats what I mean.... how do I add tension so it seems like it should resolve to E... even tho the underlying chord structure is in C maj... know what I mean? are there any easy rules to follow... like the 3rd of a scale resolves well to its root, so then I play the G and start the next bar on the E? thats where Im confused.

 

 

If you want to focus or resolve to E, play G mixolydian ideas (imply the V chord in your playing). Why does this work? The F will add significant tension, and as the fourth tone of the C scale, it will want to resolve toward E.

 

While E phrygian ideas will add color to your playing over a Cmaj7 (in the key of C), to add tension to your playing to add tension, incoroporate G mixolydian ideas into your playing.

 

I don't have a guitar with me now, but try this and see if this is what you're looking for...play a G7 arpeggio followed by a simple E (after you finish with the G7 arpeggio should slide your finger back one fret, as we go from F to E).

[johnnysixguns]

Originally posted by thamiam I understand there are lots of different ways of doing things. They terminology I use is absolutely correct in its context, and we just need to match our contexts to one another to clear up some of this confusion. Good thread.... Same thing, different order. Always.

alright, now i understand what you're saying a little bit more. thanks.

i think im gonna learn alot here .. for the past while, ive been stuck at mx

[Fred5]

I hereby deem this thread bumpworthy.